My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

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yeodoug
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My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by yeodoug »

Hello all,

For the last year-and-a-half, Dave Butler of Butler Trombones has been working to make, at my request, a carbon fiber bell and main tuning slide to retrofit on one of my bass trombones. Happily, I received these parts earlier this week and along with the carbon fiber outer slide that Dave made for me last that I have been using since last April, I now have a bass trombone whose weight has been reduced from six to four pounds. And it sounds great.

I've written an article about how this all came about along with my impressions of these important developments to my horn and playing. You can see the article here:

www.thelasttrombone.com/2018/11/20/my-n ... not-a-toy/

My conclusion:
We are witnessing one of the most significant developments in trombone design and manufacturing since the invention of the F-attachment in 1839. This is not an exaggeration; of this I am quite serious. The future is now.
-Douglas Yeo

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Douglas Yeo
Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra, 1985-2012 (retired)
Trombone Professor, Wheaton College, Illinois
Clinical Associate Professor of Trombone, University of Illinois (2022-2023)
www.yeodoug.com
www.thelasttrombone.com
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Kingfan
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Kingfan »

Sometimes progess is in tiny steps, sometimes it's in a major leap. Sounds like this is the latter! I hope I'm still playing when the pricing drops enough for me to be able to afford carbon fiber trombones.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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norbie2018
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by norbie2018 »

What could potentially bring the cost down is Yamaha licensing the carbon fiber bell/slide tech from Butler.
timothy42b
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by timothy42b »

norbie2018 wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:16 am What could potentially bring the cost down is Yamaha licensing the carbon fiber bell/slide tech from Butler.
I don't know what process was used. After initial setup, filament wound bells would be cheaper to make than brass. That's the way fuel tanks are made, for example. The Dell slides were prepreg sleeves with lots of hand work. Hobbyists who make gliders, kayaks, etc., are using wet layup and a vacuum bag, again lots of labor involved.
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hyperbolica
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by hyperbolica »

$3000 for a new small bore horn is not that much. A new Lawler is ~$2600, and a new King 3B is ~$2200. I think that price for the small bore is certainly reasonable. The YBL822 is ~$4800, so it wouldn't be out of line if the Butler bass comes in maybe around $6000, which is still competitive with Shires and Edwards. I think the pricing of the horns on their site makes these affordable for people buying new instruments. I'd love to try the JJ model, but the basses make the most sense, as Mr. Yeo points out, with the weight loss. It's great also that they are modular.
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hyperbolica
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by hyperbolica »

timothy42b wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:25 am I don't know what process was used. After initial setup, filament wound bells would be cheaper to make than brass. That's the way fuel tanks are made, for example. The Dell slides were prepreg sleeves with lots of hand work. Hobbyists who make gliders, kayaks, etc., are using wet layup and a vacuum bag, again lots of labor involved.
Automated winding will only work if the volumes become pretty high. The site says they use prepreg sheets, hand laid, as it's most efficient and optimizes resin/fiber ratio. Very exciting to see this priced at realistic levels.

I'd be interested in hearing a long-term evaluation of the outer slide. Does it really keep its true, and how is the fiber on chrome glide compared to brass on chrome?
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Kbiggs »

Horn Guys have been carrying a European competitor, DeCarbo, for a few years. They too are getting good reviews. They appear to be new designs, rather than working with existing parts. I haven’t played one, but perhaps someone here on TC could chime in?
Kenneth Biggs
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islander
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by islander »

Fascinating development - and a great and meaningful endorsement. The fact that a double-valve instrument is now as light as a single with no loss in sound quality is compelling. It´s presumably somewhat robust too - no bad thing for someone like me who is an expert at dinging bells with mutes, stands etc...
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by whitbey »

This is incredibly cool!
Edwards Sterling bell 525/547
Edwards brass bell 547/562
Edwards Jazz w/ Ab valve 500"/.508"
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aasavickas
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by aasavickas »

What is the advantage of the carbon fiber?

Is it just that it is lighter? It seems that the light weight is what the small bore players like about the slides and it seems like Yeos issue was that the weight of the horn was causing him trouble.

I suppose the fact that carbon fiber will not dent as easy as brass is another advantage. Carbon fiber is strong and can take a beating better than brass and I think if it breaks it would crack before it dents. Plus I think the repair of cracked carbon fiber is easier than fixing brass dents because I presume you can just glue carbon fiber back together. Maybe using plastic or carbon fiber would be good for student horns or marching bands where the instruments take a beating and are out in the elements?

I have experience fixing brass but have very little experience with carbon fiber. Maybe some of the techs on here can correct me if I'm guessing wrong.

So for the players that like it, why would a person go to the trouble to get a carbon fiber horn if they don't care about the weight? I've never really heard any one say the sound was better, usually they say it is just as good.

Again, I have never tried one and don't particularly have a problem with the weight of my slides or horns, so I'm curious if there are other advantages other than weight and looks that you notice on the carbon fiber.
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Burgerbob
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Burgerbob »

"weight" is a little misleading. It's hard to get across how much less a carbon slide or horn is than a brass one. It's orders of magnitude; if not in reality, then in feel.

I have played the DeCarbo instruments at hornguys... I thought they were pretty bad, myself. I need to play them again.
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hyperbolica
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by hyperbolica »

When you are 25, weight is not an issue. When you are 50, 60+, or have an injury, and you've been doing it your whole life it becomes an issue. In fact, it can be the single issue between playing into your senior years or not. Development on trombone will help pave the way for tubas, where it makes an even bigger impact.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by JohnL »

Do not discount the importance of weight, particularly when one is playing a double-valve bass for several hours a day. Add a body that's not as young as it used to be and shaving a couple pounds (or a kilo, for you folks outside the US) becomes very attractive. People have been having hand/wrist/arm/shoulder issues with double-valve bass trombones for as long as there have been double-valve bass trombones. Vincent Clark (Radio City Orchestra, among others) is shown in an early 1950's Olds catalog with a double-rotor Olds bass. He was involved in a court case in the late 1950's where he testified that he had been experiencing pain in his left arm for several years.
hyperbolica wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:23 pmDevelopment on trombone will help pave the way for tubas, where it makes an even bigger impact.
Chuck Daellenbach of the Canadian Brass has been playing on a tuba with a carbon fiber bell (the flare and tail up to the last bow) for a while.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by sf105 »

Some brass bells ring when you ping them and on some notes. Is this considered a good or bad thing? I'm assuming that carbon fibre doesn't.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Jgittleson »

sf105 wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:25 am Some brass bells ring when you ping them and on some notes. Is this considered a good or bad thing? I'm assuming that carbon fibre doesn't.

The carbon does ring, theres a video of David doing just that.
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hyperbolica
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by hyperbolica »

sf105 wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:25 am Some brass bells ring when you ping them and on some notes. Is this considered a good or bad thing? I'm assuming that carbon fibre doesn't.
Yeah, the Butler bell rings. I like bells that ring (Conn Elkhart). Ones that don't (Rath) still play well, but feel funny to me. My 88h has the dreaded "wolf tone" on F#, which some people can't stand. So, if you can feel it at all, it's a personal thing, like a lot of other stuff.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by blast »

hyperbolica wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:48 pm
sf105 wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:25 am Some brass bells ring when you ping them and on some notes. Is this considered a good or bad thing? I'm assuming that carbon fibre doesn't.
Yeah, the Butler bell rings. I like bells that ring (Conn Elkhart). Ones that don't (Rath) still play well, but feel funny to me. My 88h has the dreaded "wolf tone" on F#, which some people can't stand. So, if you can feel it at all, it's a personal thing, like a lot of other stuff.
Elkhart Conns ring ? Some do some don't.

Rath bells .... some do, some don't.

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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by GabrielRice »

Bells that have soldered beads ring when you ping them, unless something is wrong with them. That would be Bach, King. Holton? Shires type 1, 5, and 7 (and the rare type 3) as well. The basic pitch at which they ring is an indication of the thickness of the metal. Thicker bells ring at a higher pitch than thinner bells.

Bells with unsoldered beads - such as later Elkhart-era 6H, 78H and 79H, 8H and 88H, and 60H, 62H, 71, 72, 73H basses usually do not ring when pinged. Shires type 2 bells (and the rare type 8) as well. If the bead is turned particularly tightly, they might ring, but that's the exception rather than the rule. Usually you get a sort of semi-pitched thunk.

Older Elkhart Conns often have soldered beads. My 1940 70H does, as well as the early Fuchs bass I had in my possession briefly and a couple of other horns from the 20s and 30s I've seen. I've also seen 6Hs and 8Hs from the late 40s and early 50s that have soldered beads.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by mrdeacon »

When we're saying "ping" are we referring to the "Becker low brass camp" definition of ping in the players sound or are we referring to when you flick a bell with your finger?

My experience, at least with Holtons, has been different than Gabe's experiences. Most vintage Holtons I have tried seem to have that nice "trash can" bell thunk when you flick them with your finger. Most vintage unsoldered Conns also seem to give the thunk when you flick them. My favorite horns have all been horns that give that thunk. Almost sounds like flicking a trashcan lid with your finger.

My old Shires BII2RT7 bell gave a ping when I flicked it... My Rath R1 850G bell (which is soldered) gives something I'd describe as in between a thunk and a ping... so I'm not sold on the wide generalization of what makes a bell "ping" and what makes a bell "thunk".

Remember that a bell that "thunks" isn't dead sounding. Like Gabe said, they give a sort of "semi-pitched thunk".
Rath R1 2000s, Elliott XT
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yeodoug
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by yeodoug »

hyperbolica wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:23 pm When you are 25, weight is not an issue. When you are 50, 60+, or have an injury, and you've been doing it your whole life it becomes an issue. In fact, it can be the single issue between playing into your senior years or not.
I've been tracking various health issues faced by trombonists for many years, and that research forms a chapter in one of the books I'm working on.

There is a cumulative effect on health when one does anything for long periods of time. But we should not underestimate the fact that we often THINK we don't have a problem when we actually do.

I could give you names of a dozen superb trombonists whose names would be recognized by everyone on this forum and who are experiencing serious problems with their playing at this time. These are friends, professional players who range in age from their 20s to 70s. They love playing the trombone. But various things are at work that are making playing more challenging for them.

We live in complex times. Not more complex than times past, but the TYPE of complexity is unique to our time. Trombone playing has evolved since the fifteenth century. So have trombones themselves. As JohnL said below, "Do not discount the importance of weight." We have seen changes in the last 50 years - and particularly in the last 20 years - that are just now beginning to show their consequences. Weight is one of them.

Consider this:

The first double valve bass trombone was made by F.E. Olds in 1938. It was a smallish instrument by today's standards, with a nine-inch bell and two valves (dependent) in F/E.

Edward Kleinhammer was among the great number of orchestral bass trombonists who used a single valve Conn bass trombone (with a 1 1/2G mouthpiece) for many years.

David Monette was very influential with his excessively heavy trumpets that caught on for a time for a variety of reasons (including their cost: his instruments fed into the "Well, if it's more expensive, it must be better" ego stroking). Today, Monette's experiment can be seen as mostly a failure, as orchestral trumpet players have largely gone away from his heavy instruments. While he made only a few tenor trombones (five, if I recall) and five bass trombone bells, his work influenced makers like Edwards and Shires who followed his lead to heavier bells.

Bach followed suit with their "megatone" mouthpieces; Denis Wick added his "heavy top" mouthpieces. Many tenor trombone players began playing a Bach 42B size bell section with a 50B slide and a 4G or 3G mouthpiece. On Bolero. Some players added screw bell attachments that in addition to helping make the instrument more compact, added weight.

All of these changes had an effect on players. Not just their elbows and hands and backs, but also on their embouchures. Heavier bells and more dense mouthpieces required more air to vibrate the instrument. Embouchures began to fail as a result of bored out mouthpiece throats in heavy mouthpieces. This "musical arms race" toward larger bore, heavier weight instruments allowed players to play louder - for sure - but not much else. There was a loss in the ability to play softly. And slowly, players' bodies began to show the physical toll.

We tend to lump any physical problems with instruments into the "dystonia" pot but that is a complex term that should not be bandied about. In the "old days" (not really so long ago, actually), we used to say, "John Doe lost his lip." It usually happened because of an injury to the embouchure caused by playing too loudly. Later, it came about from playing oversized and heavy equipment.

Orchestra seasons have gotten longer; players have much more time with the instrument on the face than in the past. Pops concerts are usually of the "higher, faster, louder" genre. The pace of pops concerts is very fast; there is little time to recover between pieces. Much "contemporary music" makes tremendous demands on players in terms of dynamic and tonal range. Faces are getting beaten up at a rapid rate.

We are just now beginning to see the results of all of this and it will take another generation of players whose careers are shortened or compromised before the body of peer reviewed science is large enough to begin to influence habits. One of the problems is that of image, as players usually hide their problems, or don't want to be seen as a "wimp." When Ravel wrote Bolero, he had in mind a narrow bore trombone with a .460 bore and a 6 inch bell. I used to own Joannés Rochut's trombone that he brought with him from Paris when he joined the Boston Symphony as principal trombonist in 1925 (when I retired from the BSO in 2012, I "entrusted" the instrument to Toby Oft, with the proviso he pass it on to another BSO player when he retires and so on). Have a look at Rochut's mouthpiece, photo below, next to a Bach 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece:

Image

With the right tool, you can do any job. When I hear a rare performance of Bolero when the principal trombonist plays an instrument like a King 2B, I hear a beautiful, sexy, and rather effortless performance. But this is rare indeed. And it is not enough just to switch equipment. It requires a commitment from the conductor and the orchestra as a whole to moderate its dynamics in a way that does not drown out the solo.

The escalation of dynamics in symphony orchestras (and big bands) has been driven not by changes in the instruments themselves. There have not been significant changes in string instruments since the change from gut to steel strings at the beginning of the 20th century (over 100 years ago). There have been no changes to woodwind instruments in 100+ years that have significantly altered their timbre or dynamic range. These kinds of changes have been mostly been made to brass instruments, and to trombones more than trumpets, horns, trumpets, and tubas. This unilateral change in the way brass instruments deliver sound - louder and "more efficient" - became the orchestral equivalent to listening to music with earbuds on a noisy subway, with the listener needing music louder and louder not simply to hear the music, but to get the "excitement high" that became associated with loud music.

Culturally, we are reaching the tipping point where the "excitement high" is not enough. It is like a drug. You use more and more to get the same "rush" and eventually, there is no more that can be used unless suicide is desired. We are busy flipping the channel of our lives hundreds of times a day, afraid of a moment of quiet or contemplation, needing more and more excitement to get through the day. Eventually there is no more excitement to give: the music cannot get faster or louder or higher. What then?

There is a lot at play here, and I wrote about some of it in my article "Me, Myself and I: Are Orchestral Brass Players Losing the Concept of Being Team Players?" It has been reprinted in many magazines since it first appeared in the ITA Journal in 1997. You can read it here:

http://www.yeodoug.com/articles/text/teamplayer.html

All of this is to say that the carbon fiber modifications to my trombone that Dave Butler made work for me. They allow the trombone to be more comfortable in my hands and still sound like me. Yes, I am 63 years old, closer to my end than my beginning. But the effects of 20th/21st century trombone playing do not come upon a player all of a sudden. This is an important discussion. New developments in instrument making, such as using carbon fiber, titanium, and other materials, is part of this. Talking about how we play, balance in ensembles, the role of various instruments and groups of instruments at particular moments in various kinds of music, and an openness to saying "enough" is another part of healthy change and understanding.

-Douglas Yeo
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Douglas Yeo
Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra, 1985-2012 (retired)
Trombone Professor, Wheaton College, Illinois
Clinical Associate Professor of Trombone, University of Illinois (2022-2023)
www.yeodoug.com
www.thelasttrombone.com
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by GabrielRice »

Hi Doug, nice to see you here, and I can't wait to try your carbon fiber bass trombone or one like it!

The good news about your astute observations above is that the tide seems to be shifting back towards more color and a bit less volume in orchestral brass playing. Over the course of my 5 years selling trombones for the Shires company from 2004-2009, the most popular bells for orchestral tenor and bass trombones got lighter, and that trend has continued. I know that the same trend has been true at Edwards.

I agree with you 100% that much of the troubles ascribed to focal dystonia may or may not truly be neurological in nature, but were almost certainly caused or at least exacerbated by the seeming need to keep playing bigger, heavier instruments.

Here's hoping the current trend leads to more healthy brass players, playing with more and more color and nuance and not quite so many decibels.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Kbiggs »

Somewhat off topic...

The mouthpiece from Rochut’s trombone looks very much like a mouthpiece I have that came with a Czechoslovakian trombone, a stencil of late 19th C. English and French models. I was exchanging emails with another forum member about it, and we both thought it questionable that so small a mouthpiece would be paired with a trombone, albeit a 0.438 bore instrument. I guess I was wrong!
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by BGuttman »

Rochut's mouthpiece looks like a lot of trombone mouthpieces of the period. I have an Innes and one that is not marked and they are of similar sizes.

Rochut probably played a much more conical bore than most other mouthpieces. That was the French style of the period. I wish I could hear what he sounded like but I don't have access to BSO recordings of the period.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by RJMason »

Professor Yeo’s words are so astute and informative. I really appreciate these posts!!

I played two daCarbo trombones in NYC and I didn’t like either of them, one small bore one medium. I thought the idea was novel, but useless for my needs after that. Two years later (2017) I needed a new conn slide and decided to try the new Butler slide. After adjustment really enjoyed playing on it and still do.

The Butler slide has been a game changer for me. I don’t use it for every gig, but for many shows with louder amplified bands where I am mic’ed, long playing, and having to move around, or interact with an audience, it helps so much, and sounds great.

Eventually David let me try a bell. I was expecting it to let me down like the da carbo, but surprisingly it sounded very good and so similar to my 6H bell. I will probably get one soon, especially when I have gigs where I have to play other instruments and trombone on a few songs or have to play in a crowded venue.

The musical landscape for trombonists is changing quickly, as more genres seek to utilize instruments normally seen in classical and jazz ensembles. As they do, new equipment which provides great sound and ease of performance will need to be further developed. I don’t know how Butler’s designs differ from CF parts from the past, but they are revolutionary. I will definitely be ordering a bass trombone when it is finished and possibly a Tuba if the production can expand even more in the future!
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by harrisonreed »

1. I love Mr. Yeo's post here -- he is a wealth of knowledge and makes outstanding contributions with his wtiting and teaching.

2. That said, I feel like an image of your Yamaha signature mouthpiece included next to the Rochut and 6.5al would be both hilarious and slightly detracting from that last post, especially if you compared them cup by cup. I know it's not the biggest bass piece. I know it's apples to oranges, since you were talking about bolero. But still, I get a chuckle out of that mouthpiece with how thin the rim is, and how huge it makes it look.

Was that gear created out of necessity to compete in the environment you describe as arising in the 20th century? And is the carbon bell and slide a way to sort of reign it back in while admitting that we aren't going to return to the olden days with smaller gear?

Where do you see it actually going, since we are at the tipping point?
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by timothy42b »

Great to see Mr. Yeo's contributions - always valuable!.

Slight detour:

Mr. Yeo said:
I've been tracking various health issues faced by trombonists for many years, and that research forms a chapter in one of the books I'm working on.

There is a cumulative effect on health when one does anything for long periods of time.
Aside from the rather unergonomic nature of our instrument, one of the things we often do is sit for long periods of time. I offer the following video. Maybe it's on track, maybe not; it seems to make sense.



There is another potential benefit to the new materials, beyond the weight and robustness. They offer more potential for experimentation by the garage hobbyist. Yes, you can use brass, but it demands more investment in skills and tools.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by yeodoug »

GabeLangfur wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:40 pmThe good news about your astute observations above is that the tide seems to be shifting back towards more color and a bit less volume in orchestral brass playing. . . Here's hoping the current trend leads to more healthy brass players, playing with more and more color and nuance and not quite so many decibels.
In general, I agree with this, Gabe. Happily, the pendulum is swinging back to a more measured trombone sound in many symphony orchestras that had gone toward the "concrete" and very loud sound that had captivated so many players and ruined so many concerts for many years.

There are exceptions and they are easy to identify. Some orchestral trombone sections seem to have completely forgotten what it is to play softly. Part of the problem is the instruments they use don't allow them to play softly.

The other thing is that ego is at play in most cases when balance is out of whack. Many players do not understand the trombone's role in orchestral music. Yes, there are times when we have the most prominent voice and it needs to be heard. But for most of the time we trombonists have the horn on our lips, we do our playing in community, in a supportive role. Understanding that role is crucial for successful performances.

What players often don't see is that their desire to inappropriately self-promote themselves in the orchestra actually can lead to hurting themselves both personally (damaging the embouchure through excessive loud playing) and professionally (being labeled a "pig" of a player by colleagues and those who hear their playing in concerts).

When I am asked to speak about this to groups of musicians - whether professionals or students - I always quote this insightful passage from the Bible (1 Corinthians 12:14-26):
For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may h ave the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; iron member is honored, all rejoice together."
In this, the Apostle Paul is talking about the proper and beautiful working of the Church. But these words can be applied to the proper and beautiful working of ANY group of people. A corporation, a family, a football team, a symphony orchestra, a big band, a trombone quartet. Each member of the group is different. It is not a matter of more or less IMPORTANT. It is, rather, a matter of more or less PROMINENT. A bass trombone is not a principal oboe. A second trombone is not a concertmaster. A principal trombone is not a principal trumpet. A tuba is not a flute. Composers give each instrument in the ensemble a particular role. Even when you see something like a Tchaikovsky symphony where the composer scores FFF from piccolo down to double bass at the same moment, not every instrument should play at its FFF level. If that was the case, the trombones would simply bury the melody if they are just playing supportive half notes.

The dumbest thing a musician can say to a conductor when a conductor looks back and says, "You're playing too loudly," is "Well, it says forte!" As if "forte" is some kind of artifact that is the same all the time. We need to be thinking people, content with our role, sensitive to the roles of others. We need to hone our skill sets so we are prepared to do ANYTHING in our playing that will contribute to the success of the group, to the success of the whole performance. As we embrace being contextual and situational players, the art of music is enhanced.

In the 1970s, my wife and I attended a Chicago Symphony concert where the orchestra was giving its first performance of Richard Strauss' "An Alpine Symphony." At that time there was only one recording of the piece on the market, by Rudolfe Kempe with the Dresden State Orchestra; it was not as widely known then as it is today. We were knocked out by the piece and its performance. After the concert, for the only time in my college years, I waited by the musician's entrance for Mr. Kleinhammer to come up into the lobby of Orchestra Hall to leave. When he arrived, I went to him and blathered away at how great he sounded, etc, etc. He gave me me a penetrating look and said, "If you heard me, I was a failure. You should have heard an orchestra, not a fourth trombone player." And he walked away. It was a teachable moment for me, and at our lesson the next day he unpacked that. "The piece was very exciting," he said. "But the brass played much too loudly sometimes." He continued, "You should never go away from a concert having focused on just one thing at the expense of everything else. Just because you heard me doesn't mean I did my job right. We can do a better job with this."

Wise words.

-Douglas Yeo
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Douglas Yeo
Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra, 1985-2012 (retired)
Trombone Professor, Wheaton College, Illinois
Clinical Associate Professor of Trombone, University of Illinois (2022-2023)
www.yeodoug.com
www.thelasttrombone.com
sf105
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by sf105 »

Cannot agree more with Doug. I'm so please to see the "historically informed" bands move into the later repertoire. Another thing we've lost is the colour that traditional brass brought to the performance. I went to see a Very Famous Orchestra doing Peleas and their modern trombones at a plausible volume just disappeared, whereas I suspect French peashooters (with French vibrato) would have brought a completely different colour to the sound. At least, we're learning...
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Pre59 »

I'd like to hear a greater range of tone colours as well, and not fff+ sounding like a louder version of mf.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by JohnL »

yeodoug wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:13 am... at our lesson the next day he unpacked that. "The piece was very exciting," he said. "But the brass played much too loudly sometimes." He continued, "You should never go away from a concert having focused on just one thing at the expense of everything else. Just because you heard me doesn't mean I did my job right. We can do a better job with this."
Unfortunately, this part of the story isn't normally included in the retelling. "The Kleinhammer Quote", as I call it, is now interpreted by many to mean the bass trombone should never be heard. Ever. The lesson Mr. Kleinhammer was seeking to teach (and should be learned by ALL musicians, regardless of what instrument they play) - that when we forget that we are just one part of a much greater whole, we fail as musicians - has been lost.

Most trombonists I know, even at the community ensemble level, are acutely aware of how we are perceived and are pretty good about getting out of the way when we're playing a supporting part (which is, of course, most of the time). At the worst, we'll need to be told that, while our part is interesting (and may even be the primary melody), there is something else the conductor considers to be more important. And we only need to be told once. The sections that do carry the melody on a frequent basis, OTOH, are not particularly sensitive to those times when their part is not the primary focus.

But back on topic...

Douglas, have you had a chance to give the horn a good workout in a section and/or ensemble situation? I'm curious as to its "blendability". I'm sure it can be made to work in almost any situation, but I'm curious as to how much effort might be involved.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Jgittleson »

Would it be possible to hear this horn in a brief video? I've heard David's tenors, which sound fantastic, and I have to imagine it would be equally as impressive.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by harrisonreed »

Whoa whoa whoa! I still have to bring this point back up. What does this instrument have to do with historically informed playing? Especially if it sounds exactly like a brass Yeo signature Yamaha Bass?

In the pictures I still see a monster modern double valved bass, with an equally massive Yeo signature mouthpiece. Especially when that came out, that mouthpiece was not considered a small bass piece. I'm not seeing the connection here.

lighter weight bass = good
sounds just as good as brass = good
Doug Yeo has had an amazing career and sounds fantastic on his modern Yamaha Bass in either brass or carbon = great!

I don't see what this has to do with Rochut or scaling back equipment . That bass setup probably can peel paint.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by BGuttman »

I don't think Doug is pushing this as a "historically informed" instrument. It is an instrument that will allow someone with some degenerative joint conditions to play effectively for a longer time and probably prevent someone from developing a joint condition.

I have never had the opportunity of trying a carbon fiber slide (or any other part of a trombone). I'd certainly like to try one some day. Maybe it's a great improvement and maybe not. Time will tell.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Fafner »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:30 pm Whoa whoa whoa! I still have to bring this point back up. What does this instrument have to do with historically informed playing? Especially if it sounds exactly like a brass Yeo signature Yamaha Bass?

In the pictures I still see a monster modern double valved bass, with an equally massive Yeo signature mouthpiece. Especially when that came out, that mouthpiece was not considered a small bass piece. I'm not seeing the connection here.

lighter weight bass = good
sounds just as good as brass = good
Doug Yeo has had an amazing career and sounds fantastic on his modern Yamaha Bass in either brass or carbon = great!

I don't see what this has to do with Rochut or scaling back equipment . That bass setup probably can peel paint.
I think you've conflated a couple points. His move to a carbon fiber horn relates to "scaling back equipment" in that the massive equipment we play these days causes stress injuries over time. As we get older, we need to find ways of coping with heavy, non-ergonomic equipment. Back when Rochut played, his instrument was probably literally half the weight of the modern instrument and probably not an issue over time for him. I do not think Mr. Yeo is claiming that this horn is more historic in any way, but rather a historic step for bass trombone design.

Doug's horn is actually not a "monster" instrument compared to what is in vogue these days. It also has the option to remove the second valve entirely.

If I really wanted to "peel paint" I would play a "historically informed" old Conn or Olds bass trombone in a modern full-sized orchestra. An aggressive sound has been appropriate at certain times in the orchestra for hundreds of years. It's just the decibel level where that sound occurs has gradually risen as has the size of the equipment. It's gotten to the point of creating more injuries among brass players.

*Disclaimer: I think if someone is playing the trombone with the express goal of "peeling paint" then maybe their heart is in the wrong place.
Last edited by Fafner on Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Tbarh »

Wanting our trombones to be extremly light with a superfast slide is a No-brainer.. I would however like to hear more feedback regarding sound quality.. Trombone players are usually very vocal about nuances, increments, colour etc regarding quality of sound of their horns.. I have never in my life found two horns that sound alike , No matter how similar. Here we are talking about a huge evolution.. So, how does it sound? High to low? , soft to loud?... The good, bad and the ugly?

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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by harrisonreed »

Fafner wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:07 pm I think you've conflated a couple points. His move to a carbon fiber horn relates to "scaling back equipment" in that the massive equipment we play these days causes stress injuries over time. As we get older, we need to find ways of coping with heavy, non-ergonomic equipment. Back when Rochut played, his instrument was probably literally half the weight of the modern instrument and probably not an issue over time for him. I do not think Mr. Yeo is claiming that this horn is more historic in any way, but rather a historic step for bass trombone design.

Doug's horn is actually not a "monster" instrument compared to what is in vogue these days. It also has the option to remove the second valve entirely.

If I really wanted to "peel paint" I would play a "historically informed" old Conn or Olds bass trombone in a modern full-sized orchestra. An aggressive sound has been appropriate at certain times in the orchestra for hundreds of years. It's just the decibel level where that sound occurs has gradually risen as has the size of the equipment. It's gotten to the point of creating more injuries among brass players.

*Disclaimer: I think if someone is playing the trombone with the express goal of "peeling paint" then maybe their heart is in the wrong place.
You misunderstand me. The first post was about reducing weight and still having a playable instrument that is useable in a modern section. Hooray!

The back half of this thread is a bunch of posts from people other than Mr.Yeo talking about historically informed playing and all kinds of things that have nothing to do with this modern instrument.

I think people saw the image of Rochuts mouthpiece and read Doug's post about the good old days, and now think that this instrument is some kind of return to that -- it's not. It looks like it's capable of the same thing a modern bass is, which is peeling paint. That's what we were talking about with the gear shift over the 20th century.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that I'm reading this as a post about an instrument that let's you keep playing a modern instrument and not throw your arm out. As in, "look at this predicament we've gotten ourselves into, but it sounds good and at least I can continue to sound great and still hold my instrument".

It is unfair for the posters here to latch onto the image of Rochut's mouthpiece and pine for the old days and pooh pooh modern playing when if you look at it, brass playing is actually near it's zenith. Sure, we may have taken it too far with heavy bells around the late 90s, but I think we're right around where we need to be. And this bass looks to be in every way a modern bass capable of everything the Yamaha brass model is capable of.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by aasavickas »

I'm still curious about the sound. I get the advantages of a lighter horn for folk as they age or for people with injuries.

I understand the benefit to working on the ergonomics of the horn. The modern trombone is designed pretty poorly for most human hands. The wide hand grip and heavy instrument seems like it is best suited to a very large man with large hands. So anything to make the thing more comfortable so that the player can focus on music makes sense to me.

But if you don't have an injury and you are not having any noticeable problems with the weight of the horn, is there any advantage to playing a carbon fiber horn? Does it sound better? Or, just the same? Or does it sound worse in some aspects and better in others?
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by harrisonreed »

I too would like to hear it in context!
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by yeodoug »

A few more points:

1. Thanks to those who pointed out that this whole thread has taken a couple of different directions. It began with my talking about my enthusiasm regarding my Butler carbon fiber bass trombone parts. As the days have gone on and I continue playing the instrument, I remain enthusiastic about this for all of the reasons I've stated previously. The instrument is a modern sized bass trombone and can do everything any other modern sized bass trombone can do.

2. The discussion of HOW we play ANY instrument flowed from my discussion about injuries that players get from playing too loudly, or playing overly heavy, bored out equipment. The reason I included the photo of Rochut's mouthpiece was not to advocate going back in time to "historically informed" performance (although that is all well and good for ensembles that are configured to do so) but to show that when Bolero was written, trombones were much smaller and therefore playing that solo was a completely different thing than if played today by a tenor trombonist using Bach 42B bell, 50B or large dual-bore slide, and 3G mouthpiece. My point was that injuries are common among today's players who use such overly large equipment where using a different instrument and mouthpiece (I mentioned a King 2B) would allow the player to give a superb performance without putting him/herself at physical risk. With the right tool you can do any job. My argument is that an oversized trombone with a huge mouthpiece is not the right tool to play the trombone solo in Bolero, both from a musical standpoint and a physical standpoint.

3. Flowing from this discussion were a number of posts about the role we trombonists play in ensembles, the necessity of recognizing that role and playing appropriately for each circumstance. If we check our ego at the door when we walk on stage, musical performance is enhanced when we realize that all members of an ensemble are, at any given moment, equally IMPORTANT but all are not equally PROMINENT. My talking about what John Lowe calls "The Kleinhammer Quote" was part of this discussion. John's followup to my comments on this was insightful and welcome. Not only does playing in ensembles in appropriate ways (and using appropriate equipment) enhance the musical performance of a group, it helps us in our relationships with our colleagues AND it helps how playing our instruments effects our bodies. Because. . .

4. There is a cumulative, deleterious effect on our bodies that comes from playing our instruments. It begins on the day we first pick up the trombone and ends the day we finally stop playing. Just because a 20 year old does not have any difficulty holding or playing an instrument dos not mean negative effects are not beginning to pile up. It often takes many years for problems to show up. Understanding this leads us to take steps early on to engage in good posture, using appropriately sized equipment of an appropriate weight, and other things that can help our bodies hold up under the strain of picking up, holding, playing, and putting down our heavy instruments for hours a day for a lifetime. When we are 20, we have difficulty imagining what our life will be like when we're 30 and so on. If we wait until our bodies exhibit problems it may be too late to effectively deal with them. Prophylactically addressing potential physical issues that eventually will lead to compromising our body can give us many more years of enjoyment playing our instruments.

Here's one simple suggestion: when you put down your instrument after playing, get it out of your left hand. Your left hand spends hours and hours gripping the trombone when you play. When sitting and counting rests, there's no need for the trombone to remain in your left hand, gripping it in the playing position. Shift the trombone to be supported by your right hand while resting, or use a trombone stand (only while you are right next to it - never leave your trombone on a stand when you're not there with it lest someone knock it over and disaster occur!). This simple thing can have a significant impact on the wear and tear of your left hand.

5. Some have asked for a video of my playing my YAMAHA/Butler bass trombone. I don't have recording equipment that is good enough to make a video or audio recording that would be useful enough to demonstrate sound quality in a way that could lead to an evaluation. Dave Butler is working on more bass trombone parts and has a goal of making a complete carbon fiber bass trombone. The best thing is to attend a festival or workshop where Dave is displaying his instruments so you can try them for yourself.

6. I have not yet played the instrument in ensembles. I plan to do this going forward. Of course this is very important. It's a matter of getting together with other players to do this. That will happen in time. I'm at work on a lot of projects at the moment, especially writing books, but also practicing serpent and bass sackbut to play in my church on Sunday. Got to fit all of this in 24 hour days!

-Douglas Yeo
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Douglas Yeo
Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra, 1985-2012 (retired)
Trombone Professor, Wheaton College, Illinois
Clinical Associate Professor of Trombone, University of Illinois (2022-2023)
www.yeodoug.com
www.thelasttrombone.com
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by harrisonreed »

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Yeo! Now I really want to try a large tenor version of this idea!
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by JohnL »

yeodoug wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:02 am Here's one simple suggestion: when you put down your instrument after playing, get it out of your left hand. Your left hand spends hours and hours gripping the trombone when you play. When sitting and counting rests, there's no need for the trombone to remain in your left hand, gripping it in the playing position. Shift the trombone to be supported by your right hand while resting, or use a trombone stand (only while you are right next to it - never leave your trombone on a stand when you're not there with it lest someone knock it over and disaster occur!). This simple thing can have a significant impact on the wear and tear of your left hand.
I find that I need to pay attention to how I go about putting my trombone on or taking it off of a stand. A quick grab using poor mechanics and I feel a twinge. I don't often use a stand, but when I do, I use both hands when putting or taking the horn.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by yeodoug »

JohnL wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:03 amI find that I need to pay attention to how I go about putting my trombone on or taking it off of a stand. A quick grab using poor mechanics and I feel a twinge. I don't often use a stand, but when I do, I use both hands when putting or taking the horn.
I agree with this, John. It is important to analyze how we do everything with the trombone. The stand gets the trombone out of your hand. Good. But you still have to get the trombone on and off the stand. Two hands is always best, in our shared view, since it distributes the weight of the trombone so one elbow does not do all the lifting. Left side, right side, leaning over, dealing with the music stand, colleagues, etc - these are all things to be sorted out. We need to think through everything.

-Douglas Yeo
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Douglas Yeo
Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra, 1985-2012 (retired)
Trombone Professor, Wheaton College, Illinois
Clinical Associate Professor of Trombone, University of Illinois (2022-2023)
www.yeodoug.com
www.thelasttrombone.com
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by MalecHeermans »

Mr. Yeo thank you so much for sharing this exciting development in real time - it's so valuable for all of us that are striving to find our voice and place in a time when technology is moving rapidly forward.

What do you think about the stigma of having a carbon vs brass instrument in certain situations?
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by 2bobone »

I feel well qualified to speak to the subject of the new Butler Carbon Fiber Bass Trombone because I was a casualty of the “bigger is better” craze back in the eighties. I wound up not being able to support the weight of the behemoth [My King 8B] for even half a minute until my wrist collapsed and a general weakness in my left arm made it impossible to continue. It ended a thirty year professional career. Multiple trips to neurologists and other specialists ended in nothing but frustration. Interim attempts at a remedy included use of a “bowler's / golfer's” glove which only eventually exacerbated the problem.
It was only until my discovery of the “ErgoBone” that I was able to play anything at all after a 20 year hiatus. Jouko Antere, its inventor, receives my thanks with every note I've played since I clamped it to my instrument. It at least made it possible to amuse myself, though I knew I'd never return to my former self. The ErgoBone has its restrictions, slight as they may be, but there really is no substitute for the total freedom that I once had ------- until now, with the advent of Dave Butler's Carbon Fiber Bass Trombone.
Have I played one ? No. Have I even held one ? No. But, nontheless, I've been on his production list for several months now and can't wait to hold one --- and play one. I know that whatever it sounds like, it will sound like ME playing a Carbon Fiber Bass Trombone and that's good enough. Any of Dave's postings of solo players like David Jackson or Dave himself , or of ensemble playing on one of his gigs, clearly shows that this ain't no P-Bone we're talking about. I know that his original intent was not to address the weight problem of double trigger bass trombones, but the bonus of lighter weight might well be the greatest advertisement for his creation.
Back in the day, when I used my King Duo Gravis [Silver Sonic] exclusively, I would be criticized by youthful players because the King Duo Gravis was a “Studio” horn or a “Jazz” horn. The fact that it handily met every expectation in repertoire like the complete “Walkyrie” of Wagner, or “Alexander Nevsky” of Prokofieff didn't seem to matter because it didn't LOOK big enough ! There was even a period where the craze was to remove the leadpipe entirely from the horn. I believe Ed Kleinhammer did that for a while. I have to admit that it greatly improved a Bach 50B that I tried for a brief period, but it was a part of the general “bigger is better” attitude.
Regarding the issue of overly loud brass playing, I'd like to offer this exchange between Adolf Herseth and an interviewer about Mr. Herseth's experiences in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. At one point in a rehearsal, Fritz Reiner walked off the podium and went into the hall itself to listen to the orchestra. When he returned, he admonished the brass section with, “BRASS ! You are killing everything ! Cut it in half !” Of course they followed his instruction, but as the rehearsal progressed, Maestro Reiner kept gesturing for more and more until soon they were playing more loudly than ever. It was well known that the podium was in a null point in the hall and the results were predictable.
I really don't think that brass players should take all of the blame for dominating an orchestra's sound. Many conductors themselves ask for, ---- no, ---- demand a volume level that can be destructive to both the players and the music. I spent quite a few years with a Russian conductor whose favorite word was CRESCENDO ! The problem will not be going away any time soon ------------.
OK ---- Time to go sit on the front porch and wait for the FedEx truck and that package from Dallas, TX ! Lots of playing left to do ----------- Cheers to all !!
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by Savio »

Always interesting to follow new developments in trombone design. A lightweight trombone with same playing quality is good news for many. I'm one of them who find it more comfortable to hold a lighter bass trombone, so I went to single triggers. In fact I downsized both mouthpiece and trombone, my shoulder feels better now. Since I'm mostly a teacher and fare a way from big orchestras I dont need big equipment. For me it's more comfortable and more joy to get closer to my older idols. But I understand people have demands from big orchestras or other big ensembles.

This new development will be interesting to follow, maybe I get a chance to try it later.

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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by yeodoug »

MalecHeermans wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:59 pm What do you think about the stigma of having a carbon vs brass instrument in certain situations?
This is an excellent question.

I referenced this in my blog article where I wrote:
Now, I would not have started going down this road if I was not persuaded that the instrument that would eventually fit in my hand would be of the highest quality. I wanted to sound like me, and like most people, I was initially a little suspicious that a carbon fiber trombone could sound anything like a standard brass and nickel trombone. Intuitively it just seemed that brass would sound better. But after working with Dave Butler, I realized that I initially approached the idea of a carbon fiber trombone with a predetermined prejudice: I was hearing with my eyes. The carbon fiber parts are black. They look different than brass. Dave Butler’s website prominently features a quotation by John Maynard Keynes:

The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones.

I needed to give this an honest chance.
The first thing I had to do was to push through the visual prejudice. And this, I think, is the biggest challenge to carbon fiber instruments becoming widely accepted. Many people listen with their eyes. Honest listening is actually rare. Heck, honesty in anything is actually rare. We all approach life through our own set of assumptions, preconditions, and prejudices. It is hard to break through this but when we do, we give all of life a chance.

I'm not at all worried about what other people think about my playing a carbon fiber trombone. My reputation is not at stake, my hiring by a group is not at stake. I have a thick skin. Whatever people may think when I walk on stage with my carbon fiber trombone doesn't matter to me. What DOES matter is what happens after I start playing. If I play great and sound like me, the honest listener won't care what my trombone looks like.

In 1925, the US School of Music developed a home-study course for people to learn musical instruments. The program was hugely successful because of an advertisement created by John Caples. It became the most famous advertisement of all time, imitated by countless others. Here is the headline of the ad, from a 1927 publication:

Image

You get it, right? Nobody thought he could play. When he sat down, everyone was laughing. But when he started playing. . .

When I was a kid, I had a Music Minus One LP of the same title, "They Laughed When I Sat Down to Play." It is long gone from my collection but I've always remembered that title.

If people laugh when you sit down to play—because they don't think you will be any good, or your trombone looks unusual, or your suit isn't pressed, or your hair isn't combed, or your music falls off the stand—that's OK. Smile and bow. And then watch their faces when you start to play. They might actually start listening with their ears.

That said, in an ensemble situation, it's a smart idea to talk with your colleagues, even your conductor, before you bring something unusual on stage. Play it for them. If you sound like you, then they won't care. They will listen with their ears, not their eyes.

People are playing carbon fiber string instruments in ensembles around the world, made by Luis and Clark. Yo-Yo Ma owns, plays, and endorses his Luis and Clark cello:

Image

https://luisandclark.com

Stephan Berger in Switzerland makes a carbon fiber serpent. This is an exceptionally good instrument, based on a fine original in the Musee de la Musique in Paris. I own one and have used it frequently; Michel Godard, who is perhaps the leading serpent player in the world, also uses one:

Image

http://serpents.ch/sample-page/karbon/?lang=en

Chuck Daellenbach, tubist with the Canadian Brass, has been using a tuba with a carbon fiber bell for many years:

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http://www.wbur.org/npr/153700968/canad ... with-humor

We live in modern times. People are coming on stage with iPads instead of paper music. Symphony orchestra players come on stage wearing uniforms that are other than white tie and tails or tuxedos. Technology, perception, speed, comfort—all of these things are changing the way we work and live.

People often ask me, "What the best trombone?" I always answer the same way:
The trombone that is best for you is the trombone that's best for you.
I've played my YAMAHA bass trombone since 1991. I love it. It works for me. It works for many other people as well. But it might not work for you. I'm now enjoying playing my Butler carbon fiber conversion. It works for me. But it might not work for you. I'm not a YAMAHA or Butler salesman. They don't pay me to play their instruments. I play them because I like them and they work for me. What I always tell people is to TRY IT. If you don't try it, you won't know if it works for you. Don't buy a trombone (or anything, for that matter) because someone tells you it's great, or a famous person endorses it. Buy it because it works for YOU. Sometimes that means going a little outside your comfort zone. If you try it, you might like it.

You might just end up saying, "Say, I do like green eggs and ham!"

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-Douglas Yeo
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Douglas Yeo
Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra, 1985-2012 (retired)
Trombone Professor, Wheaton College, Illinois
Clinical Associate Professor of Trombone, University of Illinois (2022-2023)
www.yeodoug.com
www.thelasttrombone.com
sf105
Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by sf105 »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:30 pm Whoa whoa whoa! I still have to bring this point back up. What does this instrument have to do with historically informed playing? Especially if it sounds exactly like a brass Yeo signature Yamaha Bass?

I don't see what this has to do with Rochut or scaling back equipment . That bass setup probably can peel paint.
It was to do with Doug's comments about how brass playing seems to have got out of hand over the last 20-30 years. Nothing to do with the Butler.
whitbey
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:44 am
Location: Rochester Michigan North of Detroit.
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Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by whitbey »

As always, I appreciate your thoughts.
Many years ago I had several people telling me that I absolutely must get with the times and make my bass trombone a dependent horn. I seen something by you and your preference for a dependent horn.
My bass horn is an old, wild dependent Bb/F/C machine that sounds like a trombone and plays double peddles easily.
(Pics are in my profile)
If bass trombone was my main horn I would be all over this Butler horn.
Edwards Sterling bell 525/547
Edwards brass bell 547/562
Edwards Jazz w/ Ab valve 500"/.508"
Markus Leuchter Alto Trombone
Bass Bach 50 Bb/F/C dependent.
Cerveny oval euphonium
Full list in profile
blast
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:46 am

Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by blast »

There really are two different topics here and blending them is causing much confusion.
There is a discussion about the development of ever louder sounds in the orchestra, and the development of Carbon Fiber as a brass instrument material.
We would probably be best served if we discuss Carbon Fiber here and start a new thread on orchestra volume.
The music world, especially the orchestra world, is VERY conservative. I recently bought a Rath bell in 'scratch lacquer' finish that has caught the attention of not only my colleagues in the brass section, but members of the wind and strings and even management ! A perfectly normal bell with an unusual finish. I can only imagine the reaction to a Carbon Fiber bell. What a shame that people hear with their eyes.
Douglas and I are part of the first generation to play double valve basses for our whole careers ....we are really in uncharted territory.
Many of my students have, over the years, complained of hand, arm and shoulder pain. The usual problem has been with the instrument ergonomics rather a simple weight issue, but I have no doubt that less weight would be a benefit for all.
Let's hope that carbon Fiber will get a fair hearing. I have no idea how it will play in an orchestra in a large concert hall. Only time will tell.

Chris Stearn
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RConrad
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

Post by RConrad »

It'll be interesting to see how things change. As a person with a bad left hip and back issues I'd love a lighter Trombone. Anything that will reduce pressure on that side while still producing the sound needed from me is a good thing. I'm rather interested in how the mixing of different materials may change the tone and, if so, how that progresses as you increase the number of carbon fiber parts.
Robert C
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