Going from 5G to Bach 5

[Hobart]

Alright so, I currently play on a large shank Bach 5G for most of my playing. I noticed that they make pieces with the same rim, the 5 and the 6, but with shallower cups. A lot of people play on the 5G so I figured this would be good to ask.
Would anybody who plays on a 5G regularly recommend getting a 5 or a 6 for jazz and smaller horns, or are these mouthpieces not as standard as their larger cousin for a reason? Right now I use either a Conn 2 or 3 for jazz, and I'm wondering if a 5 would be a good idea when I get the money.

[Posaunus]

Is there something wrong with your Conn mouthpieces that you want to "fix?"

The small-shank Bach 5 is not widely used for (tenor trombone) jazz, probably for good reason. It has a much larger cup than the Conn 3 or Conn 3 (both pretty nice pieces for the right trombone). May facilitate low range at the expense of high range. But many players on this forum seem to like playing on similar cup diameters for all their trombones. YMMV.

[Burgerbob]

I have the whole collection of Bach no letters (well, the cool ones anyway). 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3.

I need to play them again, now that my playing has changed, but I found them to be... ok. Older ones have shallower cups than new models, so I wouldn't recommend a new one just based on that.

[Kevbach33]

I just got a (newer) Bach 5 for my 6H a couple months back. It's an intriguing piece, a bit wider but also a bit shallower than a 6 ½ A(L).

FOR ME, I found my flexibility on the 5 to have improved considerably at a bit of expense to my high range (more practice, I know), coming from a 7C. Maybe that's a size my embouchure likes? Anyway, importantly the partials still line up well. It does sound bigger than the 7C setup did.

FWIW I play third in a big band (in a state where we still haven't started rehearsing again... Miss it so much!). I'll keep the 7C for more specialized roles.

I suppose for the right person a larger mouthpiece like a 5 could be beneficial. Ymmv and such.

What, if anything, about the Conn 2 and 3 is holding you back that extra practice or a lesson (or 2) can't fix?

[dukesboneman]

I have a friend in Buffalo, NY that plays a 5 on his 6H and has for years. He sounds great. Try it, If it works for you, go for it. Steve Turre plays a mouthpiece with a (in his words) a 5-ish rim

[BGuttman]

Isn't there now a small shank version of the 5G? If there was I wouldn't recommend it; probably too large for a small bore horn. Maybe the 5GS (5 size rim with a 6.5 size cup).

I also ask if there is a problem with the Conn 3. If it's working for you, stay with it.

[CalgaryTbone]

Back in the day, when Bach 5G's were "the" standard for .547 horns, there were a lot of players that used a 5 on their small bore horns. There might be other mouthpieces that are "better" for the small horn, but a 5 will work reasonably well, and will be a comfortable switch. How well it works will be, of course, an individual thing, but the cup/throat on those is much more suited to small bores than a 5G or 5GS.

I have a Bach 4 sitting around here as a possible choice for my smaller horns (haven't had a reason to pull those horns out since March, so haven't had a chance to use it yet).

Before anyone calls me out, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a Bach 5G - great mouthpieces. There are just a lot more choices out there now, than there were 40 years ago, and a lot more variety in what players use on .547's these days.

Jim Scott

[ArbanRubank]

I play a 5G in my Yamaha 354 b/c I usually want a larger, more mellow sound. However, when I want a more "razz-a-ma-tazz" (edgy) type of sound, I use a straight 5. I can go smaller, but I find that when I do, I tend to sound a little too "trumpety" for my liking. In either case, since I also play bass trombone - sometimes up in the same range as my tenors, the 5 & 5G both feel kinda small. I think it's pretty much what you want - to get the results you are after and also what you get used to using.

[Bach5G]

I tried a 5 in my .525 and .509 tenors but it never really took off with me. No particular reason. What did click was a Schilke 51 which I liked very much ( maybe a Turre or Slide sound?). But now, it seems a little small after practicing bass for the past 6 months.

[Hobart]

To be honest, I don't think there's much wrong with the mouthpieces I currently play on, I'm just wondering if I could do better. They work well, but I feel like the Conn 3 can be a little big sometimes for smaller horns, and the Conn 2 is kind of small, and I'm not sure if something in between these two sizes could do me any better.

[bimmerman]

A DE setup is the easy button, but a Schilke 51B or a Bach 4C might be a good option. If I am remembering correctly, the 4C is in between 4 and 5 rim diameters. Or a 5GS.

[Jimkinkella]

I play a 5G and other variants on .547, but usually play on small bores.
I like to stay on similar rims, so here's my take on what I use on the smaller horns:
I do use the small bore 5g occasionally on a .525 when I want to sound like a "small big horn"
I play a Hammond 12M quite a bit, it's like a much, much, better 5GS.
Most of the time I play a Doug Elliott XT101/C+/D4 on a .508, sometimes .500
I'll also use a Doug Elliott LT101/C/C3, usully on a .500 on lighter material
Every now and then I'll pull out an old 5 rim I had cut for a 6-1/2AL cup, which was then bored out - super comfortable for sitting 3rd in a big band.
I have a few others I use now and then, also moving to some of Doug's other cups and shanks, but those are my usuals.
Griego 5M, Remington, Ferguson 1S are some kinda sorta but not really comparable to a 5G/5 and pretty good pieces.
The 5 (no letter) is just ok, never really felt interesting to me, I did like the older ones better than the newer ones.
I never liked a 5GS. small or large bore.
The Brassark Clarke is really interesting, and sounds great, but I can't seem to convince myself to like playing it just yet. It's almost a half step between the 6-1/2 and a 5 rim with a completely different cup.
I've played a 51, sounds good and plays well I just don't like the rim.
I also have an old Bach 3 that I can use on a smaller horn if I want to feel like I'm playing bigger but still sound kinda small (think small church gig) but haven't played that one out in years.

Honestly if you're near a decent shop (Dillon's / Horn Guys / etc.) go try as many different things as you can.
If you're not, or even if you are, Doug's stuff is worth the money and I believe that he still has a pretty generous return policy, you can also always find a bunch of his stuff here on the forum, a few of us trade around parts quite a bit.
I hear mouthpiece express has a good return policy as well, but never tried them.

[Posaunus]

... I feel like the Conn 3 can be a little big sometimes for smaller horns, and the Conn 2 is kind of small, and I'm not sure if something in between these two sizes could do me any better.

? ? ?

The Conn 3 cup is actually SMALLER than the Bach 5, though it has a much larger throat. It sort of resembles a Bach 6½AM, with a more V-shaped cup. My Conn 2 has a little smaller, but more bowl-shaped cup, with the same large throat as my Conn 3.

Here's what I measure:
Conn 2: ...... Cup I.D. ~25.10mm; Throat 6.63mm (measured)
Conn 3: ...... Cup I.D. ~25.35mm; Throat 6.63mm (measured)
Bach 6½AM: . Cup I.D. ~25.40mm; Throat 6.53mm (spec)
Bach 6½AL: . Cup I.D. ~25.40mm; Throat 6.63mm (spec)
Bach 5: ...... Cup I.D. ~25.50mm; Throat 5.85mm (spec)
Bach 5GS: ... Cup I.D. ~25.50mm; Throat 6.63mm (spec)

BUT – none of this measurement stuff really matters much – it's really how the mouthpiece works on your face, how it feels, and how it plays. Getting used to a new mouthpiece takes a while - you may like it at first and hate it later (or vice versa).

There are more small-shank mouthpieces out there than you will ever have a chance to try. (And, as you can see, an equal number of opinions from fellow TromboneChatters.) Lots of them are wonderful, in their own way. The Conn 3 is actually a pretty nice piece for a 0.500" - 0.508" bore tenor, so feel free to try an alternate or two, but don't be in a hurry to abandon the Conns.

Or contact Doug Elliott and have him custom-fit a mouthpiece system for you.

[Kingfan]

When I started playing my 2B and 3B as my primary horns instead of my .547 horn with a 5G people were telling me to go with smaller pieces like a 7C, 12C, etc. They seemed to choke the horn down for me. I did a Skype with Doug Elloitt and he recommend his LT101/LTD/D3 combo. Really opened up my range, tone, and endurance. Just felt "right". My backup is a Bach 5, which is close in size. If you want to try a generic no-name 5BS, I have a gold plated one I would sell you for $20 shipped.

[Elow]

I like big rims but i have a Denis wick heritage 10CS that feels super comfortable for me and that’s all i will use on a small bore. I used to use a 5G on my .525 but now its too small.

[CalgaryTbone]

The Bach 5 is smaller in the cup/throat than than the 5GS - the 4C would be slightly bigger in the rim area, but with a shallower cup than the 5.

It all depends on what the OP is looking for - if he wants the same rim, a 5 is worth trying. If he wants to invest some $$, a Doug Elliott setup is a good way to go. If changing rims isn't a problem, then find something that works on the small horn and is comfortable.

I like to keep the same rim on my various mouthpieces, but some people don't have an issue with that. The other consideration is how much time is spent on the small horn, and how serious is the player towards that horn. If it's just something that is occasionally played, then go with comfort and lower cost, and if it becomes more serious and more of a steady thing, then spend some $$. Also, after sticking with it for a while, they would have a better idea of what to look for in any new equipment.

Jim Scott

[btone]

Just to comment on a couple of the mouthpieces that have been discussed for small bore- I have never found a use for the small shank Schilke 51 in a small bore; in my opinion, it is borderline too large in cup volume for a medium bore in many cases. The Bach 5GS was mentioned also. The 5GS small shank can work extremely well in a medium bore. Considering how many people have played the 6 1/2 AL in small bores I don't think there's any reason the 5GS should be summarily ruled out for anything small shank with .500 bore and above. If it is too large for a particular instrument the sound will be dullish or the upper partials will be flat.

[Burgerbob]

I find the 5GS to be a bit hoggy on a .508. It works to a point, but really only if you're playing salsa loud. I used one for a while in my 3B and ran into some issues after a while.

[Posaunus]

My sort-of go-to large shank piece has for years been a Schilke 51. I recently tried a Schilke 51 SS in a medium-bore (0.522" Conn 79H) with low expectations (thought it might be too big), and was pleasantly surprised. I'll give it a more thorough workout, but so far, so good!

[CalgaryTbone]

I'll try this again - the "chat" ate my response.

I found that the small Schilke 51 worked well in a Yamaha 321 Euphonium when I was playing the large version on my .547 horn, and I also was surprised that it played pretty well in a Conn 75H (a 1980's replacement of the 78) that I tried one time. I wouldn't use it on anything smaller, from my experience.

I've never been able to get comfortable with the sound of a 5GS for me. They came out while I was a student. I picked up a large shank version as a potential cheater for high stuff (hardly anyone played alto back then). It ended up in a box on a shelf within a week. I am a little biased against them based on my experience - others will certainly have a different take on them. Back then, Bach made a 5G (large shank) and a 5 (small shank), and later the 5GS (large shank) appeared as another choice. Few people played alto, so some people used the 5 with a small bore horn for Beethoven, etc. Bach later added small shank versions of the 5G and 5GS, but I would say that was in the early 80's? Schilke was offering small/large versions earlier than Bach was.

Getting back to advice - it all depends first of all on the comfort that the OP has with changing rims, etc. I know that I prefer the same rim on my mouthpieces (mostly) so that's a priority for me. Then, how much playing will you be doing on the smaller horn, and is it for paying gigs? If it's just for fun, or trying something new, then I'd suggest comfort first so switching is easy, and play - enjoy! If you're getting more serious with it, and you're not happy with the original choice, then try something different. At that point, you'll likely have a better idea of what you want, and probably will have tried some more choices. If you're comfortable with changing rims, then 11C's are very popular small bore mouthpieces, so maybe try that. In my experience, while rim size has some effect, lots of people are successful at playing smaller horns on large rims, but less do well with large cups/throats. Those tend to get dull and play flat, especially up high.
My experiences with a 5 were mostly positive, but the 5G was part of my "money-making" set-up, and I wasn't using the small horn to tour with Basie. As circumstances change, then equipment might as well.

Jim Scott

[Trav1s]

Try out what you can and play what works...

With that being said, the 5G/5GS never worked for me. I played a Schilke 51B on .522" and .547" horns since the late 80s and it never worked on the .500" and smaller horns - sounded too tubby. Tried a few things and found that the Bach 6.5AM, Faxx 6.5AL, Bach 7C, and Faxx 7C were the best choices for me with the 7Cs working better on the smaller horns and the 6.5s working well on the .500" horns. My Conn 32H is an entirely different story...

At ITF 2018 I was graced with the opportunity to visit with Doug Elliott and purchased at combo for .522" horns (I spend most of my time on my 79H with Rotax). LT102/D/D4 I heard amazing things about Doug's modular system but had no idea it would be such the revelation for me.

After picking up a 24H Artist (and 32H) Doug worked with me to find a combo for it. LT101 or 102 rim, C+ cup, and D2 shank are the winners. The 102 is more comfortable and would be my primary choice if I had more practice time to build endurance while the 101 helps with the upper endurance but is not quite as comfortable.