bass Trombone mpc observation

[Bach5G]

I have been playing on a Yeo for about six months. I have good days and bad days.

Today I lined up a bunch of 1 and 1/4-sized mpcs: 1 & 1/4, 1 &1/4GM, Kanstul GR, and a Hammond 20. All of them just felt so much easier and sounded so much better than the Yeo. High range is better and the low range (I can get to about D/Db without shifting) is about the same. It seems to take so much more effort to play on a big mpc and it always feels like a 60-size mpc like the Yeo is just one bridge too far for my chops, as if there is a physical discontinuity between 28.00 and 29.00 mm.

Or should I just stick with the Yeo, play more long tones and fuggedaboudit?

[TheBoneRanger]

Sounds like you answered your own question.

Stick in a 1.25 and be happy.

Andrew

[Fridge]

I would go to the smaller pieces. Less work. I remember Van Haney telling me a story about a young player asking about playing a 1g in the early 80’s. Van said as long as you can practice 3 hours a day minimum, you can play giant equipment. You also have to remember that you must blend with tenor trombones of various sizes. You have to sound like a trombone, not a tuba with a slide.

Fridge

[BGuttman]

How is the low range on the smaller mouthpieces? If the only thing you lose is double pedals that might be a good tradeoff.

When I haven't been playing a lot of bass I find my Marcinkiewicz GR is great. When I'm playing a lot of bass I can go back to my 112/L/L7 setup.

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, I vote for the 1 1/4 mouthpieces all the way. I'm obviously not you, but I make a sound more like a trombone with a 1 1/4 than with a 60 sized piece. I've done the same thing with a lap full of mouthpieces, cycling through them and playing various licks high and low, articulated and held notes, I keep coming back to the 1 1/4 out of a set of pieces larger and smaller.

[Doug Elliott]

I am never in favor of using equipment that requires a lot of practice time just to keep working.

[MTbassbone]

I am never in favor of using equipment that requires a lot of practice time just to keep working.

This

[modelerdc]

Mouthpiece size is relative. Whats large for one person may be small for another. Play what you sound best on. I'm not in favor of a lot of un necessary switching, but as your playing evolves you might find at some point something else works better for you. If so change and don't look back!

[FOSSIL]

Why are you playing the Yeo ? Is it because you selected it as the mouthpiece that best works with you and the trombone and most easily gives you the results you want ?
Probably not.... most of us are heavily influenced by those around us and the opinions of those we look up to and this guides our choices... sometimes in less than good ways.
The common wisdom on what qualities are assigned to various mouthpiece aspects are in many ways, plain wrong. Doug recently said the same. The mouthpiece HAS to work with the trombone first.... there are so many mis matches being battled with out there. Think about that first. Second, it has to feel nice AND sound nice.... you have a hell of a search ahead unless you keep those basic requirements uppermost in your mind.
Good luck,

Chris

[harrisonreed]

I still wonder why bass trombonists would need to go larger than a 2G. 1.5G tops. If the "shoe" analogy is semi-correct, and bass trombonists aren't any bigger than any other humans, then I think the super huge bass mouthpiece is an old fashioned thing that came out of the necessity of not having CNC, and having to use the same blank for every mouthpiece.

I get it for tuba and contrabass -- there's only so deep you can go in the cup before you have to start making it wider to keep increasing the cup volume and maintain a balance.

[FOSSIL]

I still wonder why bass trombonists would need to go larger than a 2G. 1.5G tops. If the "shoe" analogy is semi-correct, and bass trombonists aren't any bigger than any other humans, then I think the super huge bass mouthpiece is an old fashioned thing that came out of the necessity of not having CNC, and having to use the same blank for every mouthpiece.

I get it for tuba and contrabass -- there's only so deep you can go in the cup before you have to start making it wider to keep increasing the cup volume and maintain a balance.

Interesting thoughts....
You don't generally need to go larger than the 2/1.5G size unless you choose to use an instrument designed with a big mouthpiece like the Yamaha Yeo models, which whilst playable on small pieces sound bright and a little harsh unless a large mouthpiece is used.
The original commercial low register specialists used the smaller bass pieces, but as double rotors came in, there was a race to bigger mouthpieces to overcome the resistance of the double set ups. Valves became freer and more open but few people went back to smaller mouthpieces as they felt that they had 'progressed' away from small.
In the UK there was a move back to small, largely through the legacy of Ray Premru and later, Bob Hughes, and also the use of vintage Conns which work much better with small mouthpieces.

Chris

[GabrielRice]

I settled into a mouthpiece just a little bigger than a 1-1/4 (a Doug Elliott 112/K, comparable to a Schilke 59) in my sophomore year of college, after starting on a 1-1/2 and then going to a 59, then a 60, then back to the 59. I was studying with Ray Premru at the time, and he didn't like how I sounded when I tried to go bigger OR smaller than that.

I stayed on mouthpieces comparable to that for more than the first decade of my professional career, winning a couple of auditions and building a good network. It wasn't until I started to be consistently faced with extreme low register demands that I looked at bigger options, and I had to make some adjustments to how I play to do so. Now I play a Doug Elliott that's more like a 60 size.

I always encourage my students to stay on moderately sized mouthpieces for as long as possible. In my world, clear pitch center is more important than big sound, and I discourage any mouthpiece choice that makes it difficult to play with a clear pitch center. Some big mouthpieces - and the Yeo is typically one of them - lend themselves better to the kind of clarity I insist on than others, but too big is too big.

At some point your needs may change, but based on what you're describing I would recommend going with the mouthpiece that gets sounds you like as easily as possible.

[ChadA]

I still wonder why bass trombonists would need to go larger than a 2G. 1.5G tops. If the "shoe" analogy is semi-correct, and bass trombonists aren't any bigger than any other humans, then I think the super huge bass mouthpiece is an old fashioned thing that came out of the necessity of not having CNC, and having to use the same blank for every mouthpiece.

I get it for tuba and contrabass -- there's only so deep you can go in the cup before you have to start making it wider to keep increasing the cup volume and maintain a balance.

Someone from Arthur Pryor's generation might ask why bells need to be more than 6 inches, 6 1/2 tops and why anyone would need any mouthpiece as big as what many people play on now. Times, instruments, and preferences change. For me, I get the sound and the ease of play I want on a bigger piece. A 1.5 G is too small for the way I play and the way I want to sound. But mileage always varies and lots of people will sound great on smaller mouthpieces.

[WGWTR180]

I do find this thread extremely interesting. If you know me you know I play on a 1 and 1/2G piece. I started on a Schilke 59, moved to a 60, and then played a custom piece made by Russell Wilson, a machinist on Long Island. After years of playing that huge piece I decided I'd start to whittle down the size piece I play on. Not to bore you with all of the steps once I settled in on the 1 and 1/2G it took me months to get the extreme low register to speak properly. So much more plays into the end result of your playing than the mouthpiece. Lip size, teeth placement, air efficiency, and other factors have an effect. The only thing I don't agree with is most everyone says that you sacrifice the extreme low register playing a small mouthpiece. I know some 1 and 1/2G players who can lay waste with their double pedals. Not all can but it is possible.

[GabrielRice]

I know some 1 and 1/2G players who can lay waste with their double pedals. Not all can but it is possible.

And if you doubt this, just listen to any recording of the Maria Schneider Orchestra. George Flynn has about the biggest bass trombone sound I've ever heard - I've heard him live too, and I can tell you for sure that it's not a recording studio trick - on an Elkhart 62H and a 1-1/2G

I can't do it, but it can certainly be done.

[mrdeacon]

I still wonder why bass trombonists would need to go larger than a 2G. 1.5G tops. If the "shoe" analogy is semi-correct, and bass trombonists aren't any bigger than any other humans, then I think the super huge bass mouthpiece is an old fashioned thing that came out of the necessity of not having CNC, and having to use the same blank for every mouthpiece.

See I thought the same thing and I spent two years on 2G and 1.5G pieces trying to make them work for me. When I was in tip-top shape they really worked but if I slacked off on my playing at all it just didn't work.

I took some lessons with Doug, fixed some chop stuff and switched back to a large 114 (Schilke 60 sized piece)... bam! Within a few days I was playing higher and lower than I had for years. Ironically since the last time, I was on this exact same large Doug Elliott setup!

For some people the large rims for bass really do work. I can play a smaller piece but the larger rims just flat out work with my chops better. Long term I might switch back to the 2 and 1.5 stuff... or a drastically smaller cup and keep the big rim... I love the sound of the small stuff so much... but for now I'm going to stick with the larger stuff!

[MTbassbone]

I have found that if I use a wider rim diameter, with a medium wide rim, and a shallower cup this seems to be a good mix for me. Plus I don't feel I have to work at it to make it sound good most of the time. Right now I use a DE LB mW112 (lexan), J cup, J8 shank. For whatever reason I like the lexan rims Doug makes.

[Bach5G]

.

[Doug Elliott]

I'd really like to see George Flynn play sometime to see what he's doing and what embouchure type he is. I'm fascinated by how some players are able to play fluently in the extreme low range on smaller mouthpieces, because most players can't do it.

I wonder what he uses on contrabass.

[FOSSIL]

I'd really like to see George Flynn play sometime to see what he's doing and what embouchure type he is. I'm fascinated by how some players are able to play fluently in the extreme low range on smaller mouthpieces, because most players can't do it.

I wonder what he uses on contrabass.

Well, the funny thing is that most pro bass trombone players in the UK can do it. Two different worlds now. US and UK. There is a technique, a way of making it happen.
It's like playing Conns in orchestras.... we still do it. All but over in the US.

Chris

[Doug Elliott]

People of different ethnic backgrounds tend to have different lip textures, among other physical differences, and that MAY be a factor.

[WGWTR180]

I'd really like to see George Flynn play sometime to see what he's doing and what embouchure type he is. I'm fascinated by how some players are able to play fluently in the extreme low range on smaller mouthpieces, because most players can't do it.

I wonder what he uses on contrabass.

Even though George and I have gotten together a few times and played I couldn't tell you what his embouchure type is but he can still definitely get around. When I moved to CT in 1988 I was invited to come play in a local big band where I began playing 3rd. The bass trombonist, his name I'll leave out but you know him Doug, was consistently able to play down in the extreme pedal range when needed on a Bach 1 and 1/2G and a custom Bach 50(dependent) with a Beryllium bell flare. I mean consistently down to pedal D/C. I knew another bass trombonist who worked at Epcot for years who played on a Marcinkiewecz 1 and 1/2G size piece who could just rip sheet metal down there.
Doug for the last 20 years or so I'd be curious to see what mouthpiece bass trombonists begin on. When I began playing in 1985 I started on a Schilke 59. Today I'd say most players would consider that small and probably begin on, or quickly move to, bigger pieces. When I transitioned down it took about 6 months before I felt 100% down there. Maybe many could do it but just cannot commit the time. Not saying anyone or everyone needs to move down but it's just a thought. Ehhh what do I know?

[Doug Elliott]

In some ways I suspect the ability to play extreme low on a smaller piece, with facility and fluidity, gets into the territory of "equipment that requires a lot of practice time just to keep working."

[Burgerbob]

In some ways I suspect the ability to play extreme low on a smaller piece, with facility and fluidity, gets into the territory of "equipment that requires a lot of practice time just to keep working."

[Fridge]

Well, most of you don’t know I studied with Paul Faulise in the early 80’s. He could pulverize pedal notes on his old Bach 11/2 g. Pedal F’s like a Mack truck. VERY slight shift around pedal G/Gb. So minuscule it was almost non existent. And play those lip slurs absolutely flawless. The one that starts on low Eb up and back down to a Dble pedal Bb was a thing of beauty. He never used anything but a 11/2 g.

Fridge

[Slideorama]

Paul on a dance band gig, good players!



George in a little rehearsal, with a big sound

[FOSSIL]

In some ways I suspect the ability to play extreme low on a smaller piece, with facility and fluidity, gets into the territory of "equipment that requires a lot of practice time just to keep working."

There's a knack to it...once you get it you just work on low register the same as everything else... no special effort. When you play big mouthpieces, small pieces seem impossible... know that, been there. Hearing George Flynn, I know why I play a 1 1/2G... what a sound....and different to the so called modern school. That's why I'm now fossil.

Chris

[WGWTR180]

In some ways I suspect the ability to play extreme low on a smaller piece, with facility and fluidity, gets into the territory of "equipment that requires a lot of practice time just to keep working."

With all due respect I disagree. Once you can do it it's not work. I never feel like I'm working to play.

[Doug Elliott]

That's really not what I meant, and it's more of a question. I'm sure everything is great if you are constantly playing a lot. But let's say right now, during this pandemic, when you're probably playing a lot less than usual... Do you lose anything on the bottom end if you find yourself playing a fraction of your usual amount? And I'm not just asking about ultimate range, I mean facility and fluidity of using that range.

When I say "equipment that requires a lot of practice time just to keep working" most of the time one might associate that with big equipment, which is often true. I'm just wondering how much that may apply at the smaller end of the scale.

If I hear somebody playing tenor on a mouthpiece that's too big for them I can immediately hear that it's too big. Usually it's also pretty obvious (to me) if it's too small for them. But on bass there's something different going on and I'm not sure what it is. Some people (like Chris and maybe you too) seem to be able to play equally well on small or big mouthpieces. Is the difference just the sound, or is it more than that? And what about sizes in between?

And then there's contrabass...

[WGWTR180]

I picked up my 2B last week to do a silly recording. I hadn't played my 2B in 6 months. After 5 minutes of playing it was like I never put it down. And I'm not using a 1 and 1/2G on the 2B. LOL.

[Fridge]

I agree with Bill. I rarely play my 3b. When I do, I don’t think too much about it. I just think of what it’s supposed to sound like. For me, I lost bottom notes and control when I played something bigger. God knows that I’ve tried things bigger, just never found anything that gave me the quality I was looking for. I’ve NEVER used anything bigger for recording sessions. Too tubby. A few young players have called me an old school player. I’ll take that as a compliment. Chris is a little older by a just a few years. Maybe I’ll be called Fossil II.

Eddie Clark

[WGWTR180]

BTW just so there's no confusion I respect what Doug does as both a player and a mouthpiece designer/maker/consultant/etc... I'm not bashing his thoughts.

[Fridge]

Hey Bill, I meant no disrespect either. Doug does incredibly great work.

Fridge

[Doug Elliott]

I understand. Again, I'm just trying to understand the bass trombone thing.

[GabrielRice]

I understand. Again, I'm just trying to understand the bass trombone thing.

Me too, Doug. Me too.

What I know is that a rim that's too big makes me work too hard, and the effects are not necessarily immediately apparent. Over time I get tight and overly muscular, the sound closes down, it gets hard to move between registers. If it's WAY too big every articulation is a little scoop, and that's apparent immediately. And even if I try to balance it with less cup volume and/or more efficient throat/backbore, the pitch center is squirrely.

A rim that's too small also makes it hard for me to move between registers, and I tend to miss notes because the target is just too small. But I don't have the other problems. I suppose over time I could get used to it, but I see no reason to.

At this point in my life the happy medium is your 114 size. I spent a long time on a 112 sized rim and always struggled to have the sound and control in the low register I needed. Then I spent a long time on a larger rim (mostly a Laskey 93D, like your 115), which helped me develop my low register facility but would tend to have diminishing returns over time as described above. The slot with the 114 feels like the right size, and I can move between registers in a way that feels right to me.

Another thing: one of the deciding factors for me when I decided to go smaller to the 114 after years on a 115 size was the tenor double hybrid mouthpiece. The 115 size always sounded awful with a shallower cup - bright and shrill and hollow in the middle. For me the 114 maintains a thickness and density to the sound that I like and can work with.

[FOSSIL]

Doug, as you know, I've used both large and small mouthpieces in professional situations, including in symphonies in large concert halls. That may make me a bit of a freak, but it is what it is. I can't use mid size stuff... seems to me to be the worst of both worlds...but big or small, my range is not affected, my sound is different but not vastly so and once adjusted, each feels like home. Low register, big and small is a different approach.... small is much more input sensitive...air flow and face have to be just right...then it's easy. Big pieces are far less fussy... I can get away with a much looser technique and still get the job done. I like the discipline of the small piece.... it keeps you straight.

Chris.

[Doug Elliott]

That's pretty much what I thought.
I don't like fussy.. or discipline

[FOSSIL]

Oh, and what's disappearing in this lockdown is volume and the stamina for playing at volume....just cannot do it at home...wouldn't want to either. .
Chris

[ssking2b]

I played for years on a Bach 1G, and now play on a Marcinkiewicz 105. No one has ever complained about my sound or range. I also double on tenor with am 11C type custom piece, and again, no complaints. All my teachers, including Haney, said my choice of bass mouthpiece was way too big for them, but as long as it worked for me...cool! Feel free to check out my credentials on my web page:

http://www.pjonestrombone.com

I think I may a slight clue as top what I am doing.

[Posaunus]

Philip,

Really enjoyed your audio & video recordings. Great, stylish playing. And yours is the best sound I've ever heard from a pBone!

Would also like to hear you on bass trombone.

[Bach5G]

I’ve been trying some of my 1 and 1/4-sized
mpcs, including a Kanstul GR, a Schilke Reichenbach and a Hammond 20 BL. All of these work so much better for me than the Yeo. The Hammond officially specs out at id 28.57 mm, not far off the Yeo’s published specs, 28.72 mm. There’s much more going on, I guess. Cup depth for one. Throats are about the same. And then there’s DE’s caveat about published specs. The horn is Yamaha’s 620 bass, a step down from the Yeo horns, a basic pro level horn. Not built for large mpcs?

[Burgerbob]

I'm down to a Yeo now... horn I'm using at the moment just keeps being even pickier.

[fwbassbone]

During the lockdown I have been playing the Schilke/Reichenbach a lot on both bass trombone and euphonium and liking it. I'll be interested to see how it works in the big band and brass band. I was playing a GP6 before that.

[Rusty]

I’ve been trying some of my 1 and 1/4-sized
mpcs, including a Kanstul GR, a Schilke Reichenbach and a Hammond 20 BL. All of these work so much better for me than the Yeo. The Hammond officially specs out at id 28.57 mm, not far off the Yeo’s published specs, 28.72 mm. There’s much more going on, I guess. Cup depth for one. Throats are about the same. And then there’s DE’s caveat about published specs. The horn is Yamaha’s 620 bass, a step down from the Yeo horns, a basic pro level horn. Not built for large mpcs?

I have a 620g and yes, it really only played well for me on smaller mouthpieces, a DE MB107 or 108 rim with an I cup, or other 2G sized pieces really bring the horn to life.

[bigbandbone]

Oh, and what's disappearing in this lockdown is volume and the stamina for playing at volume....just cannot do it at home...wouldn't want to either. .
Chris

I'm lucky in that my condo complex in FL is deserted right now. We are all snowbirds (myself included) and everyone else left weeks ago. So I go out in the pool house, play backing tracks from my IPad through a small guitar amp, and play along as loud as I want. Tomorrow back to Cleveland OH.

[Cotboneman]

People of different ethnic backgrounds tend to have different lip textures, among other physical differences, and that MAY be a factor.

[Thrawn22]

Is a yeo on the light side weight wise? I've found weight plays a part on mpc/ horn combinations in relation to ease of playing.

[Burgerbob]

Is a yeo on the light side weight wise? I've found weight plays a part on mpc/ horn combinations in relation to ease of playing.

No. It's pretty heavy, I'd say like a Greg Black medium weight.

[Bach5G]

DE 114, Lexan 134 g
Bach 1 1/4G 146
Yeo 167 g

[Bach5G]

Kanstul GR 143 g
Schilke Reichenbach 152g
Griego Alessi 4C 191g
Hammond 20BL 149g
Marc 1 1/2 106g
Bach 1 1/2G 156g


No G Blacks to weigh.