Stainless Steel VS Titanium in loud dyanmics (MF-FFFFF)

[BrianJohnston]

Hi guys,

I'm in the market for a new mouthpiece, and am looking for something specifically to handle the heavy duty Russian symphonies (and similar) more than my current set-up. I currently use gold-plated brass (because I like the smooth/loose feeling, but I find my louds & extreme louds loose a bit of core with the brass mouthpieces. I will first explain that I love my brass mouthpieces for certain styles, (Brahms, Wagner) but when i'm looking for that extra core/edge in my sound for the heavy stuff, I was told stainless steel might pack that extra punch that i'm looking for.

I'm currently working with Giddings mouthpieces to find the right size, but i'm wondering if anyone has experimented with the stainless steel vs titanium loud & extreme loud dynamics to be able to explain the sounds/feel & all other comparisons about the two materials.

Thanks :

[bassboy]

I'm curious what in your current setup you feel isn't working well when you have to play "heavy duty" orchestra rep, and why you feel like it might be the mouthpiece?

Here's my experience with stainless steel and more limited experience with titanium.
Stainless steel (my experience is with Giddings and Houser [Parker]) has a very "clean" way of translating what the player gives to the instrument, with less "fuss" than what I'm used to with brass pieces. I observed some nice technical benefits. As far as the sound is concerned, I felt my sound was "darker" with noticeable core and markedly less overtones. I did have a very easy time playing "powerfully" but because of how crucial overtones are in blending with others, I had considerable difficulty in getting my sound to mesh with the section and the ensemble. I felt like my sound stuck out, even in soft passages where I was doing my best to play softer than everyone else. I was very happy with how much simpler it was to play many things that had given me technical challenges when on a brass mouthpiece, but the blending issue (and sound concept overall) was enough to get me back on brass pieces for good. Every once in a while, I practice on it just for fun.
Titanium is bit different in that (to my ears) it sounds much closer to brass. I noticed my sound having a nice balance of overtones and core--overall what I would call a "brighter" sound--while still having the technical cleanliness of steel. With that being said, once I started playing with others, I continued having trouble blending in a similar way to when I was on steel. Neither one in my experience really comes close to blending as naturally as brass.

If none of this makes much sense, I just would encourage you to worry more about the design of the mouthpiece than anything else, and maybe less about the material. This is potentially an endless rabbit hole to go down, but even without knowing what you play now, I'm sure there are plenty of brass mouthpiece makers and models you haven't tried yet. This might be a good time to branch out!

[SwissTbone]

You may also try the phosphor bronze pieces by ar resonance. I had good results with them for loud playing

[Burgerbob]

Yo! I know we already talked about this with my experience.

I think what you can do next is look at the other symphony players currently doing the same thing, using stainless or titanium pieces. AFAIK... I can't think of any. Not saying that should be the final arbiter, but it may help you.

[islander]

Slightly off-topic but maybe helpful. In the spirit of extreme mouthpiece experimentation I had a couple of my 1.5Gs made out of a 25/75 copper tungsten composite...which were then silver plated. The result were mouthpieces heavy as house bricks that played fiercely loudly and darkly. Its one public appearance was playing Shostakovich 5 (funnily enough) where it acquitted itself OK, but I learned all I needed to know about that metal during that performance. It's a one-trick pony, its power came at the high cost of lifeless overtones and a certain brittle quality to the sound in higher registers.

It may be that steel or titanium, applied to the right mouthpiece design, might help you get to that sound that you're thinking of. However, titanium is more likely to take you further away from that heavy sound. I make my mouthpieces out of brass and zirconium. At least as far as these two materials work on my (two) models, brass is revealed to be amply dark and loud, whereas zirconium has a warmer and more responsive quality than brass.

Bill Symington

[FOSSIL]

I would echo Bill's comments, having played his mouthpieces in the three metals he talks about. I think Zirconium makes it a little easier to really crank it out, but this is fundamentally a player issue, not an equipment issue.

Chris

[BrianJohnston]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments so far. I will echo that I have played on a bronze mouthpiece, and it really provides a warm, easy, free sound that's excellent for stuff like Tannhauser & similar, But i'm looking for something huge, dark, that rings with a nice core without being harsh, that could provide a nice thick edge to the sound (Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, some Mahler). So far, i've found that a lot of my low brass idols: Don Harwood, Warren Deck, Alan Baer, have that loud sound that i'm looking for, and after trying some stainless steel mouthpieces, it's definitely what i'm looking for (especially playing the 1st trombone part on those heavy works). So with that being summed up, I didn't find brass (silver/gold) or copper to provide the core that stainless steel does. So Stainless steel vs titanium, or any other material that i'm missing could provide these characteristics better? Sorry for a wordy, possibly unclear post. I'm not exactly sure what i'm looking for, but I have a general idea.

[mrdeacon]

I think Giddings will get you close to where you're going but more due to their giant backbones and tapers rather than the material. Another thing to note is the density and weight of steel vs brass is different. Two identical weighted mouthpieces in brass and steel will respond differently. It could be something as simple you don't hate brass but you actually want a heavyweight brass mouthpiece.

I found steel to have a ton of core but to be honest, I thought it was possibly brighter sounding than brass. A lot of this does have to do with your gear... on the Conn and Holton style stuff I was playing at the time it definitely wasn't super dark.

I do agree with Bill on ZR. I always describe ZR as being a cross between steel and brass. It has a very similar pallet of sound to steel but it responds very closely to brass. I found the ZR to be quite a bit darker sounding with how I played. Interestingly... I found the Symington 2 in ZR to be significantly darker in ZR than in brass while the Symington 1.5 in ZR was only a little darker in ZR than in brass.

[RustBeltBass]

I am sure working with Giddings you will find a good model, you are in good hands there. I tried steel for a while and for me Parker was more appealing. It sounded great but was not as funky in feeling as the GW pieces.

However, I will not go the steel route again. Maybe I didn’t try it for long enough but something that was definitely a turn off for me was that there was quite a discrepancy between how I thought I sounded and how I really sounded when I listened back to my practice recordings. The difference was bigger than when I did it with brass and that for me was a no-go.

I’m interested in Bill’s ZR because I enjoy his brass 2 so much but probably better to not continue to try more.

[LeTromboniste]

Poor violas

[BrianJohnston]

^ True ^ good thing we're all stuck at home in the US! (forever)

[RustBeltBass]

I think what you can do next is look at the other symphony players currently doing the same thing, using stainless or titanium pieces. AFAIK... I can't think of any. Not saying that should be the final arbiter, but it may help you.

I do not think this is correct, at least not with stainless steel. While certainly more the exception than the norm, there are several full time orchestral trombonists in the US who play stainless steel. I never heard of anyone playing titanium, though.

[Burgerbob]

I think what you can do next is look at the other symphony players currently doing the same thing, using stainless or titanium pieces. AFAIK... I can't think of any. Not saying that should be the final arbiter, but it may help you.

I do not think this is correct, at least not with stainless steel. While certainly more the exception than the norm, there are several full time orchestral trombonists in the US who play stainless steel. I never heard of anyone playing titanium, though.

Who's on stainless right now? Honest question. I don't know anyone outside the tuba or euphonium world.

[RustBeltBass]

Steve Dunkel, bass trombone from Kennedy Center has his own Parker Stainless model.

Second trombone in Jacksonville Symphony plays Parker stainless.

Former bass of San Diego played Stainless for a good part (not everything though on stainless GW.

Edit:
Not a “Symphony” Player but one of the best in the field....bass trombone of President’s Own Marine Band plays GW.

[Burgerbob]

Interesting. I feel like I was slightly aware of the Parker brand, not sure from where though. And I had no idea Michael Priddy used one at times.

I wonder what size the Marine Band player uses.

[djkennedy]

I think
Titanium Zirconium patternweld
Bar stock might yield a very interesting
And beautiful mouthpiece
Also there are many differences in
Titanium as well as stainless alloy
The AMS numbers as specific applications
Have developed wide variations in ductility
Especially titaniums Grades ——////////
Interestingly last night a long conversation
With an associate might find relevance here
A long time friend with a nonCNC lathe
Who grinds the tooling to cut bore materials
For mouthpieces Pix of the cutters
Well look much like the early Bach tooling
At length a discussion of mass in the 5 size
Stumpy’s Jack Teagarden duplicating attempts
Differences in even DougElliot Lexan 102 rims
Precision
So my friend really wants to work with
Mouthpieces threading shank repair
Plating with several golds Etc
And making one off designs
It seems exact duplication is actually impossible

So this post is meant to introduce someone
With the tooling and experience to
Do “normal “ mouthpiece things
That are no longer done by hand

[djkennedy]

Hi guys,

I'm in the market for a new mouthpiece, and am looking for something specifically to handle the heavy duty Russian symphonies (and similar) more than my current set-up. I currently use gold-plated brass (because I like the smooth/loose feeling, but I find my louds & extreme louds loose a bit of core with the brass mouthpieces. I will first explain that I love my brass mouthpieces for certain styles, (Brahms, Wagner) but when i'm looking for that extra core/edge in my sound for the heavy stuff, I was told stainless steel might pack that extra punch that i'm looking for.

I'm currently working with Giddings mouthpieces to find the right size, but i'm wondering if anyone has experimented with the stainless steel vs titanium loud & extreme loud dynamics to be able to explain the sounds/feel & all other comparisons about the two materials.

Thanks :

[ssking2b]

My experience with stainless steel mouthpieces on trombone has not been good. I found that they were excellent for playing loud, but that the center fell apart below mp. This was consistent on bass and tenor mouthpieces. That renders them unusable for me. I also tried titanium mouthpieces on both tenor and bass trombone. Unfortunately the experience was the same, except the titanium pieces lost focus even sooner, around mf. The pieces I had tested were all from GW.

For me, if I can't center playing soft, I don't get the overtone rich sound I want playing loud.

Interestingly, I play a Selmansberger stainless steel tuba mouthpiece (made by Houser Mouthpiece Works). Houser uses the highest grade of surgical stainless steel available - not the type surgical instruments are made of, but the type surgical implants are made of. Houser also makes all the Parker tuba stainless steel mouthpieces, so there might be a difference in how they play. Houser may also make the Parker trombone mouthpieces.

[BrianJohnston]

Thanks for the replies. My bass trombonist in Fort Wayne Phil plays stainless steel sometimes, if it's a heavy piece and needs extra weight and edge, and to my ear it works! I guess this mouthpiece will be more of a one-trick pony to me, but that was more or less the original goal, since I can't seem to satisfy my very loud playing on brass or bronze.

[Klimchak]

Interestingly, I play a Selmansberger stainless steel tuba mouthpiece (made by Houser Mouthpiece Works). Houser uses the highest grade of surgical stainless steel available - not the type surgical instruments are made of, but the type surgical implants are made of. Houser also makes all the Parker tuba stainless steel mouthpieces, so there might be a difference in how they play. Houser may also make the Parker trombone mouthpieces.

I think there is real merit to this idea, or just the fact that the original LOUD mouthpieces (Houser made) were based on traditional designs and not quite as unusual as some of the Giddings mouthpieces. I have been using the old-style LOUD mouthpieces (the ones that look like megatones) on my large horn and recently got a Houser Velocity that I have been using on my 6H and they play more like traditional brass pieces than any other steel or titanium pieces I have tried. I like the feel of steel, but I have never stuck with a Giddings for very long. They (the houser ones) respond very similarly to brass throughout the dynamic spectrum in my experience.

[bassboy]

Wanted to quickly say to OP, if you're dead set on steel and are willing to pay just a little more, Parker may be worth trying as well. Check out their models. FYI Dave Houser makes the full Parker line (you can see his stamp in the pics)
http://www.parkermouthpieces.com/new-products
You can also mix and match some components:
http://www.parkermouthpieces.com/components

[Posaunus]

Probably too small for you, Brian, but there are Loud stainless steel trombone mouthpieces for sale on eBay. The Loud LM52L is just a bit larger than a 6½AL, but can produce a very loud sound. Excellent quality.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Loud-LM52L-Sta ... SwRn9dlVF0

[mrdeacon]

Probably too small for you, Brian, but there are Loud stainless steel trombone mouthpieces for sale on eBay. The Loud LM52L is just a bit larger than a 6½AL, but can produce a very loud sound. Excellent quality.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Loud-LM52L-Sta ... SwRn9dlVF0

Fun fact the Loud Mouthpieces website has been updated again. The manifesto is gone but now there's a advertisement for a book on there. Huh.

[Posaunus]

Fun fact the Loud Mouthpieces website has been updated again.

Fortunately, the eBay reseller seem to not be affiliated with Loud. But his mouthpieces are new and pristine.

And can be played very loud!

[Amconk]

I play a loud LM52L on my shires. My setup is a sterling silver bell, German brass TS, nickel leadpipe and stainless mouthpiece. I don’t know the physics but the combination is perfect for me.