History of the Greenhoe

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trompanner
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History of the Greenhoe

Post by trompanner »

I'm trying to learn about the various valve options out there because I've spent the past couple of decades simply married to my traditional Bach rotor without ever considering other types of valves. My understanding is that the Greenhoe is another type of rotor but features ports that are more open than the traditional rotor.

A few questions for discussion:

1) When Gary Greenhoe started building his rotors, did he start by retrofitting them to existing horns?

2) Have the valves changed at all from the beginning up to now? If so, in what ways?

I've heard of Greenhoe valves being installed on pretty much all of the major brands as well as the custom built horns (such as the Shires of the world). I would also be interested in hearing from the Greenhoe valve users about your experiences with them, especially if you have experience with the various iterations of through the years.
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by Bach5G »

I have a Greenhoe on my Shires F att, or so I have been told. It’s a valve.
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trompanner
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by trompanner »

Bach5G wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:02 pm I have a Greenhoe on my Shires F att, or so I have been told. It’s a valve.
Just saw a Shires tenor with Greenhoe F-attachment...Maybe yours and the one in the ad are similar in age? Just a valve huh? How do you really feel?

What I'm really wondering about is whether or not there is a difference between the older Greenhoe valves and the valves post Schilke acquisition of Greenhoe.
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by brtnats »

My memory is not 100% on this. I also own some Greenhoe tech, but I have never played a Greenhoe valve, so I need some corroboration.

-Gary was the second trombonist of the Milwaukee Symphony, and the valve/horns/parts business came along in the late 90s or early 2000s.
-He initially began by selling the valve and the wrap. Shires licenced them and used them as the default rotor valve on their horns for a while, before designing the SE Shires rotary valve.
-Gary would retrofit your horn to accept his valve. I wanna say Matt Walker Michael McLemore from M&W Trombones used to be Gary’s team.
-The valve really took off around 2003, and around that time we saw fully customized Greenhoe trombones coming from the shop using Vincent Bach and C.G. Conn OEM parts as starting materials. You could get a Greenhoe-customized 88H, 42B, 62H, and 50B. Maybe a 36B too.
-Around the same time, they began building TIS trombones, especially bass trombones, using the Greenhoe valve. In my memory this was the biggest deal, because it was the first time TIS horns were being made in any capacity since Conn stopped doing them in Elkhart.
-I think in 2004 or 2005 Greenhoe made a deal with Conn-Selmer to sell a “Greenhoe” 88H and 62H, with the bell/valve sections assembled in Wisconsin and the rest of the horn made in Eastlake. Greenhoe sent the bells back to Eastlake to sell the entire instrument under the Conn label. Generally these weren’t received on TTF as well as Gary’s custom-made stuff.

All the tech disappeared when Gary retired and sold the business to Schilke. The Schilke Greenhoe trombones you see now are the continuation of the TIS and non-TIS custom instruments that Gary was building in his shop.

Seems a lot like Larry Minick to me. He took existing materials and maximized them, unless suitable parts weren’t available, and then he built his own.

A bunch of high-profile classical players were experimenting with them in the early 2000s. I specifically remember the CSO trombones and Ralph Sauer.

To my knowledge, the basic design remainder largely unchanged once they went into production. They’re solid, heavy, vented rotor valves with short throws and easier air pathways. They came along before Kanstul’s CR, Shires TruBore, and Shires rotary. They were meant as an evolved rotor to compete against axial flow valves. I’ve never met anyone who didn’t like theirs, but have always commented on how heavy they were.
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by GBP »

trompanner wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:49 am
Bach5G wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:02 pm I have a Greenhoe on my Shires F att, or so I have been told. It’s a valve.
Just saw a Shires tenor with Greenhoe F-attachment...Maybe yours and the one in the ad are similar in age? Just a valve huh? How do you really feel?

What I'm really wondering about is whether or not there is a difference between the older Greenhoe valves and the valves post Schilke acquisition of Greenhoe.
I have a Greenhoe section from 2006 and my buddy has one from 2018. Mine is Edwards based and his is a Bach based horn. They look identical.
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by Matt K »

Shires did have some relationship to Gary but it's fairly complicated memory serving. Matt Walker is a member here and has corrected quite a few misconceptions surrounding the horns over time. I believe some of them here but mostly on the previous forum for which the posts are not backed up which is a real shame because this is one of the few times where someone who has inside knowledge has been so forwardly engaged about correctly identifying these types of things.

The short of it is that it that you really shouldn't advertise a Shires being a Greenhoe unless it was a bona-fide Greenhoe conversion. There were a number of Edwards and Shires converted... The professor at Southeast Missouri State University, Joe Jefferson, had such an Edwards perhaps a decade ago prior to his endorsement by Shires. I've personally seen 4-5 other Edwards and Shires conversions. FWIW.

As far as the differences between the Schilke Greenhoes and the originals is less nuanced. The older Greenhoes were actually parts from Bach and Conn. (With the exception of the parts for the F attachment). The full Greenhoes, to the best of my knowledge, were not such parts but I'm not privy to the sourcing of those parts or if they were made in house. With the Schilke acquisition, the valves may well be made by the same factory (memory serving they also did not make them in-house but I could be mistaken about that as well). However, the rest of the horn are probably made by Schilke themselves and not from Bach or Conn. (Unless they have a special arrangement to have them provide the parts and not stamp them with their companies logos.) However, they have similarities and obviously the model numbers are a nod and a wink towards those horns (GBx and GCx models are Bach 42 or 50 and Conn 88 or 62, respectively for tenor and bass.).
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by brtnats »

Matt K wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:15 pm Shires did have some relationship to Gary but it's fairly complicated memory serving. Matt Walker is a member here and has corrected quite a few misconceptions surrounding the horns over time. I believe some of them here but mostly on the previous forum for which the posts are not backed up which is a real shame because this is one of the few times where someone who has inside knowledge has been so forwardly engaged about correctly identifying these types of things.
Matt, without wanting to get into too much speculation, I remember it was a complicated relationship with Shires too, and I don’t remember them parting ways on good terms.
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by greenbean »

There were various horns with Greenhoe valves. Horns whose owners did a conversion, horns made by Conn, Conn horn assembled entirely by Greenhoe, Bachs, and complete horns made by Greenhoe. But I don't think the Greenhoe valve varied that much over time and is a great valves. Greenhoe also produced valves for Shires in their early years. And, of course, Schilke now owns the designs and tooling and makes Greenhoe horns that get good reviews. I think the bottom line is that any trombone with a Greenhoe valve is worth taking a look at.
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trompanner
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by trompanner »

GBP wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:30 am I have a Greenhoe section from 2006 and my buddy has one from 2018. Mine is Edwards based and his is a Bach based horn. They look identical.
Your comment and Greenbean's really speak to one of my main curiosities about this subject and thats whether the valve itself has changed much over the years prior to Schilke's acquisition. The extent of the trombones that I've seen firsthand that have Greenhoe valves have been the Bach's, Conns, and Shires. I guess I'm a little behind the curve. :idk:
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by Inspector71 »

Well....some of this info is correct and some is not. Personally I'd rather not get into "who said what and did what to whom."

I will speak, however, about the changes in the valve during my tenure working for Gary.

When I started in 2002, the rotors were two part blanks that only had the bore milled out....one half on each side like a clam-shell. The two halves were then brazed together. After that, the final machining of the spindles and whatnot was completed and then fit to a casing after that.....blah blah blah. In roughly 2004, there was a major change to the rotor after 3 and 4 axis CNC machines were discovered to have the ability to make the valve in one piece. The over all profile was changed also but the basic function of the design remained intact.

This is the readers digest version but it should answer a question or two.

MDM
Last edited by Inspector71 on Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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trompanner
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Re: History of the Greenhoe

Post by trompanner »

Thank MDM and everybody for educating me! I appreciate it!
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