Bach cello suites

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JCBone
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Bach cello suites

Post by JCBone »

I have a recital coming up and was considering programming bach cello suite 1 for bass trombone. Do you think this would be wise?
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WilliamLang
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by WilliamLang »

if this is for a paying audience, probably not, unless you can play on a Pollard/Markey level. If it's a student recital, go ahead and take that risk!

best of luck on the recital
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by JCBone »

WilliamLang wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:17 pm if this is for a paying audience, probably not, unless you can play on a Pollard/Markey level. If it's a student recital, go ahead and take that risk!

best of luck on the recital
It's a student's recital. It certainly is very daunting but I'm willing to try to push myself.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by WilliamLang »

that's great! work hard with your teacher, listen to a lot of cellists, and play for string players at your school if you can (and accept constructive criticism! strings got a lot of things to say when it comes to their suites)
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vetsurginc
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by vetsurginc »

Ralph Sauer arrangement?
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by JCBone »

vetsurginc wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:54 am Ralph Sauer arrangement?
No just the regular cello music.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by JCBone »

So I consulted with my teacher and he said to only perform mvmt 5-7 as all the other ones don't really work musically on trombone. What do you guys think
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by BGuttman »

Try the other movements as an exercise, but listen to your teacher.

Some things are inherently much easier on the cello than on the trombone.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by Burgerbob »

I played all of suite 1 minus the Prelude on my senior recital. I don't see why you couldn't as well.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by hyperbolica »

The cello suites are deceptively simple. To play them well, first you have to be a master of intervals and wide range intervals at that. That in itself takes a lot of practice.

To be most effective, you need to be able to lip slur like crazy, and use tons of alternate positions.

Then you have to do some real study and mark out all the phrasing. This you will probably need some help with.

Those are the big things. If you don't have those and can't work them up in time, then you might let these go until next year. The suites are simple, but they can make you look like an amateur trombone player struggling through well-known cello music very easily.

Most of all, listen to your teacher.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by AndrewMeronek »

The cello suites are wonderful but yeah, some of the movements in the various suites don't work nearly as well on bass trombone as on cello. So, picking and choosing which ones to do is IMHO a great idea.

Another thing worth thinking about: for the movements that don't work with one bass trombone, two bass trombones probably would work fine. That would also make for a potentially great introduction to arranging: making decisions about when the two trade, or cover multiple-stops in different ways, or when they play in unison, and so on.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by Cmillar »

We have to breath in order to play, unlike a cello.

I don't think we should even try to sound like a YoYo Ma on the trombone.

My take on the Cello Suites:

- to keep them musical, we have to have a good sense of time through the suites (like YoYo or any other great cellist)
- so, because we have to breath, why not skip some of the 'non-important' sixteenth or eighth notes in some extremely long, continuous musical line in any of the suites? Keep the time going, but skip some of the notes when you have to breath

Which notes to skip? Figure out what makes sense musically....what's the chord; can you skip a leading tone or not?; can you leave out a passing note that doesn't really shape the harmonic progression or the musical flow? etc.

I think it's more important to keep the overall musical flow and harmonic structure 'moving' and 'flowing'.

So, I like to play them differently each time and try to figure out the best flow by leaving out certain notes in order to take a breath (But....a breath 'in time' with the flow)

I'd like to think that Bach would rather hear us make music....instead of trying to make a 'gallient effort' in trying to mimic a cello.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by Savio »

I find it hard to say what other people should do. I really like to play the cello suites, good music and fun to play. Do it your way and what you feel together with your teacher. We can't do it like cellist but we get ideas. Good luck!
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by JCBone »

I can play the notes in the prelude and I can play the ending with the slurs from g to a but I can see how it wouldn't sound good on trombone. I guess the last 3 movements are the easiest but they need good musicality.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

I think it is a good idea to perform works from different eras in recitals. Too much music from one period of music can sometimes make for a monotonous program. This is why I believe representing a variety of centuries is a good practice. Placing a Baroque work on your program certainly adds that variety.

The problem with many Baroque works on the trombone is that we are stealing music originally written for other instruments.....most notably the cello. The cello player does not need to worry about breathing and wiggling their chops around in order to keep the blood circulating on their face. For this reason, I think a trombone player must be very careful in how they program things like the Bach Cello Suites and other Baroque works in a recital. Doing fewer movements, rather than more movements, might be the safer route. Also, choosing a Baroque piece which has rests or sections in which only the continuo play is a good idea.

I have played Baroque works in some recitals which left me pondering these things: That part with the wide intervals really taxed my chops....why did I include that extra movement in the Bach Suite? Maybe I should have only played three movements of the Marcello, instead of four?

Hindsight always gives us 20/20 vision, so a person must perform in a few recitals to see how their body reacts to the experience. While going through this process, I recommend going with a conservative approach the Baroque literature to see how things go.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by BrianJohnston »

WilliamLang wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:17 pm if this is for a paying audience, probably not, unless you can play on a Pollard/Markey level. If it's a student recital, go ahead and take that risk!

best of luck on the recital
+1
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:19 am The problem with many Baroque works on the trombone is that we are stealing music originally written for other instruments.....most notably the cello.
Yeeeees . . . but many Baroque works were written to be played by many kinds of instruments. Bach's Cello Suites are an exception, where something was written originally to be performed by someone specific. Even when this happens, variations were often expected in the accompanying instruments. For example, there are many variations on Scarlatti's La Follia to be found on Youtube, even though in general this was originally written as a virtuosic violin feature. This flexibility was expected, although perhaps more often earlier in the Baroque and perhaps more often outside of Germany. A Baroque scholar would know more than I would about regional expectations of instrumentations.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by hyperbolica »

Let's not get wound around the axle about IF we should play this music. Of course we should play this music. Most music we as trombone players play is not written for us.

The suites have a lot of musical and technical things to teach us. Phrasing and intervals/flexibility are the big tickets.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by LeTromboniste »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:28 am
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:19 am The problem with many Baroque works on the trombone is that we are stealing music originally written for other instruments.....most notably the cello.
Yeeeees . . . but many Baroque works were written to be played by many kinds of instruments. Bach's Cello Suites are an exception, where something was written originally to be performed by someone specific. Even when this happens, variations were often expected in the accompanying instruments. For example, there are many variations on Scarlatti's La Follia to be found on Youtube, even though in general this was originally written as a virtuosic violin feature. This flexibility was expected, although perhaps more often earlier in the Baroque and perhaps more often outside of Germany. A Baroque scholar would know more than I would about regional expectations of instrumentations.
It's true that early baroque works are often for open instrumentation, or written for more than one possible instruments (i.e. trombone or viola da gamba; trombone or bassoon; trombone or violone). In Bach's time, not so much anymore. By then, pieces pretty much have a fixed instrumentation, generally. The cello suites in particular are cello music, very clearly. Would anyone have played Bach cello suites on trombone at the time? No, certainly not. The level of the trombone players Bach knew was not anywhere close to virtuosic enough, plus they are also just incompatible with using a style of playing that was idiomatic on trombone at the time (slurring everything like that was not considered good playing on any wind instrument). And it's impossible to play without a valve anyway. It's only possible on modern trombone. Some of the slightly earlier pieces we typically do on trombone like Marcello or the Telemann bassoon sonata are likewise not intended for flexible instrumentation, although being much less specifically idiomatic, they are easier to render convincingly on trombone.

It's beside the point though, since we're not talking about playing on historical instruments or even pretending to be playing in a historically informed way. I think if you're playing it on modern trombone with modern technique and phrasing concepts, pretty much anything goes. I have no problem whatsoever from a historical standpoint with things like this, or with Lindberg playing the Four seasons on trombone. If you were to play them on sackbut and/or present it as historical, then I'd have more of an issue with it.


Going back to the initial OP question though, my opinion from a purely musical standpoint is that I wouldn't perform an entire Bach cello suite, for the simple reason that I've never heard a single recording (let alone live performance) of one on trombone that sounded musically convincing or satisfying, even from the best players. Isolated movements can work, sure, but most of the movements just don't. Like was said above, these pieces can and will easily make even a top level professional sound amateurish. It might impress trombone players, but that's about it (likewise with my Lindberg playing Vivaldi example, it's impressive for us as trombone players but if you ever have a violinist or any non-trombonist who is minimally connoisseur listen to it they will be cringing the entire time). You should absolutely practice them for your own pleasure and as a learning tool if you like them though.

And I'll add one more thing. Like I mentioned, the writing of the Bach cello suites is incompatible with playing in a style that was idiomatic of baroque trombones. So they might as well have been written in the 19th or 20th century, we'd still play them the same way. That in itself isn't a problem if someone wants to perform them just because they are good music, but if part of the goal of playing them (which I'm not assuming is the case of the OP but it came up in the discussion later) is to have a baroque piece and display that you can play different styles, the cello suites won't actually tick that box, and there are many much more idiomatic pieces that will.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by Bach5G »

And then:

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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by hyperbolica »

If you want something that is more wind appropriate in a similar style, the Telemann flute fantasies are an option.



Edited by Ralph Sauer
https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... ies-12.php
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by robcat2075 »

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Last edited by robcat2075 on Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by Elow »

What’s everyone’s favorite suite 2 prelude and sarabande recordings? I am attempting to work them up for an audition. It’s hard, very hard but doable.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by robcat2075 »

robcat2075 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:00 pm There is also a set of 12 Fantasies for bassoon by Telemann, edited for trombone. I presume he wrote them on the same afternoon as his flute fantasies.

I've noodled through them all, some lie well for bass trombone, but none have the musical interest of the Bach cello suites. There's about one good movement in each suite.
Now that I re-read the foreword of my Alan Raph edition of the Telemann fantasies, I note that he doesn't actually say they were for bassoon, I just presumed that when he said they were for "a wind instrument"

They are indeed the same as the flute fantasies, if sometimes transposed to different keys.

Sorry. False alarm. Now I like them even less.

[edit] But are they even for flute? The oldest published version, the "first edition" on IMSLP says they are "for the Violin"

It's quite mysterious.

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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by Bach5G »

I recently heard a bit of Bach cello suite #1 played in ukelele. The light, plinkety-plink, uke sound really suited the piece. Quite nice.
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by hyperbolica »

Here is some playing from Ralph Sauer on the Telemann flute fantasies in 1978 that formed me as an early player:



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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by LeTromboniste »

robcat2075 wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:39 am
robcat2075 wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:00 pm There is also a set of 12 Fantasies for bassoon by Telemann, edited for trombone. I presume he wrote them on the same afternoon as his flute fantasies.

I've noodled through them all, some lie well for bass trombone, but none have the musical interest of the Bach cello suites. There's about one good movement in each suite.
Now that I re-read the foreword of my Alan Raph edition of the Telemann fantasies, I note that he doesn't actually say they were for bassoon, I just presumed that when he said they were for "a wind instrument"

They are indeed the same as the flute fantasies, if sometimes transposed to different keys.

Sorry. False alarm. Now I like them even less.

[edit] But are they even for flute? The oldest published version, the "first edition" on IMSLP says they are "for the Violin"

It's quite mysterious.
They are accepted as being for transverse flute. The title page is thought to not be original, and associated with the wrong collection; he also did publish a set of 12 fantasias for solo violin, which are different. His catalog published alongside his autobiography describes a single set of fantasias each for harpsichord, flute, violin and gamba (i.e. not 2 sets for violin). The assumption is that the title page was mistakenly included when the book was rebound by the library (possibly in the 19th century). It only survives in a single copy so can't be compared with other copies of the same edition. It is clearly idiomatic for flute, and misses a lot of things that are very idiomatic for violin (such as multiple stops and using the open G string).
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Re: Bach cello suites

Post by biggiesmalls »

Elow wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:03 pm What’s everyone’s favorite suite 2 prelude and sarabande recordings? I am attempting to work them up for an audition. It’s hard, very hard but doable.
Here's a lovely recent interpretation by Michael Buchanan (thanks to DaCapo for the link):
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