Bach instruments and their consistency.

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imsevimse
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Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by imsevimse »

I know the New York Bachs and Mnt Vernon Bachs are well regarded but what about later Bach trombones. I know Greenhoe took Bachs apart and put them together just to remove tensions in the bell sections.

I have heard of inconsistency problems with Bachs. It might be just rumours or it has some truths to it. Please contribute to this discussion if you have experience or a theory.

1. When did the bad periods in Bach production exist? (Start and stop of each period)
2. What happened that made them bad. What was it in construction that caused the problem? Characteriistics?
3. Why did it happen?
4 How did people react to the problems beside leave the Bachs to Greenhoe to take apart and put together?
5. (What I've heard) New Bachs are better again. When did that happen and how come they are considered good again?

Speak freely!

./Tom
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Burgerbob »

There were bad Bachs starting in about 1928, ending in 2019 or so.

Every age of Bachs has bad horns and amazing ones. Some of the eras have a few more of one than the other. The company has moved many times, been under new management many times, been under strike, you name it.

The only way to know if a horn is good is to play that particular one.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by norbie2018 »

It doesn't seem that Conn instruments have the same reputation until a recent period. Any reasons for that?
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Burgerbob »

Conn had the Abilene period (arguably worse than anything Bach went through), and there are plenty of Elkhart duds as well. No one is exempt!
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by norbie2018 »

The Texas period - how could I forget?
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by imsevimse »

Burgerbob wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:34 pm There were bad Bachs starting in about 1928, ending in 2019 or so.

Every age of Bachs has bad horns and amazing ones. Some of the eras have a few more of one than the other. The company has moved many times, been under new management many times, been under strike, you name it.

The only way to know if a horn is good is to play that particular one.
Thank's!

That was what I suspected. That's why I've never bought a Bach unseen. Strange is the ones I've had the chance to buy have all been good trombones. One exception was a New York Bach 6 model VII that I got cheap but that was because the leadpipe was cracked. When the leadpipe was replaced it became a fantastic horn that many friends have tried and like very much. I have a Mnt Vernon Bach 12 that is a keep and a straight Bach 42 and a Bach 50 that I bought from a professional player. He had picked them from a big heard of trombones. According to him there were not many in that heard that were good. These two are real good in my hands too. In the 80-ies I did order a Bach 39 Alto that I bought without trying it. I could not play alto so it was no point to evaluate that horn for me, but I heard the principal of the Swedish Opera house in Stockholm had been in the shop and asked to try my horn the very day it arrived and was so impressed he wanted to buy it, but the shop owner could not allow that because it was ordered by me. Later when I learned to play that horn I too found out it was very good I guess that was a lucky shot. My Bach 36BO i found in a shop here in 2008 and instantly fell in love. This weekend I stumbled over a 1989 Bach 42B that I tried. It belonged to a friend who brought two trombones to a rehearsal. He switched between them and asked if I could hear a difference. At the end of the rehearsal he asked me to play both. The other horn was a good Elkhart Conn 88H. The Bach 42B just sang in my hands. It was a perfect match so I said if he ever thought of selling that horn he could phone me. The very next day after the concert I bought the horn.

I must be a lucky guy because all those Bach horns are great horns. Two years ago I played one Bach 42 that was called a "Infinity-model". That was a brand new horn also terrific. The bad horns never seem to cross my way.

Then I hear all those romours that make me uncertain. I have bought a lot of Conns, Olds, Yamahas, Benge and Holtons on ebay but never had the guts to buy a Bach because of the romours.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Burgerbob »

I have bought every Bach I have owned (maybe 15? 16?) sight unseen. Some of them have been not great, some amazing.

You take the same risk, to perhaps a smaller degree, with an instrument from any manufacture. Yes, even Yamaha, or Edwards, or Shires, anything.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by imsevimse »

Burgerbob wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:52 pm I have bought every Bach I have owned (maybe 15? 16?) sight unseen. Some of them have been not great, some amazing.

You take the same risk, to perhaps a smaller degree, with an instrument from any manufacture. Yes, even Yamaha, or Edwards, or Shires, anything.
Yes every horn bought unseen is a risk, but if you know the brand and year of production you can avoid the risky ones. Naturally you can not be safe from any ebay buy but when an ebay horn gets cleaned up and the bumps are removed the dud often turn's into a dimond. All but a few I've bought on ebay have been great horns. I would say less than 5% have a problem of some sort that makes it not the best buy for the money. That's one out of twenty. Still even those horns can be played well and sound good. They just have something that is awkward, often it is the slide.

/Tom
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by castrubone »

My advice would be to not worry about when a horn was made...in fact it might be best to not know at all until after you've tried it. There are great and not so great horns from every era of Bach, Conn, etc. And what you might think is amazing might be a dud to someone else!

All of these horns, even the "high end" ones (excluding true boutique makers like M&W, etc) are made in large (sometimes very large) factories by regular people just like any other product. They attempt to be consistent in terms of having a generally high manufacturing quality, but they have never and will never be consistent in terms of each horn being 100% identical. This is actually good, IMO! It means there is a wide variability and that every single horn is different and has it's own unique qualities.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Leanit »

The other funky thing about instrument building is that the difference between a winner and a brick isn't always something you can measure with a machine. If it were, they wouldn't ship clunkers.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by elmsandr »

Leanit wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:14 am The other funky thing about instrument building is that the difference between a winner and a brick isn't always something you can measure with a machine. If it were, they wouldn't ship clunkers.
I agree and disagree with this statement. Being in manufacturing and often working in gaging, I bet you could build a gage to inspect whatever feature of this we wanted. I bet we could quantify it perfectly.

Problem is, I don't think we can agree on what 'good' is. There are clear cut features that we can agree on, but on some of the more nuanced playing characteristics? I don't think we can all agree on what sounds different let alone what sounds better.

Is a ringing bell or a dead bell better? When you thump it with a thumb, what do you want? And this is just choosing one item that they actually check at Bach while spinning flares.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by JoeStanko »

I have found that the assembly of the parts makes the most difference..leadpipes are also inconsistent For the 50, other than different valve sections, the parts have been *essentially* the same for around 60 years.

My Mt. Vernon slide fits new bell section receivers and the bell section fits new slide tenons. Yes, there are part variations with the receivers and tenons that result in a mismatch but the overall dimensions have been the same since Elkhart (Mt. Vernon bells likely have a French bead).

Having long lost count of how many 50 variants I've owned and tried, I have found it best to have bell sections assembled from parts - careful assembly results in a remarkable consistency regardless of era with a nice ring to the sound.

A "bad" horn may be due to tensions from the parts being force fit, misaligned, poorly soldered or a combination of all of this. That manifests itself as the bell ringing on one or two notes and/or poor response in a certain position/series. The "open wrap" models are a worse design then the standard wraps - more braces poorly placed. Sure, some are good but more variable. Or a poorly made stock leadpipe..try the bell section with a different slide and vice versa.

Best advice - have the entire bell section taken apart, carefully rebuild the main tuning slide, then the bell section aligned with the main tuning slide when assembled.

Joe Stanko
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by bimmerman »

I think the key with finding a good Bach is to buy one that its owner raves about but can't keep for whatever reason. I've had great luck with that.

Corp era LT16M: bought for a song from one of my Dad's bandmates who hadn't used it in years. Took it to a lesson, was told by my lesson teacher to buy it so she wouldn't, and just plays incredibly well.
90s era LT8G: bought from a forum member here and is an awesome little horn. Nice mix between small sound and nice rich sound.
MtV 9: Uses a 6vii bell, but man, upper range is fantastic, nice fat sound when needed. Great player, bought from a forum member.
00's LT16M with Sterling bell: plays great, most responsive of the four and can get great color from the bell. Most open playing of the four. Bought from Brassark.
NY 36: outplays my Edwards .525 without question. Amazing horn, but it's Dad's, so playing it is a rare occurrence. Definitely hoping to buy/own one day.

Each of these was a well-regarded horn by its prior/current owner, and so I didn't feel like I was taking a risk buying it. So far that's worked well in my favor! None of the above horns have been modified to my knowledge.

The most interesting thing to me though is that the 00's LT16M bell section has slightly different tenon geometry compared to all the others, making it not fully thread onto the other horns' slides.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by elmsandr »

JoeStanko wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:07 pm I have found that the assembly of the parts makes the most difference..leadpipes are also inconsistent For the 50, other than different valve sections, the parts have been *essentially* the same for around 60 years.
...
This is a great point. I have several Old Bachs. NY 34, 45, and 50; Mt V 42 and 45, and Elkhart 42 and 50. The parts that are supposed to interchange do on all of them. Some minor spec changes over the years; the valve tubing on the oldest 50s was different, and the older valves were different, but the tubing all fits, the ferrules fit, everything is remarkably consistent.

Funny how with parts that are dimensionally consistent over DECADES get a reputation for being inconsistent.

Cheers,
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Bassbonechandler »

Burgerbob wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:29 pm Conn had the Abilene period (arguably worse than anything Bach went through), and there are plenty of Elkhart duds as well. No one is exempt!
What years did the abilene period take place during?
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Oslide »

elmsandr wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:54 am Is a ringing bell or a dead bell better? When you thump it with a thumb, what do you want? And this is just choosing one item that they actually check at Bach while spinning flares.
Please forgive me for deviating a bit, but this is too interesting not to ask - how do they check this?
During spinning the bell is on the mandrel. Do they take it off, thump it, and put it back if required?
And what sound are they looking for?
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Bonearzt »

JoeStanko wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:07 pm I have found that the assembly of the parts makes the most difference..leadpipes are also inconsistent For the 50, other than different valve sections, the parts have been *essentially* the same for around 60 years.

My Mt. Vernon slide fits new bell section receivers and the bell section fits new slide tenons. Yes, there are part variations with the receivers and tenons that result in a mismatch but the overall dimensions have been the same since Elkhart (Mt. Vernon bells likely have a French bead).

Having long lost count of how many 50 variants I've owned and tried, I have found it best to have bell sections assembled from parts - careful assembly results in a remarkable consistency regardless of era with a nice ring to the sound.

A "bad" horn may be due to tensions from the parts being force fit, misaligned, poorly soldered or a combination of all of this. That manifests itself as the bell ringing on one or two notes and/or poor response in a certain position/series. The "open wrap" models are a worse design then the standard wraps - more braces poorly placed. Sure, some are good but more variable. Or a poorly made stock leadpipe..try the bell section with a different slide and vice versa.

Best advice - have the entire bell section taken apart, carefully rebuild the main tuning slide, then the bell section aligned with the main tuning slide when assembled.

Joe Stanko
My thoughts EXACTLY Joe!!!
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by etbone »

Bassbonechandler wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:51 am
Burgerbob wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:29 pm Conn had the Abilene period (arguably worse than anything Bach went through), and there are plenty of Elkhart duds as well. No one is exempt!
What years did the abilene period take place during?
According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.G._Conn ... erard_Conn
About 1970-1986ish When UMI bought it. Moved production to King Eastlake plant.

Production plants, don't move over night. Some say, N and R series (Made in USA) 88h, are Abilene horns. I have owned a N series, which had "Made in Elkhart, Ind, USA." inscribed. R probably is an Abilene. (made in USA)
BUT, I have played some very fine, Made in USA, and Made in Abilene,Tx. (pre-1976)

Various reasons, for decline, in that period.

70-80s, not a hallmark quality, for USA manufacturing...for many industries.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by hornbuilder »

Production started in Abilene in 1973. (Sorry, I can't site my source for that info, but the move did not happen immediately after the change of ownership)
Yes, there were bells made in Elkhart engraved "CONN made in USA", there were also Abilene horns with the same engraving. The serial number is the only definite way of telling where the horn was made.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by elmsandr »

Oslide wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:58 am
elmsandr wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:54 am Is a ringing bell or a dead bell better? When you thump it with a thumb, what do you want? And this is just choosing one item that they actually check at Bach while spinning flares.
Please forgive me for deviating a bit, but this is too interesting not to ask - how do they check this?
During spinning the bell is on the mandrel. Do they take it off, thump it, and put it back if required?
And what sound are they looking for?
After the flare is off the mandrel. And after the rim is soldered, if I recall correctly. What do you do if it isn't right? I haven't seen them find a bad one, I have only been through those departments on tours very briefly. They do not generally highlight scrap parts or re-work to customers.

From my opinion, this isn't an inspection method that should be taken too seriously. If it isn't repeatable and reproducable, how do you know what is happening? Lastly, how would it detect marginal conditions? For fun, I have used essentially the same method to determine cracks in die-cast aluminum housings. It made people feel better, but there were still cracked castings that were machined and visually rejected at assembly. If we cannot make a gage to give out a number and then put some tolerances around it, it is pretty much just opinion and will only introduce a source of variance.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by trombonedemon »

Unless the instrument is mechanically flawed, I'm not sure what they can really do as far as manufacture is concern. Its to much matter of opinion to the consumer. Are there instruments that are terrible players, of course. Still, aesthetics are in the "eye" or "ear" of the beholder, so good luck in convincing the manufacture.

Bach instruments have always played very dead in the resonance department to me, buuuut when I played my first Shires, trombone life changed for me. There bells have resonance that seems to be unparalleled. There is a consistency, maybe the type you are not looking for. There is a reason they have been in business all these years.

Are we talking about mechanical consistency or sound production?

My 2 cents.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Kbiggs »

trombonedemon wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm
Are we talking about mechanical consistency or sound production?
Which is more important for the player? For the audience? I think we all know...

While it is tempting to think that consistency in construction will lead to consistency in results, I think we’ve all seen natural materials and human interaction can lead to unpredictable results.

And what do we mean by “resonance,” anyway?
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by bigbandbone »

I'm not sure which horns are now being produced at the Conn-Selmer plant in Eastlake Ohio. I worked there building large brass for 7 years when it was UMI. I can't tell you how much binding wire we had to use to force sub-assemblies together! Crazy! Plus all operations were piece work which rewards for speed sometimes at the cost of quality.

In my repair business I experimented with cryogenically distressing horns and had some good success, but the process was expensive.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Posaunus »

bigbandbone wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:00 pm In my repair business I experimented with cryogenically distressing horns and had some good success, but the process was expensive.


I presume you meant de-stressing? (Darn auto-correct!) :idk:
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by bigbandbone »

Posaunus wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:53 pm
bigbandbone wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:00 pm In my repair business I experimented with cryogenically distressing horns and had some good success, but the process was expensive.


I presume you meant de-stressing? (Darn auto-correct!) :idk:
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Cotboneman »

I've owned two Bach trombones from the 1980's which I bought while I studied in grad school at DePaul - a 42B and a 50B. I don't know where they were assembled, but they were stamped Elkhart. I bought them both after play testing them at a local music store. They played okay, with some resistance, but they both turned out to be dogs as far as build quality goes. They suffered from noisy rotors (which no tech could satisfactorily fix, poor lacquer work, acid bleeds and red rot. And when I eventually compared them to Getzen horns they seemed really stuffy.

I eventually ditched them (after having the 42B refurbished) and switched to a Getzen Eterna 1062FDY in 1998 when I began playing bass full time. I still play that horn as my main axe to this day, and it has held up like a champ. From what I understand Bach has solved it's inconsistencies after that period and I'm glad they did. To be fair I have played on a friend's 42B of a later era and it felt much better than my old 42B. He has had no complaints about it so they probably have gotten better. I just had bad luck with my 1980's era Bach horns.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Bach42t »

Owned a pawn shop Bach 42B back in the 90s purchased while I was waiting for my Bach 42T with options to be constructed, it took nearly a year to get my new horn. I think it was from the 70s or early 80s but I'm not too sure. The lacquer was not good and it had quite a bit of red spots. I used the 42B for my freshman year in college, it looked like a dog, the slide was a dog and it wasn't the greatest sounding horn but it worked out well in terms of bridging the gap. Being a numbers guy, I remember the unimportant things. I can't believe I paid $350 for it (1997), I wish I would have kept it for that amount of money.

A much more improved variant, my 1998 42T needs some de-stressing in it's life, the tuning slide is a little tight to put on. Other than that, the genuine Orla Ed Thayer valve is excellent. Never had an issue. I don't think I'll part with it because it's got the real deal Thayer, not the Nydigger one. Constructed during a period when Bach was putting so many horns together and had such a crazy backlog, they were able to sell Bach because of the name. Now it's not the case. Competition from everywhere appears to have forced them to up their game. As an example of this and as many of you know, today C-S artists certify the horns play well and endorse individual serial numbers. That is their reality - to justify each one that it meets quality standards.

My 2013 42AG on the other hand is on another level. The construction is perfect and side-by-side, I can tell Bach has updated their tooling. The fit and finish is sharper. The stamping is cleaner and more defined. The sound is classic Bach, wide and expansive.

I like what I hear and see so far. If I could get a dream Bach 50, it would be an LT50AF3G with several factory options including lead pipes and the anniversary style engraving. A Cadillac Bach 50, American classic and American sound.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by hornbuilder »

Ed Nydigger owned the "O. E. Thayer" company well before 1998. (Valves are marked "O. E. Thayer". "Thayer Valve International" was Ed Thayer's company, which had been put out of business by Nydigger by '98. (His valves are marked "Orla Ed. Thayer", either on the cone or backplate)

Ed Thayer (Thayer Valve Int) was not legally allowed to produce his own valve by 1998. The only company doing so was O.E. Thayer. (Edwards and Shires were producing licenced versions) So any TVI valves purchased were pre-existing stock.

(Edited to correct a couple of things. Thank you Andrew)

M
Last edited by hornbuilder on Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by elmsandr »

hornbuilder wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:49 am Ed Nydigger owned the "Orla Ed Thayer" company well before 1998. (Valves are marked "Orla Ed Thayer". "Thayer Valve International" was Ed Thayer's company, which had been put out of business by Nydigger by '98. (His valves are marked "TVI") So, I hate to burst your bubble, but you are playing on a Nydigger valve.

M
Eh, I think you have that incorrect. My 1997 Tenor and 2006-ish Bass valves I purchased directly from Ed both are engraved "Orla Ed Thayer".

Nydigger owned the O.E.Thayer Company, not the Orla Ed Thayer Company.
ThayerEngraving.jpg
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Cmillar »

Consistency?

My Bach feels different every day. (... I'll blame it on the horn!...but I love her!)
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by Bach42t »

hornbuilder wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:49 am Ed Nydigger owned the "O. E. Thayer" company well before 1998. (Valves are marked "O. E. Thayer". "Thayer Valve International" was Ed Thayer's company, which had been put out of business by Nydigger by '98. (His valves are marked "Orla Ed. Thayer", either on the cone or backplate)

Ed Thayer (Thayer Valve Int) was not legally allowed to produce his own valve by 1998. The only company doing so was O.E. Thayer. (Edwards and Shires were producing licenced versions) So any TVI valves purchased were pre-existing stock.

(Edited to correct a couple of things. Thank you Andrew)

M
Well I had to dig around to find the source...

According to the Winter 1998 ITA Journal, article title "The Story of Ed Thayer and His Axial Flow Valve" to quote (page 41), "Ed and Barb have recently had their hands full with an order for over 400 valves from the Selmer Corporation".

Nothing on the valve has TVI though, only the signature.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by hornbuilder »

The article you mention was written some time before being published. I was very fortunate to be a guest of Ed and Barb Thayer for a week in 1999, (after finishing at Red Wing) They had been unable to make their own valve for @ a year at that point, if I remember correctly. They still had stock that was being sold, though. I received "cease and desist" letters from Nydigger's Lawyers because I was buying valve section tubing at the end of 1999.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by DenverBone »

I bought a 16M in 1998. I tried out four 16Ms simultaneously. The one that I bought was a significantly "better" horn than the others. It blew more open, vibrant sound and feel, even the high Bb in 3rd position was ok. The bell engraving looked better too! I played that one for 22 years and have now replaced it with a Rath.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by sterb225 »

I'll echo the sentiment that assembly is the key - as a young college player I sent my late 80s 42b bell section to The Brassslab for an open wrap treatment. Chuck pulled it apart, did his miraculous tubing bends and reassembled with almost no bracing and all stress removed. The only way to know the horn was the same after that exercise was to check the serial number. Some lucky guy lifted it from me for a song about 15 years ago so I could 'upgrade'.
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by whitbey »

My Bass Bach 50 was bought in the 70’s from Giardinelli in New York. The sales guy I worked with said the horn was originally a single valve Mount Vernon horn that Giardinelli sent to Bach to add a second valve. He said it had been in their store for years before they sent it back. There was a solder mark in the receiver. The same guy told me that was where the original lever was. With the new valve the new style twin keys were put on the bell brace. The bell was stamped Elkhorn and Corporation at that time on an angle to the original engraving. There is no serial number; it was lost when the horn was reassembled. A solder joint let go in the mid 80’s and my tech reassembled the bell section. Before this the horn was really good, after reassembly it was incredible. I think Bach variations in their quality of assembly shows.
Edwards Sterling bell 525/547
Edwards brass bell 547/562
Edwards Jazz w/ Ab valve 500"/.508"
Markus Leuchter Alto Trombone
Bass Bach 50 Bb/F/C dependent.
Cerveny oval euphonium
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nebtrombone
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Re: Bach instruments and their consistency.

Post by nebtrombone »

I have been to the factory a number of times to pick out horns for Thompson Music in Omaha, Nebraska. I am always pleasantly surprised at the consistency of the instruments. If I try out a line with thirty five Bach 42s (all permutations), it's really difficult picking out a best or even a worst. This goes for Conns and Kings as well. When I talk to the craftsmen who make these instruments my impression is that they take a lot of pride in their work. Since Phil Brown has been with the company, the trombones have gotten better and better. I am sure that an occasional bad horn gets through the process, but it's been my experience that this is pretty rare. Just one guy's observation and opinion.
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