How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

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Kingfan
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Kingfan »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:33 pm I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.
I'm still looking at a variety of ways to take that first step. What are your ideas on great simple ways to get started?
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Kingfan »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:33 pm I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.
So far today I started to look up an old bandmate who did what I'm trying to do many years ago. I can't remember his name, but have feelers out. I checked with three local colleges, one has the New Horizon program with a jazz band and I'm waiting on them to get back to me. I've got an idea or two of things I can do starting tomorrow. That said, I'm very interested to know what great simple steps you would suggest. I'm scared, but I'm not giving up (yet).
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by harrisonreed »

Based on some of this stuff, it seems like the idea (from people who can't improvise, like me) is that people who improvise well are some sort of wizards who can read every change as it comes, analyze on the fly, and make music come out like some sort of scientist. I think it's usually a lot more feel and experience than being a scientist.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by bimmerman »

I also suck at improvising, and have mostly made my peace with the fact I won't be able to join any of the local big bands (my fave type of playing) without much better improv skills. I've tried to learn enough basics to become competent enough to be a section player.....and have honestly given up.

Over the years, I've attended jazz camps, had lessons, bought books, and nothing has really helped. The instructors and teachers I've had pretty much said "just play the changes what's wrong with you, use xyz scale here" which....is distinctly unhelpful.

A greater focus on ear training would probably help quite a bit, but realistically, I just don't have the time or motivation anymore to devote to learning improv. Which sucks, but hobby time isn't infinite.

And yea, I recognize this is a self fulfilling prophecy.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Bach5G »

“ Over the years, I've attended jazz camps, had lessons, bought books, and nothing has really helped. The instructors and teachers I've had pretty much said "just play the changes what's wrong with you, use xyz scale here" which....is distinctly unhelpful.”

I’ve never found the chord/theory approach very helpful on trombone although it’s a tad more useful on guitar (I also play some guitar). I don’t think we’re missing out in not be able to run scales.

I discovered this tune this week. Kind of struck me as state of the art big band trombone soloing. Christian McBride BB

https://music.apple.com/ca/album/in-a-h ... =461294160

James Burton – trombone
Steve Davis – trombone
Michael Dease – trombone
Douglas Purviance – bass trombone

Mike Lake seems to have some interesting things to say about improvising on trombone. Has anyone looked at his stuff? He had a free E-book that appears to be a very basic first step in learning to improvise.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by ithinknot »

"You've got to know loads of theory in advance" vs "You don't need theory - just listen and feel, maaaaan" vs "Erroll Garner couldn't read music"

None is the answer in isolation. Knowledge is always useful, listening and feeling is mandatory (and is just a more personal form of obtaining knowledge). And yes, some of the greats grew up self-taught within a rich musical environment and/or primarily aural/oral tradition - but if you fell into this category, you'd already know about it.

So, as has been said, try playing along with a record you know, busk along with the tv, find a 12 bar blues backing track on YouTube. This is how you start, right now. Pick out the tonic (or any note) and hold it. As the chords change underneath, feel how your note fits some, and fights some others. You were going to practise long tones today anyway, right? :good: Maybe you bring a second note into the mix; maybe that's for tomorrow.

Listen with intent.

Learn theory.

Work on ear training! This isn't just for improv. Practice should be a feedback loop; anything that improves your listening ability makes every aspect of the process more efficient.

Every one of these is an infinite ladder, not a binary ability.

The same goes for confidence. I can't protect you from the opprobrium of your pets, but everyone here wants you to enjoy playing and no one really cares what you sound like, at least until you start demanding payment.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by FOSSIL »

Kingfan wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:47 pm
Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:33 pm I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.
So far today I started to look up an old bandmate who did what I'm trying to do many years ago. I can't remember his name, but have feelers out. I checked with three local colleges, one has the New Horizon program with a jazz band and I'm waiting on them to get back to me. I've got an idea or two of things I can do starting tomorrow. That said, I'm very interested to know what great simple steps you would suggest. I'm scared, but I'm not giving up (yet).
I think what Doug is saying is that you can buy some personal time with him....it's sort of called a lesson and it's how (one way) Doug earns his living. We should all respect that.

Chris
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Kingfan »

FOSSIL wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:00 am
Kingfan wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:47 pm

So far today I started to look up an old bandmate who did what I'm trying to do many years ago. I can't remember his name, but have feelers out. I checked with three local colleges, one has the New Horizon program with a jazz band and I'm waiting on them to get back to me. I've got an idea or two of things I can do starting tomorrow. That said, I'm very interested to know what great simple steps you would suggest. I'm scared, but I'm not giving up (yet).
I think what Doug is saying is that you can buy some personal time with him....it's sort of called a lesson and it's how (one way) Doug earns his living. We should all respect that.

Chris
I've had a Skype lesson with him in the past, that is how I found the "perfect" mouthpiece for me. Great guy!
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by FOSSIL »

Ah ! Well you'll trust him over improvising then.
I've had a personal project in lockdown to improve my improvisation abilities...I nearly said skills, but they don't qualify as skills. A lot of playing along to backing tracks of standards...getting used to the tunes...lots of repetition, and I mean lots. It's been nice to open that door a crack and I have just tried to feel my way around the melodies and have a bit of fun with them. Trying not to think too hard...just listen..and listen...and listen.
Relax and enjoy...nobody's listening to you listening .

Chris
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Doug Elliott »

I'll give you a little free time... Contact me
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by BGuttman »

Just remember. The great improvisers of the past did not say "Oh. This is a Gb minor 7 sus chord so I need to play a flat Bb here.". They developed a feel for the tune including chords by sound. That's learned by practice, familiarization with the head, and a lot of listening to good practitioners.

Try not to be too academic.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by ithinknot »

BGuttman wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:23 pm The great improvisers of the past did not say "Oh. This is a ...
Plenty of them did.

It's not one or the other. It all helps.

Removing 'theory' from the equation doesn't necessarily make improvising more accessible - it's substituting one form of perceived mystery or insecurity (superhuman chord scientists!) for another (magic ears, magic instinct!).

You should want to know which notes are in the chord AND how they feel, and you can.
Last edited by ithinknot on Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

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Doug Elliott wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:14 pm I'll give you a little free time... Contact me
Pm sent.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Bach5G »

BGuttman wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:23 pm Just remember. The great improvisers of the past did not say "Oh. This is a Gb minor 7 sus chord so I need to play a flat Bb here.". They developed a feel for the tune including chords by sound. That's learned by practice, familiarization with the head, and a lot of listening to good practitioners.

Try not to be too academic.
According to a local heavy hitter, head/heart is 60/40 or 40/60. It varies.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by johntarr »

Kingfan wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:44 pm
Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:33 pm I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.
I'm still looking at a variety of ways to take that first step. What are your ideas on great simple ways to get started?
There has been some interesting research on learning and memory that shows that if a beginner starts by reading notation, they will have a harder time developing their auditory memory. Those of us who started as readers may have some extra hurdles to overcome when learning to improvise. It’s already been said, but the very first step would be to play what you know, simple melodies in different keys after singing them. Learn to play whatever you need to get started. Sing one note and then find it on your horn. Then sing two notes and after that “Hot Crossed Buns.” There is no shame in starting where you are. In fact, it’s the only place you can start. At the same time, listening to jazz masters can help you start hearing the language.

Part of the problem with jazz education, as Doug said, is that there’s so much material and well meaning educators are saying things like, “you need to practice all these scales, chords, guide tones, approach notes, pentatonic scales, tritone substitution and on and on so that it’s just too daunting.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Doug Elliott »

"Those of us who started as readers may have some extra hurdles to overcome when learning to improvise."

That is pretty good justification for starting beginners BOTH reading and with some emphasis on playing by ear, or at least ear training to some degree. Think of the beginners who write positions over every note and don't ever really learn anything because they're not reading OR using their ears .
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Kingfan »

My niece started on alto in 5th grade band. She started private lessons with a teacher who also played guitar and got her started on both reading fundamentals and playing by ear. She went on to learn from a sax teacher who straddled the "serious" and jazz worlds well. Lucky girl.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by harrisonreed »

"serious sax music" :???:






Especially at 1:35 in the Kenny G one! The way he resolves his musical message at 1:45 is what I live for! The more times I listen to 1:35-1:46, the more right it sounds.

:biggrin:
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Posaunus »

harrisonreed wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:03 pm "serious sax music"
Can't tell you what sax music does to me. At least, not on a public forum! :horror:
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by quiethorn »

Percussionist Jamey Haddad once said something like, "Find the 1 or 2 things that you can natively do really well and build on that."

So when you pick up the horn and just start noodling around, what comes out? Not when you're trying to sound like so-and-so or trying to copy some cool licks, but when you're just playing what feels good and natural. If you can find that, you can build on it. Play what feels good, not what sounds good. Eventually, what feels good will start sounding good.

There's lots of good advice in this thread, but you've been at this for 40 years, so you've obviously tried a bunch of this stuff. So here's something different from the book "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones", a story called "One Note of Zen". I've trimmed it way down.

"Kakua visited China and accepted the true teaching. The emperor heard about Kakua when he returned to Japan and asked him to preach Zen for his edification and that of his subjects. Kakua stood before the emperor in silence. He then produced a flute from the folds of his robe and blew one short note. Bowing politely, he disappeared."

Next time you have a 16-bar solo, see if you can limit yourself to just one short note. I guarantee you'll get more smiles than the sax player playing as many notes as he can or the trumpet player playing as high as he can. If you make this your regular schtick but just move around the placement of the note each time, every time you stand up for your solo, everyone will perk up in anticipation of when you're gonna play the note. The rhythm section might even actually listen to you and try to predict when you're gonna hit your note so they can do it with you. Play your note, take a bow, and disappear.

Pro tip for a sarcastic solo: a 12-bar blues has 12 bars. A chromatic scale has 12 notes. A descending or ascending chromatic scale fits perfectly if you play one pitch per bar. If there is a God, surely he designed things this way.

My trombone teacher in high school (now a well-known bass trombone player) told me at my first lesson, "We want every sound we make when we perform to be beautiful, so when we practice, we have to make sure all our sounds are also beautiful" or some such nonsense.

A few months later, he literally laughed at me as I struggled to get through a challenging bass trombone solo he had me working on. So I quit lessons and decided his advice about sounding "beautiful" was also probably stupid. As I matured, I realized I was right... that you can't grow unless you're first willing to sound like absolute shit and do sound like absolute shit for a time.

Anyway, maybe this isn't useful. I just think if it's your fear of sounding "good" that's holding you back, then commit to not sounding "good" and do something else. It's supposed to be fun.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Redthunder »

johntarr wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:16 pm
There has been some interesting research on learning and memory that shows that if a beginner starts by reading notation, they will have a harder time developing their auditory memory.


This is absolutely correct. Music is like language in this regard because children spend years absorbing, processing, babbling, imitating, and ultimately speaking full intelligible sentences long before they are ever given a book to try and learn to read from. And yet in most traditional models of instrumental music education, students (both children and adults) are tasked with learning to hold a new object, produce a sound, manipulate the keys or slide, AND read notation, simultaneously. The kids that tend to do well with this are almost always the ones that had a decent amount of exposure to music in advance from parents or some other place, and for everyone else, it's an uphill battle.
but the very first step would be to play what you know, simple melodies in different keys after singing them.
Yes, yes, and yes. This cannot be overstated enough. Too many people become discouraged because they are expected to begin with transcribing complicated jazz solos, without the appropriate pre-requisites of having built a strong aural skills foundation by using what you already know as a guide. It's the same problem as mentioned above, tasking yourself with too many unfamiliar things at the same time. I've been there.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by baileyman »

ithinknot wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:17 am ... busk along with the tv...
His kids would be watching tv in the afternoon and The Flintstones would come on. He would rush out of the bathroom, then Carl Fontana would get, what?, 64 bars of rhythm changes then head back to practice some more.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by jbeatenbough »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:33 pm I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.
I'm interested!!

I had no idea that there were so many decent trombone players that are in the same boat I'm in. Having played for years and in some areas are pretty damn good, but when it is time to improvise...suck! I totally believe the biggest secret is to become one with the horn. I can whistle or sing the hell out of an improvised solo...I just can't play it and that recognition and the fear that goes along with it has been building for years on end.

This thread is so far the most inspiring I've seen yet on this board!

Next? I want to hear some stories from some folks that were once in the boat we (several of us in this topic) are in, but, after applying one/some/all of the recommended learning approaches have managed to get off the boat and onto paradise island.

To those in the boat with me... let's make an agreement...minimum of 3 hrs/week of trying to play along with something (many suggestions already made to us for things to play along with - pick one). Any takers?
John

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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by MagnumH »

One book that was thoroughly recommended to me is "Developing Musicianship Through Improvisation" by Christopher D. Azzara and Richard F. Grunow, both of whom are professors at Eastman (and the book was recommended by Mark Kellogg, one of the Eastman trombone professors). It follows a lot of the doctrine already suggested here, including starting with walking bass lines and playing the triads over the changes, leading up through playing streams of 8ths (not attempting to be musical, just as an exercise in staying On Mode), and up to developing your improv. from there. Whilst I haven't bought the book myself as yet, I've worked through some of the exercises and ideas with Prof. Kellogg and they're SUPER helpful.

For example, making up and playing simple bass lines is the BEST way to begin training yourself to "hear" and to "feel" the chord changes and the structure of the song, and it also gives you a "safe spot" to return to when you are improvising.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by MagnumH »

Also, lessons with understanding pros should not be undervalued. Doug Elliott of course is a top choice, and Neo Bri (also a user on this forum) is another specialist in this area.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Bach5G »

Some technology that can help:

1 IReal Pro - changes to tunes, but also exercises, such as simple blues, ii-Vs, etc. Phone app. Pair it with your Bluetooth speaker.

2. Band in a Box. At its simplest level, put in the changes you want to work on, press go.

3. Transcription apps: Amazing Slow Downer, Transcribe! and Transcribe+. Slow down and loop sections of music.

4. Sher published The Real Easy Book (or maybe the Easy Real Book). Easier jazz tunes for beginning improvisers.
Last edited by Bach5G on Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Walking bass lines are great... But not a place to "start."

You guys are inspiring me to write out some of my ideas about how to really start from absolutely nothing.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by imsevimse »

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:46 pm Walking bass lines are great... But not a place to "start."

You guys are inspiring me to write out some of my ideas about how to really start from absolutely nothing.
That's really interesting. I'm looking forward to this. One thing I've asked many good improvisers (saxplayers and trumpeters over here) is what they are thinking at the exact moment when they are improvising. Where are their thoughts? Noone has ever answered that question. Most look at me very suspicious and start to tell me how to prepare instead. Learn scales and patterns and transcribe solos, listen and play from your heart. Noone wants or can tell what the thoughts are in the moment when the solo is played.

/Tom
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Kingfan »

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:46 pm Walking bass lines are great... But not a place to "start."

You guys are inspiring me to write out some of my ideas about how to really start from absolutely nothing.
DO IT!!!!
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Doug Elliott »

I used to ask players the same thing.
The truth is, it's sort of a stream of consciousness kind of thing based on everything you know, have prepared, and responding to what you're hearing. More or less just thinking "how do I get through this"

If you haven't done your homework, it's going to sound like a bad translation from a foreign language, with words strung together that don't make any sense.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by FOSSIL »

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:35 pm I used to ask players the same thing.
The truth is, it's sort of a stream of consciousness kind of thing based on everything you know, have prepared, and responding to what you're hearing. More or less just thinking "how do I get through this"

If you haven't done your homework, it's going to sound like a bad translation from a foreign language, with words strung together that don't make any sense.
Brilliant...just brilliant.

Chris
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Jimprindle »

As a bass trombonist, I am not usually called upon to improvise. But have learned the situation to figure it out.

More than 50 years ago, in college, I was the only trombone player in a group that was hired to play what we used to call “businessman‘s bounce.” Background music at hotel lunches. We sometimes had lead sheets from hit songs, popular movies or musicals, and each of the musicians usually (about six) had to be able to do at least 16 bars of improv on top of that. Nobody was listening, but the experience of having to play out of my head just listening to the rhythm section helped me a lot.

Later I fell into a Dixieland group and also a Tijuana brass group. Again, just by listening to the rhythm section and the other players I made it up on my own. But probably the most successful attempt at improvising for me was late nights in my college music department jamming with people on everything from Miles Davis to blues. Especially blues. Chords are simple and you can make up whatever you want and everybody likes it.

I still do not like improvising in front of an audience, but hanging out and jamming with your friends in a good rhythm section is really the best way to learn how to make up your own songs. And of course, listening, listening, listening to lots of styles and players. Not just trombonists.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by imsevimse »

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:35 pm I used to ask players the same thing.
The truth is, it's sort of a stream of consciousness kind of thing based on everything you know, have prepared, and responding to what you're hearing. More or less just thinking "how do I get through this"

If you haven't done your homework, it's going to sound like a bad translation from a foreign language, with words strung together that don't make any sense.
Makes sense. Then to be absolutely 'blank' and not remember what happened might not be a bad thing. The difference is in the preparation. If you spent all your time playing triads your solos will contain triads. If you have spent time on scales the solo will contain scales. If you spend time on playing without listening your solos will also be like that. It will consist of everything you spent time on. Just let loose.

/Tom
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by johntarr »

Another aspect of this question is cultivating and developing the mindset for learning. As has been written above, the need for ear training, language and technique is very important. However, a fear based approach will hamper even the best learning programs.

A book by jazz pianist, Kenny Werner called, “Effortless Mastery” addresses this topic very thoroughly. He invites, or sometimes chides the reader to consider the idea of learning to get her/his ego out of the way. This too is something that needs to be practiced, just like scales and arpeggios.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Splendour »

Savio wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:45 am I'm definitely not an expert here, but I also think it has a lot to do with being brave enough to just trying. I teach a lot of kids and they seem to be more brave than me.
Back in 2019 I went to Rath Day organized by Rath Trombones. There was a variety of mass playing, performances, and features, including a half hour introduction to improvisation from Robbie Harvey. When he asked for a volunteer from the audience there was a couple of seconds nervous silence from the crowd until one of us was brave enough to step up and play with him - a 12 year old.

Robbie was really good at explaining what he was doing, initially just playing short three or four note phrases and having the young lad play them back, call and response style, then mixing up the order the phrases were played in. Simple stuff, but effective. By the end of 30 minutes I was kicking myself for not having stepped up despite having no previous experience of improvisation.

Since then I've been trying to play along by ear with a variety of jazz and blues from time to time and have got to the stage where I no longer wince most of the time when I listen to a recording of myself.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by johntarr »

One project that I’ve found very useful is to break up dominant scales into three note bits and make riffs out of them. For the Bb blues, practice 3-4-5 and its various combinations on all the three chords. This also trains hearing the third. Then 5-6-b7 and b7-8-9. Once you are comfortable with those you can combine them. 5-6-b7 on Bb resolving the Ab to the G in the Eb chord and playing 3-4-5. In this way you can build simple lines that connect the important notes of the chords.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by jbeatenbough »

For a great example of what by ear learning can do, browse youtube for Sant Andreu Jazz Band and Joan Chamorro...listen to what he has these kids playing...totally amazing. It is really something to see kids age 7 to 20 playing along with the likes of Wycliffe Gordon and Scott Hamilton.

"Joan is “old school” and believes that starting a youngster’s musical education by teaching scales and to read music is too mechanical. He believes that it is more important for a novice to learn what a given note will sound like than to know how to read the note. He therefore focuses on connecting his students to the music by having them listen to the music they will play so they can hear what it sounds like."
John

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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Wilktone »

Very interesting conversation here, with lots of great advice. My two cents, however, is that there's so much involved in learning to improvisation that there's too much information out there and this can inhibit our improvement. In many ways, learning to improvise is like learning to juggle. Here are a couple of similarities.

First, you need to work to get over not sounding good. Jugglers have an expression, if you're not dropping you're not learning. If you want to improve in your improvisation, you need to figure out where your limitations are and push at them. We tend to practice things we already can do well, which is fun but not very conducive to improvement. It's also possible to practice too much at once (see below) and end up spinning our wheels a lot. We tend to learn best when we work on things that we can almost, but not quite, do well and work to correct those things with attainable short-term goals.

The other way learning to improvise is like juggling is that both are like eating an elephant. You can't gulp it down all at once, you need to eat it one bite at a time. When first learning to juggle you start off tossing one ball back and forth between your hands, then gradually add more balls until you're actually juggling. With improvisation you need to start with one topic and make sure you're comfortable with that before you move on. When working on that single topic you have to expect that you're going to be dropping some "balls." That's OK, because you'll come back to those other topics later.

I mentioned Hal Crook's "How To Improvise: An Approach To Practicing Improvisation" in this thread earlier. I prefer to start my students off with improvisation the same way Crook recommends, with what he calls "Pacing." The general idea of this topic is to stop playing so much and allow silences to happen in your improvisations. This concept forms the basis for the rest of the topics in his book. By using a "play/rest" approach while practicing you are giving yourself a chance to evaluate what you just played and think about what's coming up and what you need to do. Here's Crook's basic practice routine for working on this topic for a hypothetical 1 hour practice session:

Choose a mode of practice - playing along with a single chord, playing along on a tune progression, playing along with no harmonic progression (you can use accompaniment play-a-longs, another player, just a metronome, or no accompaniment).

10 minutes - the general idea of pacing, using silence in your improvisation

30 minutes - specific exercises that force yourself to play and rest.
1. Even bar play/rest combinations (play for 4 rest for 4, 1 and 1, 2 and 2, 1 and 3, 3 and 1, 2 and 6, 6 and 2, etc.)
2. Odd bar play/rest combinations (play for 1 rest for 2, 2 and 1, 3 and 2, 2 and 3, 4 and 1, 1 and 4, etc.)

10 minutes - back to the general idea

10 minutes - forget what you just practiced and just jam, let the spirit and the mood of the music take you where you want to go

Record yourself for evaluation. It's a good idea to occasionally transcribe your own solos and learn to play them. It gives you a chance to actually fix some of the mistakes. And sometimes your mistakes will be more creative than what you meant to play. Assimilate how silence in your improvisations can be used for musical effect.

After some time spent on this single topic you'll feel comfortable enough with the concept of pacing that you can start working on new topics while still giving yourself those moments of silence to think about what you just played and what you're about to play. The "Pacing ball" will be natural to you and you won't drop it when thinking about chord tones or rhythmic density or phrase lengths or whatever other topic you're working on.
jbeatenbough wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:27 am "Joan is “old school” and believes that starting a youngster’s musical education by teaching scales and to read music is too mechanical. He believes that it is more important for a novice to learn what a given note will sound like than to know how to read the note. He therefore focuses on connecting his students to the music by having them listen to the music they will play so they can hear what it sounds like."
That's pretty much standard practice for elementary music these days, "sound before sight." It's not how I was taught back in the day, but it's how I teach my young students now.
johntarr wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:55 pm A book by jazz pianist, Kenny Werner called, “Effortless Mastery” addresses this topic very thoroughly. He invites, or sometimes chides the reader to consider the idea of learning to get her/his ego out of the way. This too is something that needs to be practiced, just like scales and arpeggios.
That's a good book, and it mirrors Hal Crook's approach. I've lost my copy years ago, but as I recall Werner suggests breaking things up into different topics and removing your focus on certain things so that you can concentrate (in part) on making your playing feel effortless. For example, you remove time feel and note accuracy from your focus so you can concentrate of playing in a relaxed way, then gradually add something back and remove something else to keep your focus on one topic (plus playing in a relaxed way) at a time.

My last thought for now is that if you're a relative beginner with improvisation it's really helpful to get a teacher (or even just a peer) to help evaluate and prioritize what you want to practice. Can you imagine trying to learn how to play excellent symphonic trombone just from books and recordings? You need someone to help you find those topics that you need to improve first on and give you suggestions for how to go about that. Just like orchestral trombone playing, it's not always the best players who are best able to help relative beginners, so seek out a teacher who you is able to break things down into what you need. Some teachers may be great if you've got a bit of experience under your belt, but not so great if you're new to it.

Dave
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Bach5G »

“ ... remove time feel and note accuracy from your focus...”

I hear a fair amount of that in trombone solos.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Pre59 »

Get some jazz education video material, for beautifully bite sized lessons, You don't have to be guitarist or pianist to understand it all in the early stages.

"The Power of the Major Scale"

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvi ... scale.html
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by johntarr »

Wilktone wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:59 am Very interesting conversation here, with lots of great advice. My two cents, however, is that there's so much involved in learning to improvisation that there's too much information out there and this can inhibit our improvement. In many ways, learning to improvise is like learning to juggle. Here are a couple of similarities.

...

My last thought for now is that if you're a relative beginner with improvisation it's really helpful to get a teacher (or even just a peer) to help evaluate and prioritize what you want to practice. Can you imagine trying to learn how to play excellent symphonic trombone just from books and recordings? You need someone to help you find those topics that you need to improve first on and give you suggestions for how to go about that. Just like orchestral trombone playing, it's not always the best players who are best able to help relative beginners, so seek out a teacher who you is able to break things down into what you need. Some teachers may be great if you've got a bit of experience under your belt, but not so great if you're new to it.

Dave
Thanks Dave, for such a thoughtful and informative post!
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Savio »

I think I could do the "learn to improvise" part, the "so I don't suck" part is the problem. Ok just a joke but there is some truth to it. How about creativity, its like composing on the fly? And doing a good composition? I did listen to J.J Johnson, it sounds so natural and easy. Like it couldnt be any different. Must be some talent too?

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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Perhaps it's time for us to watch "The Music Man" again to see how it's done. But I don't think we should then pick up our horns and try to improv on Desafinado! :lol:
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Bach5G »

This showed up in my email this morning. It’s from Mike Lake and it’s about starting to improvise.


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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by imsevimse »

Bach5G wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:27 pm This showed up in my email this morning. It’s from Mike Lake and it’s about starting to improvise.
That videoclip was real good and it got me inspired.

There is one thing to this sentence "How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?" that we haven't discussed at all and thats what it really means? "...so I don't suck? Is it aimed at the audience or at me who is the improviser? Is it based on thoughts I have about the demands that the audience may have?

I think the healthiest is to focus on the "I" in this case. It is I as a player who do not want to feel bad. I should not focus on the audience and what they think. I must play the way I want and that may result in the audience do not want to hear me. When we improvise the "I" is what is important. If nobody likes it you will not have the opportunity to play much in public but you can still be successful in your studio.

I remember in my teens when I studied and was in the same band as a player that was going to be one of the most well regarded improvisers on the saxophone over here. He took a lot of solos back then. The band director let him play as much as he wanted and I remember I thought it all "sucked". It just repeated itself over and over and left me exhausted and drained of life itself. I really did not like it. It was the same with a couple of other guys, but they never got passed theat stage and are not heard of.

I myself could not play a solo at that time and did not have the guts to even try but he did. About five years later he was the star of the town and now another 25 years later he is one of the most sought after players and last I checked he has done several solo recordings. He did play what he wanted to play, and that was what was important at the time. Later he just evolved and took off. He never played what he thought the audience would like to hear. Never did

/Tom
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Bach5G wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:27 pm This showed up in my email this morning. It’s from Mike Lake and it’s about starting to improvise.

And right on queue!

Get the notes from the head to the horn via the voice (at first), keep it simple and melodic to start with. Perfect!

However, unlike in the movie "The Music Man", advocating "The Think System", I believe he assumes all the homework advocated by others on playing scales, intervals, chords, ear-training, etc has already been done.

Last evening, I set up my Band-in-a-Box to cycle through ballads a number of times, each time separated by a virtual soloist for 16 bars. The first time through, I played the melody pretty straight-forward to acquaint myself with it's pattern. The second time through, I actually stood up and moved in front of my station, as though stepping up to play a solo in a real setting. Without any music, I tried to make a nice solo, based on what I could remember of the melody line and it's rhythmic pattern, listening to the chord progressions in the backing track. Then I sat back down for the third pass to play the melody line again, but this time trying to embellish it with what I learned from playing through it and listening to everything the first two times. Interesting! On some, I did well. On others, not so much. It seems, some melodies and chord progressions are "easier" than others. It's a start.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by baileyman »

Bach5G wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:39 pm “ ... remove time feel and note accuracy from your focus...”

I hear a fair amount of that in trombone solos.
Yup. A maniacal focus on time feel seems like job one, no matter how one breaks up the rest of it for practice. It's funny/distressing even doing quarter notes at a bounce tempo how after 8 to 12 of them suddenly the time has gone. How the heck?

Max Bennett answered to me, How do you start a young bass player? Single note quarter notes on a metronome, usually for weeks. Time is everything.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Wilktone »

Bach5G wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:39 pm “ ... remove time feel and note accuracy from your focus...”

I hear a fair amount of that in trombone solos.
So I know you're only half-serious (I think), but I want to point out that there's a huge difference between how you practice and how you perform. The point Hall Crook and Kenny Werner (and by extension, me) are making is that when you are first working on new topics that you can't already play you need to expect some other things to also suffer while you split your attention. That's fine, you'll spend time working to improve those in your practice later.
Pre59 wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:48 pm Get some jazz education video material, for beautifully bite sized lessons, You don't have to be guitarist or pianist to understand it all in the early stages.

"The Power of the Major Scale"

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvi ... scale.html
Right, it's the same 12 notes.
Savio wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:25 pm I think I could do the "learn to improvise" part, the "so I don't suck" part is the problem. Ok just a joke but there is some truth to it. How about creativity, its like composing on the fly? And doing a good composition? I did listen to J.J Johnson, it sounds so natural and easy. Like it couldnt be any different. Must be some talent too?
Sure, talent has something to do with it. Also perseverance and hard work. As far as "composing on the fly," this is an accurate depiction of improvisation, but you might also consider that learning to improvise shares a lot more in common with learning to sight read well.

You can get better at sight reading by just sight reading a lot, but if you don't go back and fix the mistakes you make you're not going to improve at sight reading as quickly. Sight reading well involves learning how to play those melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic patterns correctly so that when you see that pattern again you know how to play it accurately. Improvisation is similar, yet like with sight reading it's easy to get into just doing a lot of it in performance mode. You've got to practice fixing your mistakes. This is why I suggested recording yourself improvising and then transcribing what you played. You then get the opportunity to practice fixing your mistakes and learning to play what you meant to play.
Bach5G wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:27 pm This showed up in my email this morning. It’s from Mike Lake and it’s about starting to improvise.
Good stuff in there. I might quibble with some details for raw beginners, but like what ArbanRubank said, I think he's presuming that you've done some of your homework. Note the difference between Mike Lake's example of using a scale to improvise (as an example of what NOT to do) compared to the jazz guitar one from early. Essentially the same exercise, but the guitarist demonstrates how to use the notes of the major scale to great musical effect and Lake demonstrates (on purpose) the way beginners often approach it.

When practicing a topic, such as scale/chord relationships, you should strive to really explore that idea. When you've reach the point of where you can improvise expressively over just a major scale, then you know that those sounds will be available to you when you are letting your inner ear dictate where you should go. Restriction (in practice) is actually quite liberating.
baileyman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:00 am A maniacal focus on time feel seems like job one, no matter how one breaks up the rest of it for practice.
I agree. It's one of the first topics in Hal Crook's book and he essentially says the same thing. I still agree with Crook that learning the pacing (play/rest) is a better way to start. It's very helpful when working on any other concept, including time feel, to be able to comfortably stop playing and do some self evaluation and prep yourself for what's about to come up.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by Bach5G »

I completed my first transcription in quite a while today: Chet Baker’s 16 bar scat solo in It Could Happen to You. It was assigned by my guitar teacher. Not a crazy amount of notes but Chet’s pitch and time called for a bit of interpretation occasionally.

I used an phone app called Transcribe+. Remarkable technology and, frankly, not very expensive. In some respects it was easier than I expected. I certainly can see the value in doing this on a regular basis. This would make a good retirement project.
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Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

Post by baileyman »

Wilktone wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:07 pm ...
baileyman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:00 am A maniacal focus on time feel seems like job one, no matter how one breaks up the rest of it for practice.
I agree. It's one of the first topics in Hal Crook's book and he essentially says the same thing. I still agree with Crook that learning the pacing (play/rest) is a better way to start. It's very helpful when working on any other concept, including time feel, to be able to comfortably stop playing and do some self evaluation and prep yourself for what's about to come up.
If I recall Hal's play/rest included exercises like, play two measures, rest two, repeat, and every variation on that idea, like, play one, rest three, play two beats, rest six, whatever, but all this in time, so the rest is also in time. Play the rests, they're music, too.

He also does a time stretching exercise, but it sure seems worthwhile to first be recognized for having strong time feel before messing around with something that otherwise sounds like a big error. Most tromboners start on time, time stretch for four, take a breath, then start the next four on time, etc.
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