Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

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8parktoollover
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Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by 8parktoollover » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:46 pm

So Iv'e always had a hard time holding trigger trombone because I can't support the horn with my thumb on the brace like on a straight trombone which is why I use a hand grip on my trigger trombones. So a fairly obvious change that can be made to possibly drastically improve the ergonomics just popped into my head, instead of using a thumb trigger use a paddle operated by the index finger like on the second trigger on bass trombones, that way we could move the brace back down and use our thumb to support the instrument assuming that the thumb provides more support than the index finger.
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BGuttman
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by BGuttman » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:57 pm

There are trigger trombones where the mechanism is set up so you have the bell brace like you would on a straight tenor. My older King 4B, King 5B, and King 7B are set up this way. So is the Bach Omega with F (now called TB-200). So is the King 3B and 3B+ with F.

I don't know why this setup was abandoned. I know some people complained that the trigger was hard for them to use, but that was not a problem for me.

Some of the early devices for holding trigger trombones was a short bar attached to the receiver that simulated a bell brace on a straight tenor.
Bruce Guttman
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elmsandr
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by elmsandr » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:25 pm

Scott Hartman’s horn was like that until he went to a Shires horn.

Good picture here:
http://www1.udel.edu/udaily/2013/feb/tr ... 21113.html

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Andy
8parktoollover
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by 8parktoollover » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:33 am

Looks like a customized bach 42t
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by LeTromboniste » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:46 am

Yes the problem is when the bell brace is where it would be on a straight horn, the trigger has to be awkwardly far in order to still get enough leverage.

I'm a big fan of the Greenhoe thumbrest combined with adjustable trigger. If you set it up right you get all the good ergonomics of having the horn just rest its weight naturally onto your whole forearm without awkward wrist torque, and also perfect placement of your hand relative to the trigger.
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elmsandr
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by elmsandr » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:02 am

Yes, it was just a custom Thayer installation on a Straight 42. As I recall from asking him about this, the lever here was just what they could figure out when they realized that the handslide receiver on a 42B isn't the same as on a 42, not a designed difference for any ergonomic advantage. Having had this in my hand, the effort on this lever was VERY little. I'm surprised that we don't do more like this for Thayers, much easier motion and better lever action and advantage to get that valve moving. But the motion is very different from every other horn out there, so I can see why it would be shunned.

I currently like the build in handrest on the Shires basses, similar to the Greenhoe, but available as standard options and adjustable to different hands without a torch.

Of course if we want to go farther afield, the Haynor grip is beautiful.
kanstulcraw_3.jpg
kanstulcraw_3.jpg (266.78 KiB) Viewed 867 times
Cheers,
Andy
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sirisobhakya
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by sirisobhakya » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:02 pm

elmsandr wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:02 am
Yes, it was just a custom Thayer installation on a Straight 42. As I recall from asking him about this, the lever here was just what they could figure out when they realized that the handslide receiver on a 42B isn't the same as on a 42, not a designed difference for any ergonomic advantage. Having had this in my hand, the effort on this lever was VERY little. I'm surprised that we don't do more like this for Thayers, much easier motion and better lever action and advantage to get that valve moving. But the motion is very different from every other horn out there, so I can see why it would be shunned.

I currently like the build in handrest on the Shires basses, similar to the Greenhoe, but available as standard options and adjustable to different hands without a torch.

Of course if we want to go farther afield, the Haynor grip is beautiful.

kanstulcraw_3.jpg

Cheers,
Andy
Do you have the picture of the grip? Interesting.
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Mamaposaune
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by Mamaposaune » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:17 pm

A former student of mine had an 88H that had been modified so the trigger was under the hand brace, operated like the 2nd trigger on a bass just as you suggested. I don't know who did the modification; I do know he purchased it used from Dillon Music. It was his first F-attachment horn so he didn't have a "normal" one to compare it to, but he liked the horn. Interesting to me, someone had also re-lined the case.
norbie2018
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by norbie2018 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:12 am

The Neo tech brace is cheap and alleviates allot of the stress of holding a trigger trombone. The bullet brace and ax handle are more expensive options but are also effective at making the trigger trombone easier to hold. I've owned all three and they are all quite effective.
Last edited by norbie2018 on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
8parktoollover
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by 8parktoollover » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:00 am

I use the neotech grip on my bach 42b and I have no complaints.
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by brassmedic » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:30 pm

I think the old King design with your thumb going over the bell brace was ergonomically inferior. I have far more customers asking me to "make my King trigger more like a Bach trigger", than the other way around. You don't actually need your thumb to support the trombone. If you're holding it correctly, your thumb doesn't have to touch any part of the trombone to hold it up. And if you get fatigued and need that extra support from your thumb, adding a rest bar to the instrument works just fine. It's really about the pivot point of the lever, and the old King design had the pivot point too close to the paddle (which is necessary if your thumb is going around the bell brace), making the throw awkward and tiring for the player. I think Bach got it right, and that's why the majority of trombones being made now have that type of design. There's no need to re-invent the wheel here.
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2bobone
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by 2bobone » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:33 pm

I always found the King trigger arrangement, found as original equipment on the Duo Gravis horns, to be absolutely terrific ! If every instrument I have owned over the years had had the option of that setup, I would have elected to have it. That being said ----- no one ever seems to mention that the King system was designed specifically to be used for dependent valves. You'd have to be pretty double-jointed to operate ONLY the trigger for the "G" valve on the King system, and even then it wouldn't work without the "F" trigger being engaged. I have never been able to understand why a designer of "split" triggers would assign the role of operating the "G" valve to one of the strongest fingers we have. That strong middle finger could far better be used to support the seemingly ever increasing weight of a double trigger bass trombone ! Perhaps because my first double trigger horn of consequence was a dependent King Duo Gravis, I only used the "G" valve in combination with the "F" valve . When I moved on to the King 8B, which has the very familiar setup of using the thumb for the "F" trigger and the middle finger for the "G" valve and would be regarded as an independent horn, I still tended to use the "G" valve ONLY in combination with the "F" trigger. It would be quite interesting to hear of other players who use the "G" valve independently on a regular basis. I'm aware of instances where it could be, and is useful. But, is it really a situation where players habitually use the "G" valve independently ? There are only a few notes on which I would find it to provide any technical improvement. Say !! I've got a GREAT idea :idea: We're not that far away from it, so why not just add a third valve and have a totally chromatic instrument without ever having to move the slide ?
Patent pending --------------------------.
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BGuttman
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Re: Idea for trigger trombone ergonomics improvement

Post by BGuttman » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:14 pm

I have a King 7B and use the Gb valve alone fairly regularly:

1. If I want to play F bottom of the bass staff. The springs aren't long enough to allow me to shorten the slide to bring it in tune. On the Gb valve it's in a short 2nd.

2. In some sharp keys the Gb valve (think of it as an F# valve) can make some of the fingerings a little better.

3. There is one lick in the Waltz of the Flowers (Nutcracker) which is a chromatic run starting on A and going to C#. It's all in one line on the Gb valve.
Bruce Guttman
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