Mouthpiece rabbit hole! Help needed!

[bigbandbone]

About 2 years ago I switched to bass bone. I played straight tenor professionally waaaay back when. Took 40+ years off. Retired and now and playing bass. I really enjoy it and seem to have an affinity for it. But I'm so far down the mouthpiece rabbit hole I don't know which way to turn.

Playing a 72H. Playing big band and community band and some symphony band. Primary focus is big band.

I started on a Benge 1 1/2G. Progressed to a Bach 1 1/2G with Remington shank. Then Marcinkowitz 1 1/2G with Remington shank. Then Denis Wick 0AL. Then opened the Bach up to .281. Now, just got a Denis Wick 1AL which just feels "odd".

I like some aspects of all of them. But cannot figure out which to commit to.

How do you decide? Don't want to spend anymore $'s! My wife would kill me!

[Mv2541]

I am obviously no expert, but I would suggest finding a rim size (or size range) that works for your face. I don't play Wicks, but the 0AL isn't in the same ballpark as a 1.5 right? The rim shapes are also quite different.

Which one is most comfortable? And which sounds closest to what you want to sound like? Are those two answers the same piece? If so your choice is pretty easy. If not, you probably have to make a compromise or keep searching.

[hyperbolica]

Maybe you can trade some of your stuff for other stuff. If the 1.5g doesn't do it for you try a 1.25g. That's what I use. Not that I'm any example to follow especially on bass, but the 1.25g is a good middle size that still plays musically and gets nice low notes.

[FOSSIL]

As I said recently, a mouthpiece does nothing.. ...it allows you to do things...some allow more than others. Look at it that way and the search may become less frantic. You say progress from one to another...I'd say move from one to another...how was it progress? Ditch the Wicks...they work for relatively few, go back to the Marc ...it has the right shank for your horn, is a size that worked for loads of people for years and it's still as it left the factory. Give it a bit of time and find out how it works... don't try and battle it into submission...find out how it wants to be played. If after a mouth or two...or ten...you still have frustrations you might think again. No mouthpiece helps you with everything (allows you to do everything).... you have to choose a mouthpiece that you AND the trombone get on with basically...then work.

Chris

[Posaunus]

I must agree with Chris (FOSSIL) - the Marcinkiewicz 1½G (pretty much identical to my fine Marcinkiewicz "Geo Roberts") should work very well with the Conn 72H – a well balanced combination, in my opinion. I doubt that your "face" demands anything larger. As Chris suggested, try to make it work for a few months. You'll probably be pleased. I'm very impressed with Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces.

[Kingfan]

The mouthpiece is one part of a three part equation - player, horn, mouthpiece. What works for somebody else in the same horn may not work for you, and what works for you may not work for somebody else. My suggestion is to check with Doug Elliott, a member here. He can guide you out of the rabbit hole and send you in the right direction. He did for me. www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com

[Fridge]

Read the post from Chris. There is NO perfect mouthpiece. It’s always a compromise to some degree. There are MANY versions of a 11/2. I ended up with a Parke version. (Alan Kaplan model) I like it as much as one of my Mt Vernons. The Marc. is a good match for your 72h.

Eddie Clark

[modelerdc]

One way is to put two or three mouthpieces out where you can reach them while practicing. It's not necessary or even helpful to know which is which. put one in the horn and begin your practice routine. every so often switch randomly between mouthpieces. Don't even bother to see which is which. At some point as you are drawn into the music you'll forget to or won't want to switch anymore. Put the others away and just play this one. It might surprise you which one you pick this way!

[tbonesullivan]

If you are having a lot of trouble, and can't really get it right, Doug Elliott. Before you go any further down the rabbit hole and end up with a pile of mouthpieces you don't use.

[Cotboneman]

We trombonists are just as bad on collecting horns and equipment as guitar players are. I might know of one guy who has only one horn. Most of us have four or more. The same goes for mouthpieces. I may have ten or twelve, which is probably a modest number. I go by feel; Wicks are not my cup of tea. Their flat rims feel very uncomfortable on my face. I have fuller lips and like thinner, more rounded rims. For me the Schilke 59 is my all-around favorite and go to, but I will also play a 60 in orchestra if the piece we're playing calls for a lot of unison or octave work with the tuba, like you may find in Rimsky-Korsakov scores. Lately I have been playing on a Griego 1 in my trombone ensembles; I find I can produced a lighter tone quality on it.

No one piece will work for everyone. If you can reach out to a professional like Doug Elliott or Christian Griego, I would encourage you to.

[ericcheng2005]

We trombonists are just as bad on collecting horns and equipment as guitar players are. I might know of one guy who has only one horn. Most of us have four or more. The same goes for mouthpieces. I may have ten or twelve, which is probably a modest number. I go by feel; Wicks are not my cup of tea. Their flat rims feel very uncomfortable on my face. I have fuller lips and like thinner, more rounded rims. For me the Schilke 59 is my all-around favorite and go to, but I will also play a 60 in orchestra if the piece we're playing calls for a lot of unison or octave work with the tuba, like you may find in Rimsky-Korsakov scores. Lately I have been playing on a Griego 1 in my trombone ensembles; I find I can produced a lighter tone quality on it.

No one piece will work for everyone. If you can reach out to a professional like Doug Elliott or Christian Griego, I would encourage you to.

Same, flat rims feel super constricting on my face. Are Wick rims really that flat? I've never played a Wick before.

[BGuttman]

Some people swear by Wick rims and others swear at them. Yes, they are quite flat -- flatter than any other mouthpiece I own.

If you find you don't like them you are in some very good company.

[TromboneMonkey]

Are Wick rims really that flat? I've never played a Wick before.

They're fairly flat. Keep in mind too that "flatness" is just one variable in that long equation.

A rim can be higher in the middle and tapered off on the outside and still be "flat". I find Pickett's rims to be like this. Makes them feel very small. Conversely, the old Bellaire rims were higher on the outside and deeper on the inside, but still extremely "flat", way flatter than the Wick by my estimation, but feel way bigger than their diameter would indicate. Same conventions go for round rims. Then you have things like sharpness of the bite, thickness of the rim, rate of taper immediately below the rim, rim material, etc. All of these things affect how a rim "contour" feels.

Ultimately, the only way to know if you like something or not is to try it.

[TromboneMonkey]

Are Wick rims really that flat? I've never played a Wick before.

They're fairly flat. Keep in mind too that "flatness" is just one variable in that long equation.

A rim can be higher in the middle and tapered off on the outside and still be "flat". I find Pickett's rims to be like this. Makes them feel very small. Conversely, the old Bellaire rims were higher on the outside and deeper on the inside, but still extremely "flat", way flatter than the Wick by my estimation, but feel way bigger than their diameter would indicate. Same conventions go for round rims. Then you have things like sharpness of the bite, thickness of the rim, rate of taper immediately below the rim, rim material, etc. All of these things affect how a rim "contour" feels.

Ultimately, the only way to know if you like something or not is to try it.

Which leads me to your original question: take them on a gig. The proof is in the pudding. One will work better than the others.

[bigbandbone]

I want to thank everyone who has offered thoughts and advice. As I think through my indecision I've realized some things.
Even though there have been some negative opinions, I find that I do like the Denis Wick Heritage Edition mouthpieces. To me they feel comfortable and I like the sound I can get from them that I cannot get from Bach or Marcinkiewicz.
I've looked over the music I currently am asked to play and only a small percentage of it requires anything lower than pedal Bb. But on the tunes that do require notes down to pedal Eb, those notes need to be played with presence and in time.
I can play that range with presence and in time on the larger 0AL, but not on the 1&2AL's.
But on the 0AL I loose some range and clarity of tone in the mid to upper range.
So, do I keep the good lower range and try to develop a better mid and upper register on the bigger piece? Or do I keep the smaller piece for better mid's and high's and try to develop a 100% pedal register?
A difficult decision for me to make.

[FOSSIL]

Whatever the mouthpiece you have to work at something....and in general, everything....the heritage 1AL is a copy of a guy called Dave Stewart's Schilke 58.... I had that from DW himself....so it's pretty mainstream. Not a total copy as it's shorter and the rim is a little different...at least on the pre-pro model DW gave me. The 0AL is quite a bit deeper and more open....
A-B comparisons often give false impressions...choose your poison and work...

Chris

[BGuttman]

I usually suggest choosing a size for the lower register and doing rangebuilding to get the upper.

[LumberJill]

I think you’ve come up against the true paradox of the big band bass trombone here. How do you blend with the king 2b’d on a unison shout chorus above the staff on a Basie chart and then keep up with the bari sax in the valve and pedal register on a Bob Mintzer chart? (not to mention the stuff that Maria Schneider is writing for contra bass)

This paradox will always be there and no equipment will solve it for any of us. That’s why it’s a paradox. I think you’re right to address the need to get the low register to speak instantly and in time. Those are the notes we’re there to play. That’s what we get paid for. A really big mouthpiece COULD make that task easier, but it probably won’t sound “right” and you’ll probably find that your sound down there gets lost in the sauce.

If you want to sound like Dave Taylor and George Flynn on those Mintzer and Schneider charts, it’s probably best to follow in their footsteps. Stick with something like that Marc 1/2 and become absolutely f-ing maniacal about playing those money notes in time. There are a hundred bass trombone players in New York that use bigger mouthpieces to get that low range to speak on time, but Maria Schneider calls George and his 1/2 G. That’s not an accident.

[harrisonreed]

If you need to blend with small 2Bs, I know people who have had success with the small Ferguson / Minick bad trombone mouthpieces, as well as the smaller Dave Taylor piece from Griego.

[Posaunus]

Stick with something like that Marc 1/2 ... George and his 1/2 G.

Jill,

Do you mean Marc 1½G and ... Bach 1½G?

I'm not familiar with the mouthpieces that Dave Taylor or George Flynn play.

[WGWTR180]

I think you’ve come up against the true paradox of the big band bass trombone here. How do you blend with the king 2b’d on a unison shout chorus above the staff on a Basie chart and then keep up with the bari sax in the valve and pedal register on a Bob Mintzer chart? (not to mention the stuff that Maria Schneider is writing for contra bass)

This paradox will always be there and no equipment will solve it for any of us. That’s why it’s a paradox. I think you’re right to address the need to get the low register to speak instantly and in time. Those are the notes we’re there to play. That’s what we get paid for. A really big mouthpiece COULD make that task easier, but it probably won’t sound “right” and you’ll probably find that your sound down there gets lost in the sauce.

If you want to sound like Dave Taylor and George Flynn on those Mintzer and Schneider charts, it’s probably best to follow in their footsteps. Stick with something like that Marc 1/2 and become absolutely f-ing maniacal about playing those money notes in time. There are a hundred bass trombone players in New York that use bigger mouthpieces to get that low range to speak on time, but Maria Schneider calls George and his 1/2 G. That’s not an accident.

Interesting. Well of the 100 bass trombone players working in New York I'm one and I use a 1 and 1/2G. George Flynn uses a Bach 1 and 1/2G. Dave Taylor's Griego line of mouthpieces encompasses about 5 mouthpiece sizes. Big pieces do not necessarily mean your response is quicker or will be on time. As a matter of fact many times, not referring to any particular player, the response can be slower on a bigger mouthpiece in certain musical situations. And once again that myth that you absolutely need a big mouthpiece on bass trombone so you can play really loud pedals is just that, a myth. But we'll keep going round and round on that one.

[bigbandbone]

I want to thank everyone who has chimed in with advice and opinions. A lot of good information and insights. I've decided to choose the Denis Wick Heritage Edition 1AL as my primary piece. I lost too much focus in the mid to upper register with the 0AL. And both of my 1 1/2 G size pieces feel stuffy in comparison. I'll just have to practice the pedal range even harder till I have solid pedals down to Eb.
I'll see how it goes for the next couple of months. Maybe by the time we are allowed to rehearse and perform again my mouthpiece issues will be solved!