Snake oil instead of good teaching?

[FOSSIL]

This topic has become somewhat toxic. Many people are grail hunting... both wìth equipment and lessons with 'that perfect trombone guru'. The range issue I don't see as a big deal. Everyone is different and some youngsters take a time to develop an upper register. It is what it is. Practise time wins every time.
Don't mock Savio for his translation tool... he speaks better English than any of us speak Norwegian ...and he talks a lot of sense.

Chris

[Bach5G]

Only “somewhat toxic” surely?

In fact, pretty standard social media stuff. If you ask for opinions and/or advice, well you may get more than you bargained for, and not all of it positive. I don’t think anybody was mocking Savio and it is unfortunate if he took it that way.

If I were moderating this forum, I would delete any info or reference that might identify the young trombonist in question. I think this is very important and should be done immediately.

[BrianJohnston]

Only “somewhat toxic” surely?

In fact, pretty standard social media stuff. If you ask for opinions and/or advice, well you may get more than you bargained for, and not all of it positive. I don’t think anybody was mocking Savio and it is unfortunate if he took it that way.

If I were moderating this forum, I would delete any info or reference that might identify the young trombonist in question. I think this is very important and should be done immediately.

Just to clarify some things further. CYSO doesn't post a roster, so you'd have to go to a person in concert to know who is being talked about. There are little to no concerts right now, so pretty sure my student's identity is safe...

[Posaunus]

It seems that some posts have been removed from this thread, so recent comments make little to no sense.

It appears that some apologies are in order.

Please, let's not turn TromboneChat into Facebook!

[harrisonreed]

Savio is a very inspirational person to me. A great player and very giving of his time. One of the greatest things about English is that it is widely understood even if used with minor mistakes -- in Savio's case I almost never see a mistake and his way of writing has a lot of character. Native English speakers should consider themselves lucky that the current lingua franca is English, and we would do well to learn other languages and communicate with others in those languages. It's a humbling experience!!

If the only comment about his English was in reference to the saying he used, I think that was more of a "wow cool saying, what does it mean?" and not anything more than that. I took it as "spinning cloth". But maybe something was deleted that I didn't read?

[RustBeltBass]

Please, let's not turn TromboneChat into Facebook!

this.

I was very skeptical when I first joined this forum. After the loss of the trombone forum and the rise of several Facebook groups, I just didn’t see the point of this forum. But Facebook is Facebook and therefore it is always a good place for some people posting in these groups to promote themselves. Despite many great contributors and the lack of anonymity it regularly seems to be a place of conflict.

I really believe this forum can and should be difficult. This discussion here be some toxic indeed and maybe we should look at it as an example of where badmouthing leads to.

I remember a few discussions from the old forum regarding the lack of professionals posting there (though some did, and some of us do here as well). Douglas Yeo wrote an interesting article about it called “What happened to the internet”. Maybe some people should read it.

This discussion is a prime example of why people are careful and hesitant to post. What is Brian, who subbed with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, left to think of this place now ? What about Savvio ? I think we can and should do better.

I had the chance to perform next to Brian, he is a great player and cared greatly about trombone playing and teaching. I have not seen him teach but based on our playing together, I’d advice critics to tread lightly.

[Basbasun]

Some things I wrote could have been worded another way, or not writen at all.

[aasavickas]

Deleted by user

[BrianJohnston]

I was not ripping on the teacher and did not intend to. I was just surprised by the amount of folks recommending an equipment change. That was the point of posting generalized information here and what the discussion was about.

It very well may be an 8th grader is mismatched to his equipment, it seems awful large for an 8th grader. I presumed the student was in high school based on the ensembles the kid was playing in. Clearly, the students actual teacher has a better idea of what the kid needs rather than random people on the internet.

The fact that I didn't dig up your name(or dirt) and quote you directly and rather summarized your response was an attempt to avoid "ripping" on anyone. I was curious about the state of modern brass teaching based on the responses. Having a general discussion about brass teaching and not naming any names is the opposite of closed minded. It was an example of what appears to be popular advice that I was curious about rather than a comment on your specific teaching with this specific student. No names were used of the teacher or the student on purpose in order to avoid picking on anyone. Until people starting naming the teacher in order to be offended on his behalf, it was just a general example. Then when the OP facebook poster came on here to complain, it was clear who made the initial post. Not from me naming anyone.

The discussion about equipment recommendations vs focusing on teaching embouchure work is interesting and beneficial. If people were less thin skinned and rather than taking things personally could just throw out ideas for discussion, social media sites can actually improve teaching and playing and might help some players learn something new.

You seem to have taken offense. None was intended and I apologize if it came across that way.

I appreciate the apology.

I do see based off the title, and reading through your posts (on this forum) how many people could find what you're saying offensive. "Snake Oil instead of good teaching?" could be implied that everyone who mentioned a mouthpiece change rather than embouchure or new exercises is wrong. I think your intentions "may" have been well, but the way you wrote everything above made for a rather bellicose discussion.

[aasavickas]

Deleted by user

[Bach5G]

I think any identifying information about the young man should be deleted so that even he wouldn’t recognize himself in this thread. It’s a privacy issue. (The young man’s privacy).

[aasavickas]

There is no privacy issue.

No one was identified until adults started identifying themselves which is not an issue since they decided to do it. And the student was never identified. I'm sure the social media lawyers may disagree but unlike them, some of us have actually been to law school and practice law.

[Bach5G]

“I’m sure the social media lawyers may disagree but unlike them, some of us have actually been to law school and practice law.”

I’ve been to law school. I practiced law for 25 years. For the past 12 years I’ve worked in a quasi-judicial admin law position and written about 2500 decisions in which I have been careful not to include unnecessary information that might identify the parties. In this case, I’d be concerned about the privacy of the young man.

But I will defer to your better judgment in this matter.

[Burgerbob]

Again... this is exactly why pros don't stick around tromboneforum and trombonechat.

[BrianJohnston]

Again... this is exactly why pros don't stick around tromboneforum and trombonechat.

Peace.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, this is cringe worthy....

[Wilktone]

Facebook is a horrible medium for an honest exchange of ideas, particularly when participants might happen to have some disagreements. It's hard enough on a platform like this, but even harder when you have to click to "read more" on a comment or "view previous comments" plus comments get posted in different places along the thread regardless of the chronology.

All right. Is there a consensus on what a good embouchure is, how it works, how to achieve it, and how to maintain it?

Among real experts there is some disagreements over the details, but as has been discussed on the TC forum here before, most brass teachers don't know they don't understand. Furthermore, the culture of brass pedagogy tends to discourage any sort of conscious analysis of the embouchure and so the future brass teachers that may not have any major embouchure issues to work out don't learn how to diagnose and troubleshoot embouchure technique in their future students, repeating the cycle of ignorance. When a brass musician figures out something that works well for their own embouchure, often they tout that as correct for everyone.

I think sometimes it's not so much that the teacher is bad, but that there is a mismatch between the learning style and teaching style.

The expert consensus for adapting instructions to fit an individual student's supposed "learning style" leans dramatically towards that approach being largely ineffective. In fact, this has been known for decades, yet this myth in pedagogy still persists today. What we think of as a "style" is actually a "preference" and while it certainly helps a teacher keep students engaged and interested in a topic, studies have consistently shown that learning outcomes that cater to the students' individual "learning preferences" are worse than a more consistent approach. What happens is the student tends to not practice what they don't do well yet and overly practice what they find more fun (e.g., what they already can do well).

We are all visual learners. We are all aural learners. We are all analytical learners and intuitive learners.

I remember a few discussions from the old forum regarding the lack of professionals posting there (though some did, and some of us do here as well). Douglas Yeo wrote an interesting article about it called “What happened to the internet”. Maybe some people should read it.

Folks is folks. If you're not familiar with that saying, it means that people are going to be people, regardless of their demographic. While a lot of contentious internet disagreements can be chalked up to anonymity encouraging people to not play nice with each other, I think if we look at a representative slice of adults who post on forums we'll see that it's not just amateurs causing problems, but professionals too.

On another brass forum one prominent professional player regularly came after things I posted to the point of where I eventually deleted my account. I set up another one after some years and started posting less frequently, but that user again kept going after me very hard. The irony was that one argument was based on how wrong my ideas there were, but everything I originally posted actually affirmed that individual's point - that person just wanted to attack me and what I supposedly represent so badly that the individual didn't even bother to read my post carefully enough to comprehend what I wrote. I never got an apology from that individual or noticed any moderation activity on that thread.

More recently I happened to post a disagreement on a Facebook group devoted to brass teaching and one of the members there (someone with a terminal degree in trombone, a lot of experience, and a well regarded mentor) accused me of waiting in the wings to attack anything that individual wrote. We had, I think, three direct online interactions in over 2 years. When I pointed out that I was simply posting my (self-described expert) opinion on a topic that has been a research interest of mine for over 20 years that individual simply replied, "Don't tell me I'm wrong." Frankly, I feel that individual was wrong. Moderators in that group simply agreed with that individual's advice instead of encouraging an exchange of ideas. I left the Facebook group instead of stirring up more controversy.

I've seen similar examples here on TC from professionals or other adults who I feel should be better at this by now. Of course, I'm not immune to this. I try to be better these days, but I still make communication mistakes. Back in the day, when I still enjoyed a good internet debate, I made a lot more of those. Sorry about that, by the way.

There are ways we can encourage a polite exchange of ideas. For example, it's often best to approach every disagreement from a "principle of charity," where we assume the other person's point of view from the most rational position as possible.

Dave

[Bach5G]

With all due respect to Mr. Stearn, I don’t think this thread has been all that toxic. But I say that being someone who, years ago, on a former trombone forum, got childish satisfaction mocking and goading one of our esteemed professionals who, in my undoubtedly disrespectful view, unfairly got away with attacking everyone he disagreed with, which, frankly, seemed to be nearly everybody, from Jersey girls to the NYPO.

I read Mr. Y’s article about the Internet when it first came out. With all due respect to Mr. Y, was it ever thus? Maybe, for a Garden of Eden moment, before the hordes rushed in and began to do what the hordes always do: bicker, wreck stuff, and leave mounds of trash behind. And, given what we learned about the Internet since then, well, I shake my head. Russian troll bots, Alex Jones, etc. I read an article about a fellow who was making a healthy living just making up outrageous shit and publishing it on the Internet. There was a time when making money spreading lies might have earned you disapproval, not $100,000 (or more) a year.

I think the discourse in this thread and on this forum is generally pretty reasonable although, as I pointed out above, my standards might be pretty low. I feel bad for Mr. J, whose reasonable request for advice in another forum was taken out of context to make a point. To the extent I contributed to that, I am sorry.

[aasavickas]

“I’m sure the social media lawyers may disagree but unlike them, some of us have actually been to law school and practice law.”

I’ve been to law school. I practiced law for 25 years. For the past 12 years I’ve worked in a quasi-judicial admin law position and written about 2500 decisions in which I have been careful not to include unnecessary information that might identify the parties. In this case, I’d be concerned about the privacy of the young man.

But I will defer to your better judgment in this matter.

I think you are wrong on the privacy issue but that is debatable. I think it is clear there is no civil or constitutional privacy issue. No one was identified or directly quoted until an adult decided to complain about it. If anyone created a privacy issue, the liable party would be the complaining teacher. Since you are a lawyer the "social media lawyer" comment was not directed at you because you are not a social media lawyer but a real one. Maybe you misread that. Agree to disagree on the privacy point.



I deleted every post I have except the last one in an abundance of caution to respect an anonymous kids mouthpiece choice. I think it is ridiculous, but I also think open and honest dialogue about anything, including mouthpiece choice, leads adults to have their feeling hurt and they complain. I don't intend to offend anyone but these days, being offended has become a virtue. People will chime in to say they are offended on someone else's behalf and contribute nothing to the discussion other than an attempt to shut it down. Then go tell that person so that they can be offended. It is silly.

I don't think Mr. J's question was taken out of context to make a point. Rather, it was a generalized anonymous example of the fact that so many people presumed there could not be any chop or practice related issue and the only solution was to recommend buying expensive equipment. I even cited the ratio of comments which was (20/1). The clear intent was to hear others thoughts on whether recommending equipment was too prevalent, or not enough, or if fundamentals were being taught correctly. This is not a good topic for an equipment facebook page, so I posted it here. Try to do what makes sense, others presume the worst and it hurts peoples feelings. It was clear in the post and all subsequent posts but you have to take my word for it, as at your request, they have all been deleted to protect a never named anonymous child's mouthpiece choice.


There appears to be nothing fruitful to be gained from this forum with the "I've got hurt feelings" bullies running around. I try to do my best to be polite and respectful with postings but no effort is good enough.

No jokes, no joy, no discussion, no disagreement.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Bach5G]

“I think it is clear there is no civil or constitutional privacy issue.”

I expect you’re 100% correct about this.

I’m not debating fine points of constitutional law, but rather, I am pointing out that a 14-year old has been unfairly and without his permission dragged into this discussion. The kid is not anonymous: we know where he lives, the orchestra he plays in, and the chair he occupies.

[aasavickas]

“I think it is clear there is no civil or constitutional privacy issue.”

I expect you’re 100% correct about this.

I’m not debating fine points of constitutional law, but rather, I am pointing out that a 14-year old has been unfairly and without his permission dragged into this discussion. The kid is not anonymous: we know where he lives, the orchestra he plays in, and the chair he occupies.

A moral or ethical argument makes some sense to me. Which is why I literally deleted everything I wrote other. Seems a bit silly but probably best to err on the side of caution even if his teacher did not. Still don't see the issue morally that people might know the kids teacher wants him to switch mouthpieces but who knows.

His teacher is the one who brought up the student and shared information on facebook. His teacher also decided to come over to this forum and complain that he was offended so that everyone knew which specific Facebook post I referenced. I carefully left out all the details on purpose and avoided quoting directly. I can't help if opinionated thin skinned people share info on their students. I did everything I could to ensure it was a general discussion about trombone related stuff on a trombone forum. I didn't mention any details. The hurt feeling sluths tied it all together and made it known.

People who can't handle polite disagreement or discussion should not post things online.

Seems obvious but maybe not.

[Bach5G]

I’m not pointing fingers, I’m just saying any info that could potentially identify the student should be deleted.

[RustBeltBass]

A moral or ethical argument makes some sense to me. Which is why I literally deleted everything I wrote other. Seems a bit silly but probably best to err on the side of caution even if his teacher did not. Still don't see the issue morally that people might know the kids teacher wants him to switch mouthpieces but who knows.

His teacher is the one who brought up the student and shared information on facebook. His teacher also decided to come over to this forum and complain that he was offended so that everyone knew which specific Facebook post I referenced. I carefully left out all the details on purpose and avoided quoting directly. I can't help if opinionated thin skinned people share info on their students. I did everything I could to ensure it was a general discussion about trombone related stuff on a trombone forum. I didn't mention any details. The hurt feeling sluths tied it all together and made it known.

People who can't handle polite disagreement or discussion should not post things online.

Seems obvious but maybe not.

So what does that leave the rest of us to think of the “apology” you issued ? #sincere

This discussion has become embarrassing. Moderators should do the one and only right thing there is left to do here.

[paulyg]

One of the most important skills that learning trombone has taught me is how to separate good advice from BS.

There are kernels of great advice everywhere online. Here, facebook, reddit... some really amazing players and teachers type among us, and if you know what to look for, it's like a free masterclass.

But you definitely have to know what to look for. For instance, this thread contains little more than the diarrheal spoutings of a curmudgeon, raving about how "thin skinned" everyone else is.

Let's see your resume, dude. If you're gonna spackle this board with your BS, at least do us the courtesy of telling us what it was before you digested it.

[Bach5G]

Let’s turn the temperature down a bit shall we?

We’ve had a good, uh, robust discussion. No need to leave bruises.

[BrianJohnston]

“I think it is clear there is no civil or constitutional privacy issue.”

I expect you’re 100% correct about this.

I’m not debating fine points of constitutional law, but rather, I am pointing out that a 14-year old has been unfairly and without his permission dragged into this discussion. The kid is not anonymous: we know where he lives, the orchestra he plays in, and the chair he occupies.

A moral or ethical argument makes some sense to me. Which is why I literally deleted everything I wrote other. Seems a bit silly but probably best to err on the side of caution even if his teacher did not. Still don't see the issue morally that people might know the kids teacher wants him to switch mouthpieces but who knows.

His teacher is the one who brought up the student and shared information on facebook. His teacher also decided to come over to this forum and complain that he was offended so that everyone knew which specific Facebook post I referenced. I carefully left out all the details on purpose and avoided quoting directly. I can't help if opinionated thin skinned people share info on their students. I did everything I could to ensure it was a general discussion about trombone related stuff on a trombone forum. I didn't mention any details. The hurt feeling sluths tied it all together and made it known.

People who can't handle polite disagreement or discussion should not post things online.

Seems obvious but maybe not.

You're an ass bro. Your post(s) we're thoughtless, and i'm glad you deleted them. Why don't you just cut the crap now before you keep digging yourself deeper in a hole.

[BrianJohnston]

Feel free to delete what I just wrote above... although I don't regret writing it. Deleting this whole forum would be ideal.

[FOSSIL]

Let me talk about the original issue..... it is not surprising that a given student finds a particular thing, such as high register challenging....what is surprising is that so many players are able to jump through a series of hoops called the symphonic repertoire fairly easily. Everyone is unique, unless you are into categorization. Some people may never play Bolero however 'correct' their physical approach. Others get there in spite of less than ideal physical approaches.
Mindset is the new teaching kid on the block...mental approach is perhaps THE fundamental to success. Over decades it has, along with hard work, been central to the achievements of my students.
A few people won't like that, but I don't care...and I won't enter a spat about it. Like it or hate it...up to you.

Chris

[harrisonreed]

Chris hits the nail on the head yet again, with the finesse of a cross peen pin hammer.

Others are still squabbling about "he said she said".

Wow, this thread has given me three names of people to block, who I never have to bother reading their drivel ever again.

[Savio]

This topic has become somewhat toxic. Many people are grail hunting... both wìth equipment and lessons with 'that perfect trombone guru'. The range issue I don't see as a big deal. Everyone is different and some youngsters take a time to develop an upper register. It is what it is. Practise time wins every time.
Don't mock Savio for his translation tool... he speaks better English than any of us speak Norwegian ...and he talks a lot of sense.

Chris

Thanks a lot! Chris I dont talk lot of sense. But you do, same as Svenne!

Leif

[BGuttman]

Leif, I usually understand what you are saying (except for that transliterated adage ). I appreciate your contributions. Please stay around.

[harrisonreed]

Yes, Leif, you are awesome!

[sungfw]

Leif, I usually understand what you are saying (except for that transliterated adage ).

Really? Seems pretty obvious that it's an analogue to "Necessity is the mother of invention," no?

AOBTW … it's translated, not transliterated.

Translate: to turn from one language into another or from a foreign language into one's own; To render in another language; to turn into one's own or another language

Transliterate: to change (letters, words, etc.) into corresponding characters of another alphabet or language: to transliterate the Greek Χ as ch.; : to represent or spell in the characters of another alphabet; a type of conversion of a text from one script to another that involves swapping letters (thus trans- + liter-) in predictable ways, such as Greek ⟨α⟩ → ⟨a⟩, Cyrillic ⟨д⟩ → ⟨d⟩, Greek ⟨χ⟩ → the digraph ⟨ch⟩, Armenian ⟨ն⟩ → ⟨n⟩ or Latin ⟨æ⟩ → ⟨ae⟩.

[Savio]

Yes, Leif, you are awesome!

Leif, I usually understand what you are saying (except for that transliterated adage ). I appreciate your contributions. Please stay around.

Thanks a lot!! Sometimes I don't understand what I write my self! Google translate? Better use my own English language.....

On the topic, I recommend both snake oil and good teaching.

Everything can help.

Leif the language expert (soon)

[Basbasun]

Thanks a lot!! Sometimes I don't understand what I write my self! Google translate? Better use my own English language.....

On the topic, I recommend both snake oil and good teaching.

Everything can help.

Leif the language expert (soon)

Leif! I love you!

[Wilktone]

Let me talk about the original issue..... it is not surprising that a given student finds a particular thing, such as high register challenging....what is surprising is that so many players are able to jump through a series of hoops called the symphonic repertoire fairly easily. Everyone is unique, unless you are into categorization. Some people may never play Bolero however 'correct' their physical approach. Others get there in spite of less than ideal physical approaches.
Mindset is the new teaching kid on the block...mental approach is perhaps THE fundamental to success. Over decades it has, along with hard work, been central to the achievements of my students.
A few people won't like that, but I don't care...and I won't enter a spat about it. Like it or hate it...up to you.

Chris

Chris, I know you don't want to get into a spat, but how about a discussion?

Where, in your opinion, should the mental focus be? The tone? The musical expression? The foot tapping? The feeling of air rushing past the lips? What you're planning on cooking for dinner? What is the correct mindset that breaks past playing difficulties?

A mental approach alone certainly can work for an awful lot of players, particularly if they've already managed to get through some competitive audition processes. But sometimes I think getting a student on a different sized mouthpiece can help break past some barriers too. Same goes for a little attention on a "physical approach."

In reality, I don't think anyone seriously advocates for such a black and white approach that musicians should take a purely mental approach, or purely physical approach, or only worry about what equipment they're playing. They are all pieces to a larger puzzle and are context dependent. It might be helpful to divide those approaches into categories, but it's not really worth prioritizing them outside of a specific context that's relevant to the specific student.

Here in the U.S., mainstream brass pedagogy has been focused on something akin to your ideas on a mental approach for over 50 years. I see this approach more as the old guard, not the new kid. A blended approach, which strives to take into account the context of each individual student or musician's needs and goals, seems to have more current support to me.

... I’m just saying any info that could potentially identify the student should be deleted.

I don't know enough about the original context of this to comment, but the El Sistema program I work for asks our parents/guardians to sign a release form giving us permission to use the student's name, image, or video for promotional materials. The local youth orchestra we have a working relationship with I believe does similarly. From a legal, ethical, and practical matter I'm not certain I see too much difference between, "My student, who plays with the X Youth Orchestra, might do better with a different mouthpiece" compared with "Congratulations to my student, X, who won the concerto competition with the X Youth Orchestra."

Dave

[timothy42b]

I was curious so I googled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

It's not so clear if snake oil ever came from snakes. It seems unlikely in the US, but in 18th century UK there are references to "viper oil" for curing rheumatism, etc. (nonspecific illnesses that wax and wane naturally so are well treated with ineffective medicines)