Perception of loudness

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AndrewMeronek
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Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

This is more the domain of audio engineers, but I think this falls under a "music theory" unbrella as well:

I'm looking for info on how humans generally perceive loudness, for my own curiosity. My impulse started with wondering why it seems like the worst culprits for uncontrollable stage volume seems to be electric keyboard players, followed (perhaps) by electric bass players. Why electric keyboard players? I have my suspicions:

Lack of change in timbre with a change in loudness, due amps being designed specifically to not change in tone across a wide range of volumes.
Lack of change in timbre with a change in loudness inspired by how hard a key is hit.
My suspicion that a change in timbre is part of how our brains help to interpret a change in volume.
A common practice of modulating the overtones of the amp's output (i.e., reducing mids or highs, etc.) which makes the sound worse at blending with acoustic instruments.

The closest thing I've found so far is ITU-R 468 noise weighting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITU-R_4 ... _znNV_Z2wM

but it's not quite the same as what I'm talking about here. Still pretty interesting, though. It appears to be designed to measure noise in circuits, and incorporates human perception by frequency and length of tone in noise. As opposed to A-weighting, which apparently is based on pure tones (sine waves): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

Thus, neither metric seems to be designed to measure the perceived loudness of musical pitched tones.
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Pre59
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by Pre59 »

In the case of the bass gtr, it's often the player is not cutting the low mid frequencies which are close to the low end of the tbns and saxes. The notes therefore punch through the band rather than under it like the traditional double bass sound would . Ironically, the tone shaping capabilities of modern amps and cabs has never been better, and a simple cut around 350 hz, coupled with a slight bass and treble lift puts the bass back under the band with a little clarity from the treble end. The modern flat sound, "bass through volume" never works in a big band setting IMO.

Here's some more reading.. https://geoffthegreygeek.com/amplifier-power/
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Pre59 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:31 am In the case of the bass gtr, it's often the player is not cutting the low mid frequencies which are close to the low end of the tbns and saxes. The notes therefore punch through the band rather than under it like the traditional double bass sound would . Ironically, the tone shaping capabilities of modern amps and cabs has never been better, and a simple cut around 350 hz, coupled with a slight bass and treble lift puts the bass back under the band with a little clarity from the treble end. The modern flat sound, "bass through volume" never works in a big band setting IMO.

Here's some more reading.. https://geoffthegreygeek.com/amplifier-power/
Makes sense. That site gives a nice general explanation for people who don't want to dive as deep into the studies, although there's no mention of different hearing response by frequency ranges.

I think that in terms of the bass, the biggest contributing factor is described in both the ITU-R 468 weighting and the A-weighting: lesser response to the same amplitude for lower frequencies in human hearing. Many people expect a bass at the same perceived volume to balance a mid-range instrument like a trumpet at the same perceived volume, when the actual amplitude of the bass under these circumstances is much greater due to the perception error. The bass needs to be quieter to be balanced.
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea that a traditional double bass sound has weak 350Hz-range frequencies. I think it floats underneath a big band because it's quieter, not because it has a strong fundamental with few overtones.
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Pre59
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by Pre59 »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:56 am I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea that a traditional double bass sound has weak 350Hz-range frequencies. I think it floats underneath a big band because it's quieter, not because it has a strong fundamental with few overtones.
I didn't say that a the DB has weak frequencies, I said that to get a bass gtr to sit in big band to eq it in a particular way. The Bass guitar has much stronger fundamentals that a DB, so reduce them and lift the bass and treble a little.
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Pre59 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:23 pm
AndrewMeronek wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:56 am I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea that a traditional double bass sound has weak 350Hz-range frequencies. I think it floats underneath a big band because it's quieter, not because it has a strong fundamental with few overtones.
I didn't say that a the DB has weak frequencies, I said that to get a bass gtr to sit in big band to eq it in a particular way. The Bass guitar has much stronger fundamentals that a DB, so reduce them and lift the bass and treble a little.
Ah, I misread: I thought you were just talking about an upright with an amp. Gotcha.
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

In my experience, the bass guitar also has much less pronounced attacks than an upright bass (except perhaps for slap techniques) which also affects the perceived loudness, especially in music that has a lot of articulations and not a lot of space to let a tone ring, like standard jazz walking bass.
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Pre59
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by Pre59 »

Depending on how the bass is set up, and the choice of strings etc, you can have masses of sustain and attack on a modern instrument.
So my theory as to why the DB "swings" better than the B Gtr, is.. There's a delay between the initial string attack and the sound leaving the body, so to play good time you have to play ever so slightly ahead (milliseconds) of the beat to get the bass component in the pocket, and its the "thunk" or "snap" of the leading edge, plus the deep warm tone that creates the satisfying result.

RE keyboards,

I believe that it takes ten times the energy to double the volume, so with ten fingers and a touch sensitive keyboard, the dynamic range is huge, even before involving the volume controls on the keyboard and its' amp.
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paulyg
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by paulyg »

It's fairly common knowledge that human hearing is more biased towards higher frequencies. Those weighting schemes take this into account.

The simple answer to why electronically-amplified instruments tend to be the worst offenders is that it is physically very easy to turn a knob for additional volume. For acoustic instruments, it is physically demanding to play loud. Electronic speakers can also be set up so that the sound is more directional than an acoustic instrument, meaning that the keyboardist/bassist is isolated from the downrange effects of their idiocy.
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baileyman
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by baileyman »

Yes to loudness being perceived by change in timbre. But the listener has to learn quiet timbre to perceive loud.

It seems to my ears that the problem with most of the amped instruments is that they drone. They cannot adequately play rhythm. Someone said the attack of an electric bass is weak. I think it is more that the decay is weak, so it drones. Acoustic bass strings spend a lot of energy wiggling the box. Electric bass strings only wiggle over the pickups. A friend has put a layer of foam under his bridge end of the strings to try to add decay for his electric upright, and it seems to help. Acoustic piano does the same thing, rapid decay. As a result, quarter notes from these instruments seem to have a natural swing.

Anyway, a piano player I play with when asked if he can turn it down said once, But I can't hear myself! He was by then the loudest instrument in the band by far. I suspect an acoustic would ping more strongly for him. But this seems to be a losing battle.

I have taken to wearing -9 dB earplugs, and these allow me to hear my horn great, and not wince from the amped and the trumpets. Yet I can still hear all the other players. It is good to have some sort of peace on the subject.
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

baileyman wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:59 pm Anyway, a piano player I play with when asked if he can turn it down said once, But I can't hear myself! He was by then the loudest instrument in the band by far. I suspect an acoustic would ping more strongly for him. But this seems to be a losing battle.
In my experience, this happens when their amp is placed on the ground, in a place where they don't get direct feedback from it. Try placing their amp on a chair next to them, pointed at them.
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Pre59
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by Pre59 »

Full disclosure, I've been a bassist since the early '70's, on the Bass Gtr and the Double Bass having played in many commercial music settings including Big Bands.
The DB has now gone and I'm left with two bass guitars and 3 trombones.

A standard practice on the bass gtr, is muting the strings, and there are at least three ways. On the left hand by lifting the finger off the note but leaving it touching the string. On the RH, touching the string after the attack, and holding the palm over the strings for a muted sound. A piece of foam can be put under the string at the bridge end to reduce the harmonics and shorten the the note lengths. This was common in the early days of recording when compressors were expensive and the bass part was being ramped up in the mix.
Having said all that, if your bassist's main instrument is set up to play in a funk/slap manner, and he never listens to any other type of music, it's never going to work..

Blame the musician, not the instrument.
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

baileyman wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:59 pm Yes to loudness being perceived by change in timbre.
I'd like to see some codification of this beyond musicians' experiences. Studies, etc.
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Pre59 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:40 am Blame the musician, not the instrument.
Indeed.

In my experience, upright bass players at least are not usually bad culprits for loud on-stage volumes. Electric bass players, moreso, although still not as much as electric keyboard players. The phenomenon is especially annoying in tunes that use quiet cup muted passages in the brass, and people simply don't moderate their own volumes to match. Well, that, beyond just plain unpleasant volumes produced by people who are totally not listening to the group. When I bring it up in a rehearsal, the band plays it again and the problem isn't fixed, I have to think there's more going on than just people not paying attention, though.
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baileyman
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by baileyman »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:26 pm
baileyman wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:59 pm Anyway, a piano player I play with when asked if he can turn it down said once, But I can't hear myself! He was by then the loudest instrument in the band by far. I suspect an acoustic would ping more strongly for him. But this seems to be a losing battle.
In my experience, this happens when their amp is placed on the ground, in a place where they don't get direct feedback from it. Try placing their amp on a chair next to them, pointed at them.
Had been already done!
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by AndrewMeronek »

baileyman wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:07 am
AndrewMeronek wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:26 pm

In my experience, this happens when their amp is placed on the ground, in a place where they don't get direct feedback from it. Try placing their amp on a chair next to them, pointed at them.
Had been already done!
Then the next thing that seems to be relevant here is to make sure they're "zeroing" their amp settings. See if a change in timbre helps. Some keyboards have internal settings, too. If this ends up affecting things, I'd be interested to hear your observations.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

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Pre59
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Re: Perception of loudness

Post by Pre59 »

Keyboard players spend most of their lives being the largest part of a musicial group, and they often struggle with being just a sixteenth part of a big band.
The "touch" of a keyboard is easily adjusted to allow for the differences between a real and electric one. Most keyboards default to a easy showroom one, which has a significant effect on the tonal balance.
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