How long do you give a mouthpiece?

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Bach5G
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How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by Bach5G »

I’ve been trying out a Bach 2G for the last little while. I’m not sold on it. How long do you think one should give a mouthpiece before deciding it’s not going to work?
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BGuttman
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by BGuttman »

Really depends on what isn't working. Some I discard immediately because they are uncomfortable (rim size or rim shape). Some take longer because they have the wrong depth or aperture. Some I keep because they suddenly work because of a change in my playing.

An example if the last is my set of tuba mouthpieces. I have a Mirafone F with a Mirafone H2, Schilke 66, and Perantucci S25. The Mirafone mouthpiece works best if I haven't been playing tuba for a while. As my embouchure returns I move to the Schilke. When I'm playing a lot of tuba the Perantucci works best.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott »

The way I look at it, a good change will be obvious pretty much immediately and there will not be any "honeymoon" end.

A lateral change, from something that's not right to something else that's not right, will sometimes work well for a period of time and then the honeymoon ends.

A move to something that's too big might feel good for some positive changes, but will be too much work to play, so endurance and sound clarity will suffer.

A move to something that's too small might give immediate clarity and projection, but will result in a lot of chipped notes and splatty articulation.

There are lots of details that I use when recommending a mouthpiece, mostly involving facial structure and embouchure type, but also history of playing and strong & weak points.
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ithinknot
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by ithinknot »

Everything above. If it's uncomfortable, it's uncomfortable.

Beyond that, it depends on the type and degree of 'not sold'.

If I like the sound and response, but it doesn't feel like I'm working efficiently with it, then I'll try for long enough to see what I can modify in my approach and whether the end result is worth it. If it's an throat/backbore/air management thing, then either way it might still be worth getting to understand the mouthpiece for a while - it might be an ideal fit with some other instrument some day.

If it's comfortable but the sound just isn't there, probably not long. I don't expect equipment to compensate for my flaws, but there are enough neutral options that I don't persist with anything that seems actively unhelpful.

Also, there's a big procedural difference between "I haven't yet found a mouthpiece I like with this horn - can I get this one to work?" versus "I'm basically happy with x, but I'm going to try y for some musical/stylistic reason, or just for fun".
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by imsevimse »

Doug Elliott wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:19 pm The way I look at it, a good change will be obvious pretty much immediately and there will not be any "honeymoon" end.

A lateral change, from something that's not right to something else that's not right, will sometimes work well for a period of time and then the honeymoon ends.

A move to something that's too big might feel good for some positive changes, but will be too much work to play, so endurance and sound clarity will suffer.

A move to something that's too small might give immediate clarity and projection, but will result in a lot of chipped notes and splatty articulation.

There are lots of details that I use when recommending a mouthpiece, mostly involving facial structure and embouchure type, but also history of playing and strong & weak points.
I agree with this Doug says. At the moment I have 85 mouthpieces on loan to see if I could make use of any. After a first test I found 18 mouthpieces that was good for me. Different in size, but all good. I have then spent more time on them and also tested them on some more challenging stuff. After this I'm down to three. I might buy all three because all work for me.

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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by FOSSIL »

Bach5G wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:17 pm I’ve been trying out a Bach 2G for the last little while. I’m not sold on it. How long do you think one should give a mouthpiece before deciding it’s not going to work?
Well, I gave a 2G six months at home and felt very positive about it, then went into the orchestra and it didn't last a week.... If you are not sold on it, move on. For some great players a 2G is the answer, but it's not for everyone.

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harrisonreed
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by harrisonreed »

Once you know what rim size and shape works for you, you should eliminate that variable as soon as you can. Change the rim size, and you change the cup width, possibly depth/volume, shape. Your list should be a lot shorter of what you can try if you do that.

For example, I know that I won't be able to play comfortably on a cup width outside of 1.05-1.07", and I prefer round or narrow rims. I've tired moving outside of that range. Any bigger and I can barely make a sound, and any smaller and I have to change where my teeth go in relation to the mouthpiece which means my range goes away along with my endurance.

Knowing that, I can objectively assess a mouthpiece pretty quickly with lip slurs and excerpts. Go through those, and I know, ok, this mouthpiece really helps put out sound, or the upper range is taxing. Articulations are good but it didn't project at all.

In other words, all the mouthpieces around a 2G size "work" for me immediately, but also are transparent in their weaknesses and strengths. I recently tried a 2G for fun on my tenor and it felt great, sounded good, but there is no way I could play tenor rep on it. I could feel my reserve bring sapped each time I went above a G above the staff.

This wouldn't be the case if I hadn't identified the range of rim sizes that work for me. I wouldn't be able to be objective about anything if my chops were trying to adapt to yet another variable.

I think Savio just said something along the lines of "it used to be that you adapted your face to the few mouthpieces that were available", so you could find what you like about, say, the 2G and focus on that and adapt the rest of your face and air and approach until it works. So in that sense, your could stick with the mouthpiece for 6 months or whatever until it works. What is the cost of that to the rest of your playing?

I prefer to give it a day at most. The first time I tried the 1.06" size mouthpiece, moving from a 1.01 size, a lot of things improved, and a lot of things were totally different, but not worse. Nothing other than my endurance got worse, and I was able to tell that almost immediately. It took about 6 months to build up endurance and change my approach. But now, if I test something in that size, I usually like it and it works. Even the 2G. I like it, but I should probably test it in a bass, and stay below a G.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by BrianJohnston »

I agree with DE.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by Burgerbob »

FOSSIL wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:26 pm
Bach5G wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:17 pm I’ve been trying out a Bach 2G for the last little while. I’m not sold on it. How long do you think one should give a mouthpiece before deciding it’s not going to work?
Well, I gave a 2G six months at home and felt very positive about it, then went into the orchestra and it didn't last a week.... If you are not sold on it, move on. For some great players a 2G is the answer, but it's not for everyone.

Chris
I think this is important... I've definitely trialed things at home that felt great, even played duets, but it comes down to how it works in a "real" setting.

Not much many of us can do about it at the moment, of course.
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ArbanRubank
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by ArbanRubank »

My embouchure has developed to the point where I can pretty much play on any size, shape, configuration mouthpiece I want, as long as it's a Bach 5G. And there is enough variance in Bach manufacturing that if I feel my 5G isn't giving me what I want, I'll send away for another Bach 5G. I'll know very quickly if that 5G is working well for me and if it isn't, then I'll quickly switch back to my 5G.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by modelerdc »

With a new mouthpiece it's normal after a few days for your muscles to react as they tire from playing on something you are not used to. But after a few days that should go away and your playing should pick up again. If you playing continues to decline then the mouthpiece isn't right for you, at least for where you are now. For example I like the sound I get on a Wick 0AL, but my playing just starts to go downhill, and no amount of time on it seems to reverse that. It's not right for me. Would I like a similar cup for that sound but with a rim more like what works for me? Yes!
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by spencercarran »

ArbanRubank wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:04 pmI can pretty much play on any size, shape, configuration mouthpiece I want, as long as it's a Bach 5G.
You can have a Model T in any color as long as it's black :P

On topic, my feeling is that if you've given something a decent try and you're not sure if it works - it probably doesn't work.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by FOSSIL »

Burgerbob wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:39 pm
FOSSIL wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:26 pm
Well, I gave a 2G six months at home and felt very positive about it, then went into the orchestra and it didn't last a week.... If you are not sold on it, move on. For some great players a 2G is the answer, but it's not for everyone.

Chris
I think this is important... I've definitely trialed things at home that felt great, even played duets, but it comes down to how it works in a "real" setting.

Not much many of us can do about it at the moment, of course.
Just to explain further..... the 2G was fine playing through anything and everything at home, but the nature of my job, and many professional jobs, is that I sit doing nothing for long periods, then have to play quiet or loud exposed passages perfectly from the first note, every time. Whilst the 2G worked, I didn't feel confident that it would work and that is a deal breaker. I plugged in another mouthpiece mid rehearsal and could just get on with the job from that point onward. Burgerbob will probably have found the same.

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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by MStarke »

As others already said, I also often feel kind of immediately if a mouthpiece has a chance or not.
It can be the feeling of the rim, response or something missing in the sound.
Often it is really playing only a handful of notes and putting it away again.
Normally I do not have the ambition to learn to play a mouthpiece that does not initially work for me.

One important point related to also what Chris said and difficult for many at the moment:
If you generally like a mouthpiece and it may feel great at home, it may be different in other situations.
E.g. if playing in an orchestral section the requirements e.g. regarding blending can totally change things.
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ArbanRubank
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by ArbanRubank »

spencercarran wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:37 pm
ArbanRubank wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:04 pmI can pretty much play on any size, shape, configuration mouthpiece I want, as long as it's a Bach 5G.
You can have a Model T in any color as long as it's black :P

On topic, my feeling is that if you've given something a decent try and you're not sure if it works - it probably doesn't work.
Lol. If the model T is in mint condition, I'll take it!

I believe you made the point more succinctly than I did; you will know quickly if it is a good mpc or not. I see no reason to have to go through an extensive build-up to get one to work (especially at MY age). I pretty much have the attitude that I don't pick the mpc, it picks me.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by FOSSIL »

ArbanRubank wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:50 am
spencercarran wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:37 pm
You can have a Model T in any color as long as it's black :P

On topic, my feeling is that if you've given something a decent try and you're not sure if it works - it probably doesn't work.
Lol. If the model T is in mint condition, I'll take it!

I believe you made the point more succinctly than I did; you will know quickly if it is a good mpc or not. I see no reason to have to go through an extensive build-up to get one to work (especially at MY age). I pretty much have the attitude that I don't pick the mpc, it picks me.
The case with me and the 2G is a little unique... I love the sound I get with a 2G and also the sound others make on it. I got my first 2G in December 1970 and went on to a 1 1/2G about 9 months later. I have tried to get on with various 2Gs at least half a dozen times over the past 50 years and it has never quite worked out. I have a mouthpiece that gets a very similar sound but feels good too and that is now the go to.

Chris
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by Pre59 »

The used Bach Artisan 7C that I bought a number of years back, and didn't like because of the "defined" rim is now back on the tbn because of the rim. The mouthpiece itself is well within the normal size range for my small K+H, and so should have been considered, but I was used to m/p's with very comfortable rims and larger cup diameters.
I've found that the rim helps with cleaner attacks, air and tongued, and with a upper register which is easy to get up to, and down from. The initial slight discomfort that I had when returning to it a few months ago has gone, but I do have a little more of a mouthpiece ring at the moment, but how that would look after a really long gig I don't know. I've used it on two lunchtime jazz gigs so far with no bad after effects.

As things stand, there would have to be a major change in where and with whom I play, to consider a different mouthpiece, but that would have to include compatibility with another larger horn as well.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by Savio »

I believe many give it up to quickly. I would say at least 1 month. That said I also believe there is so many choices out there today. If you know what type of rim, size, etc. that fit you all the choices is a plus. If you don't know it can be frustrating and expensive. So a teacher can be good to have, or just have someone listening. I also agree with all of you there is some mouthpieces types that don't fit our anatomi. Then we know it after just some minutes. At least most of us can feel it immediately, not all. But I think there is a tendency to give up a little too quick these days. Sometimes we have to learn and grow with the time as help.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by ChadA »

It really depends on your situation, experience, and preference. I (literally) can't afford to have a mouthpiece on the job that I'm not secure with. I can't tell the conductor or the audience that I missed a note/played out of tune/didn't blend because I'm trying a new mouthpiece. :) So, for me, anything that isn't something I can play securely on the job in pretty short order isn't going to get a long trial. My schedule and life means I'm playing a lot in lessons and on the job. Less time is spent practicing than I'd like and I don't have a ton of time to devote to experimentation.

But everyone is different and mileage always varies. :)
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by hyperbolica »

I'm with Savio. Not just with mouthpieces, but with horns as well. I often play some piece of equipment, and my initial reaction is whatever it is. I play it against several other pieces, and then leave in whichever one I liked best. Might be the new one, might not. Then I come back to it the next day, the next week, the next month.

My perspective is that you can find something to like in almost anything. For example, I've settled on small and large tenor mouthpieces, but on bass, I just can't decide. On tenor, I did the whole quest that most of us go through to find the best mouthpiece. Spending thousands of dollars on testing whatever we can get our hands on. Some options are obvious, but many at least have something familiar that could be the one.

On bass, I go back and forth between Bach 1 1/4g, Ferguson L, Ferguson V, Yamaha 60, Schilke 59. Today I might run through them and pick the Bach. Next week maybe the Yamaha, or the Schilke. I can only really tell over the course of time that I tend to put in the Bach and the L more than the others. I tried a DE setup for bass, and it was perfectly good, but I decided I was too fickle in general to invest that much in a single setup (although I have 5 2/3 tenor DEs).

That confusion gets complicated by the partial overlap of bass and euphonium. The Ferguson V and Bach 2G are great on the euph. And if all I want to do is sit and play pedal F for an hour, the Schilke 59 is hard to beat, but sometimes I want to play above the staff, and that's where the 2g sounds nice. Or maybe I want a brighter baritonish sound today and the Ferguson V is the one.

Same with horns, today I love a 32h, tomorrow I love my Wessex small tenor. Yesterday it was my new Courtois.

The longer I play a combination, the better I understand it. The same is true even if I think I have the feel pegged in the first 5 minutes. What is the variable here? My ears? My chops? My standard of what I like? My mood? The last trombone sound stuck in my ear? In general, any of the options would work well, it's just down to which best suits my mood at the moment. That's a pretty fickle measure, and maybe why I feel the need to try so many different things.

I think the choices I allow myself all fall in the same kind of groove. I'm not trying to play a Wedge, or a Monette, or a Greg Black 0G. The differences are real, but they are smaller than other choices I could have made. So when I feel like I have to make a choice, it's the choice between well understood conflicting variables. That's the part that doesn't get enough attention, the conflicting variables. Sometimes we are attracted by contradicting ideas. I know I am.

Ferguson V - more core than any 1 1/2G, great upper range, low range you have to work on
Bach 1 1/4G - pretty standard and familiar Bach mouthpiece sound and feel, best over the whole range
Ferguson L - more power in the low range, not the nicest upper range
Yamaha 60 - works better for low range on the euphonium than on trombone
Schilke 59 - dull upper range, big enough bottom to make you blush

If I could only have one, it would be the 1 1/4g, but the others fit certain moods. I think you're missing out if you give up on a mouthpiece or a horn, or a leadpipe or a slide, or whatever in less than a month. You have to make the comparison over time. If you're a very stable person, you might be able to judge your feelings immediately, but as a borderline bi-polar, I embrace my moods. You have to be able to recognize grounded reality, but playing to your moods is not a bad thing. Music is at its root, I believe, the ability to conjure and portray moods, so a little moodiness in hardware selection is to be expected, if not inevitable.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by ArbanRubank »

ChadA wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:19 am It really depends on your situation, experience, and preference. I (literally) can't afford to have a mouthpiece on the job that I'm not secure with. I can't tell the conductor or the audience that I missed a note/played out of tune/didn't blend because I'm trying a new mouthpiece. :) So, for me, anything that isn't something I can play securely on the job in pretty short order isn't going to get a long trial. My schedule and life means I'm playing a lot in lessons and on the job. Less time is spent practicing than I'd like and I don't have a ton of time to devote to experimentation.

But everyone is different and mileage always varies. :)
Lol. I have used "I'm breaking in a new reed" as comic relief if I have messed up by taking a new mpc to a rehearsal. But that line was only good as a one-timer.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott »

:hi:
"as a borderline bi-polar, I embrace my moods."
:good:
I can relate to that!
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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hyperbolica
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by hyperbolica »

Doug Elliott wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:42 am :hi:
"as a borderline bi-polar, I embrace my moods."
:good:
I can relate to that!
What surprises me most about that is that someone read all of that to the end. Must be a slow day in the land of pleasant living.
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by Bach5G »

I find that I can get used to almost any mpc if I play on it for a period of time. An exception would be extremely large mpcs, say > 29.00, and even then, I can make it work with practice. I was working on a Yeo and a DE 114, for example, and felt reasonably comfortable. But, when I attended a couple of big band rehearsals just prior to the second wave in October, I found my sound getting swallowed up by the bass, piano and drums. The usual fix is to play louder, I suppose.

After reading the 2G thread and listening/watching the C Jones video, I thought I’d give a 2G a try and, while I waited for it to arrive, I played my 1 and 1/2G. After spending some time on these, I wonder whether the 2G is maybe a bridge too far. Hard to tell in my living room. Still, easier to play than the big mpcs. The sound is different, not necessarily better, just different. I just played a bit of my warm-up on the 2G - I like the sound and feel.

Meanwhile, no decisions until my new M/K leadpipe arrives from Toronto.
Last edited by Bach5G on Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ArbanRubank
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Re: How long do you give a mouthpiece?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Hah! I believe most of us have ridden the Bi-Polar Express from time-to-time this past year at least a little bit.

Bach 5G, I personally believe your username says it all!

But as to the question of how long...

I think most of us need to be born into the more extreme sizes like a Bach 12C or a Yamaha Doug Yeo if they are to work at all, while most of us could conceivably grow into most of the other less extreme sizes. And it depends on how refined our selection process is and how acute our self-learning is as to how long it takes to evaluate a candidate.
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