Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

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AEK
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Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by AEK »

Hi,
I used to play with a Bach 11C which I still love. Although, I like the rim feel of 11C, I've been searching for something has just a bit larger rim, open blowing piece soundwise in the last couple of years. After I played, blind tested, tried out couple of others including Monette TS11 (the regular one not the PRANA), Laskey 50C, Schilke 47C4, King 11M, Greg Black 7C, Rath S11 M.N., King Jiggs Whigham 1A, Bach 6 3/4C, I settled with a Doug Elliot ST99 for some time.

I would like to hear your experiences and thoughts about what those alternatives of the Bach 11C and 6 3/4C are?
Ali Emre Kayhan
TRT Big Band
Rath R10
Doug Elliot STG99CC2
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Fidbone
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Fidbone »

Greg Black 9C
He's also done a reproduction of a mpc he made for JJ that looks interesting!
Also the Reeves 11C is nice.
TromboneMonkey
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by TromboneMonkey »

Hi AEK,

I've been through this marry-go-round for a long time, and went through most of the mouthpieces you mentioned.

Ultimately, I found a Mount Vernon 7c that was much larger than most other 7cs, bigger in the rim even than some 6 3/4cs I've played. Because it's a 7c, it is on the "brighter" side compared to 11cs, but works very well for me. You can also have an 11c threaded for a larger rim; this seems to work for a lot of players.

Good luck, this is tough.
Fidbone
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Fidbone »

:idk:
Last edited by Fidbone on Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rusty
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Rusty »

Another vote for the Bob Reeves 11c, wider rim and very even across the whole range with a great sound. The other one worth looking at is the Yamaha Nils Langdren. 6 3/4c size but with a very open throat and backbore. You may not get on with the rim though, I found it quite sharp. If you can find one, a Mount Vernon 6.5a is like a big MV11c, you won’t be disappointed!
baileyman
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by baileyman »

You want "open" so you can blow louder 3rd partial and below?
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DaveAshley
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by DaveAshley »

6 3/4C alternatives not mentioned yet:

Shires 11C (much more like a 6 3/4C than an 11C). I think the throat is a *bit* tight, but I still like it a lot. Seek out one that says "Vintage 11C" instead of "USA" - I like the older ones better.

AR Resonance 25.1 (what I've been playing for 3 years now, though I had him make me a custom rim). I think the lightweight blank is perfect.

and don't forget the Conn 3! They can vary a little bit in size, but most are about a 6 3/4 size with a more V-shaped cup.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Doug Elliott »

I make several things in that size range. Suggest MT 99 rim, C+ cup, and D2 or D3 shank depending on the horn..
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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AEK
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by AEK »

Hey fellas,
I appreciated all your answers and suggestions.
As I mentioned , I love the rim shape / feel, weight and cup of the Bach 11C. If only I could have that same rim in 25.00mm with an open throat as my DE piece.
Yes, the Bach throat is a little tight for me because of that I said I needed a more open piece.
The Doug Elliot ST99 C C2 has a nice open throat (0.242'') enough for me and the piece holds-up the sound in the loud big band while I play solo. It may be just a wee bit deeper cup like between the C and the C+. Cause the C+ feels too deep for me.

Thank you all and I will keep your advices. Cheers.
Ali Emre Kayhan
TRT Big Band
Rath R10
Doug Elliot STG99CC2
Sshhmute artist
Fidbone
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Fidbone »

AEK wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:48 pm Hey fellas,
I appreciated all your answers and suggestions.
As I mentioned , I love the rim shape / feel, weight and cup of the Bach 11C. If only I could have that same rim in 25.00mm with an open throat as my DE piece.
Gregs 9C fits exactly what you describe........ :good:
FOSSIL
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by FOSSIL »

Some may say that the best alternative to a Bach 11c is another Bach 11c. They vary that much !! NY and MV examples are particularly variable...though that can be because of being modified in the past. I've got a mere 5 of them and they are all different.

Chris
Posaunus
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Posaunus »

AEK wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:48 pm Hey fellas,
I appreciated all your answers and suggestions.
As I mentioned , I love the rim shape / feel, weight and cup of the Bach 11C. If only I could have that same rim in 25.00mm with an open throat as my DE piece.
Yes, the Bach throat is a little tight for me because of that I said I needed a more open piece.
The Doug Elliot ST99 C C2 has a nice open throat (0.242'') enough for me and the piece holds-up the sound in the loud big band while I play solo. It may be just a wee bit deeper cup like between the C and the C+. Cause the C+ feels too deep for me.

Thank you all and I will keep your advices. Cheers.
A few other options in that size range with larger throats:

• Josef Klier (in Germany) makes very nice mouthpieces.
The Klier Exclusive 9D has a 25.00mm cup I.D. and a 6.0mm (0.236") throat

• For a "jazzier" mouthpiece with a very comfortable rim, suitable for big band:
Marcinkiewicz ET4 "Lloyd Ulyate" - 25.12mm cup I.D., 6.25mm (0.246") throat

• Also "jazzy":
Yamaha "Nils Landgren" - 25.11mm cup I.D., 6.25mm (0.246") throat

Of course none of these pieces will have the shape and feel of a Bach piece. I'd bet on Doug Elliott to provide something close to what you want.
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AEK
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by AEK »

I used to use Josef Klier Exclusive 6C with a #2 rim when I was playing classical at school and very happy with it. Very good quality pieces. 9D is definately worth to try.
Ali Emre Kayhan
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Pre59
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Pre59 »

I have a Josef Klier 8E and a 8D, a 7E and 7D, and a K+H Bart v Lier 8E which I assume is a modified JK 8E judging by the blank. The JK 8E is my regular for small group jazz, and I'd be happy to play a lower part in a big band with the 8D, should that ever happen again..

The 7's are too wide for me now, and they would be better suited to a larger horn maybe.
Rusty
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Rusty »

AEK wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:25 am I used to use Josef Klier Exclusive 6C with a #2 rim when I was playing classical at school and very happy with it. Very good quality pieces. 9D is definately worth to try.
Have you had any success in finding something you’re happy with? I have quite a few mouthpieces in this size range and have a few favourites that I like to come back to for various reasons. Lately I’ve been comparing my MV 11c with the Reeves 11c, and experimenting with some MT and ST setups with the D2 shank (in a .508 horn).
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Vegasbound »

Doug Elliott
Rusty
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Rusty »

:???: Just saying “Doug Elliot” isn’t really helpful, if you’d read the thread you’d see that various DE setups have been talked about already. I’m interested to see how the OP has got on since this thread started.

For me, I’ve tried a lot of different combos in the DE ST and MT series and while comfortable, I still haven’t been able to match the sound character of the Reeves 11c and MV 11c. I think it’s something to do with the throat or shank, even though I play a .508 and would be recommended to play the 3 shank, the 2 shank was getting closer to the right feel. The idea of play DE rims across small and large tenors and bass appeals to me, but sound has to come first.
Fidbone wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:02 am
AEK wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:48 pm Hey fellas,
I appreciated all your answers and suggestions.
As I mentioned , I love the rim shape / feel, weight and cup of the Bach 11C. If only I could have that same rim in 25.00mm with an open throat as my DE piece.
Gregs 9C fits exactly what you describe........ :good:
Any updates on how you’re getting on with the Greg Black 9c?
Jimkinkella
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Jimkinkella »

FOSSIL wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:30 am Some may say that the best alternative to a Bach 11c is another Bach 11c. They vary that much !! NY and MV examples are particularly variable...though that can be because of being modified in the past. I've got a mere 5 of them and they are all different.

Chris
Yup

You could also find a rim that you like and have it cut for Doug Elliott threads, if that's the limiting factor.
I've got a few mix and match rims and lower parts from back in the day, still use some of them at times.

Another option, find a stock 11c that's comfortable and bore out the throat.
I've done that a few times, too....
Fidbone
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by Fidbone »

Rusty wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:50 pm :???:
Fidbone wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:02 am

Gregs 9C fits exactly what you describe........ :good:
Any updates on how you’re getting on with the Greg Black 9c?

Great piece, wonderful sound, unfortunately I didn't get along with the rim :frown:
Sold it to Peter Dahlgren in Sweden :cool:
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AEK
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Re: Best Alternatives of Bach 11C and Bach 6 3/4C

Post by AEK »

Rusty wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:20 am
AEK wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:25 am I used to use Josef Klier Exclusive 6C with a #2 rim when I was playing classical at school and very happy with it. Very good quality pieces. 9D is definately worth to try.
Have you had any success in finding something you’re happy with? I have quite a few mouthpieces in this size range and have a few favourites that I like to come back to for various reasons. Lately I’ve been comparing my MV 11c with the Reeves 11c, and experimenting with some MT and ST setups with the D2 shank (in a .508 horn).
I am so sorry that I couldn't be able to reply for so long.
I couldn't have had a chance to try out any other alternative pieces since then unfortunately and still playing with the DE ST99C2. Although there isn't much difference in the sound, I realised that the Bach 11C projects a little quicker than the DE mpc. I put both pieces on the table next to each other and see their height are the same but looks like the DE backbore is slightly longer inside or whatever I don't know. But, because the rim size and the throat are a bit larger the DE has a little broad sound and a little less focus than the Bach 11C to me.
Years ago, I also played with a Greg Black 7C. It's a nice-sounding piece but I couldn't get on with the rim shape just like Chris. And the DE ST99C2 sounds way better to me than the GBlack 7C.
There are a few pieces I would like to try out including Schilke 47, 47B, Marcinkiewicz ET3 C Loper, Denis Wick 10CS and maybe recent Monette TS11 models. If any of you has some experience with those pieces please share. Cheers.
Ali Emre Kayhan
TRT Big Band
Rath R10
Doug Elliot STG99CC2
Sshhmute artist
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