Engaging your abs

[ttf_Discoralph12]

Greetings Everybody,

           When playing trombone does anyone engage their abs? I'm not talking about using the abs to articulate but I mean having the stomach help with keeping the air consistent throughout a phrase.

Best,
Alex

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Somewhat - depends on the range and volume.

[ttf_DaveBb]

A lot has been said about using the diaphragm and stomach.

A recent post describing Jay Friedman's approach discourages it...

Quote from: trb420 on Apr 14, 2017, 05:26PM he said he uses his chest rather than his stomach, as the moment the stomach engages, tension is created.

[ttf_Andrew Meronek]

I do at times, but the thing about "engaging the abs" is similar to all aspects of the physicality of playing music: only apply the minimal work necessary to achieve what you want. So, when I do end up using my abdominal muscles to help exhalation, it is *ONLY* to breathe harder and is never opposed by anything else in my body that doesn't need to be in the way. Specifically, anything that creates resistance for my abs to push against - do not create artificial resistance just to engage your abs more. You're just creating unnecessary work, increasing tension, and generally making music harder to play, not easier.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Every player's body, and their sensation of it, is different.  What someone thinks they're doing is not necessarily what they're actually doing. 

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

I'd be afraid of putting too much tension into my body while playing. Ian Bousfield has some great ideas about breathing vs blowing, and tension in playing. He thinks it shouldn't be much different from normal breathing.

I'd also be worried about accidentally and spontaneously donating something unmusical if I engaged my abs during a performance.

[ttf_Exzaclee]

Yes, i do (or have)

and I have hemorrhoids like you wouldn't believe.

Don't overdo it.

[ttf_CJ]

During relaxed breathing (including when you take a large breath), the elastic recoil of the thorax increases air pressure in the lungs and air is pushed out.  If you increase resistance (lips, mouthpiece, trombone) this pressure is still sufficient to move air out albeit at a slower rate of flow.

Engaging the abs are the primary way we forcefully exhale.  If you require a greater rate of flow then you need to increase abdominal pressure in order to push the diaphragm up and increase thoracic pressure.  There are thoracic muscles that help in forceful expiration, but they are minor compared to the power of the abdominal muscles.  Think about when you cough or sneeze... you're engaging your abs to pressurize the abdomen to expel air forcefully.

So when you play the trombone you can do so without your abs if you only utilize the elastic recoil of your thorax, but if you need more power then you use the abs.

[ttf_Discoralph12]

What if I'm using this engaging my abs to help strengthen my corners? Seems like I have more success with slow lip slurs if I think about engaging my abs and then my corners stay put. Does that change anything?


Best,
Alex

[ttf_bigbassbone1]

Quote from: Discoralph12 on Nov 02, 2017, 09:37AMWhat if I'm using this engaging my abs to help strengthen my corners? Seems like I have more success with slow lip slurs if I think about engaging my abs and then my corners stay put. Does that change anything?


Best,
Alex

Each player is different, and you might have some success playing this way...

I think you should probably think about it differently though.... perhaps practice getting all the benefits you think you are getting with the LEAST amount of abdominal tension you can get away with? Do it, but gradually go less and less until you lose your benefits from it. Then the next day, try and use even less.

I just think that practicing tension like that will most likely cause other issues later on that you probably are not aware of right now. The reality is that whilst some engagement is required in that area, it simply does not need to be any more than what occurs "naturally". Why add something to your playing process that simply isn't necessary? There are so many other areas of trombone playing that require focus, it just doesn't make sense to add something that will only distract you from more important areas.

[ttf_Ryebone]

The Principle of Least Effort applies. That is always an individual variable. Add to that..Awareness Procedes Control...If we could experience an upright posture without an abdominal stabilizing system, I assure all of us we would opt to keep them attached. Understand they are always on when we maintain any effort at verticality. That is the resting tone that is individually variable and trainable to work 'better'. Getting the volume and velocity of air necessary to play at a MF requires all manner of diaphragmatic co-ordination between all three functional diaphragms..abdominal, pelvic and larynx pharynx (oro-facial mechanisms). There should ideally be a global synergy that supports this function. Compromise any link in this kinetic chain and it will eventually surface as a hiccup that might touch performance.

[ttf_CJ]

Quote from: Discoralph12 on Nov 02, 2017, 09:37AMWhat if I'm using this engaging my abs to help strengthen my corners? Seems like I have more success with slow lip slurs if I think about engaging my abs and then my corners stay put. Does that change anything?


Best,
Alex

 Sort of like lifting your eyebrows to hit the high notes?    There’s no connection between your abs and the corners of your mouth. But whatever floats your boat

[ttf_baileyman]

Seems like practicing using thorasic recoil alone would be useful, though as of this morning the range available that way seem pretty small.  For breath attacks, I can feel the abs quickly engage, and the abs give me full range.  I would like to hear of other ways to do this but I cannot imagine one. 

[ttf_ntap]

In the past few weeks I have been doing yoga a lot more regularly, and I had a somewhat of a breakthrough with breath the other day.  I managed to take a truly deep breath into my whole torso, right into the lowest part of my pelvis. It was one of those breaths that feels thirst quenching.  Later that evening I able to engage that air column when I played, and had a lot more control over air support, thus volume, range, and all the things we as trombonists need to do with our air.  Blend was easier and my sound was much more present.   There was no "effort" in pushing the air into my horn as long as I visualized it coming from the bottom of my pelvis and torso.  I found I had much more control vs. when I utilize "shallow" air coming from my chest and throat.  I know some people advocate the lungs expanding sideways into the chest, but that has always left me with tension in my shoulders and sometimes neck.  

I'm a firm believer that many of us store tension in the way we breathe (I know I do), and learning how to breathe relaxed and full can really help alleviate a lot of that tension, (and at the risk of sounding esoteric) regardless of where it exists in your life.  

Anyway....this post wasn't totally related to the OP's point, but I think it's a bit relevant.  I'm sure I engage my abs when I play, but I really try not to think about it too much and just focus on air moving through the horn/the music that's (hopefully) coming out of it.

[ttf_timothy42b]

I don't deliberately engage abs.

I have noticed that when I play, they engage to some extent on their own. 

There was a school of thought years ago that you should tense them like you were expecting a punch.  That doesn't seem necessary to me, but maybe there's some special application.

I saw the mention that Jay Friedman teaches to relax them.  I tried that and it works; I'm not sure there's much difference. 

Someone on the FB said she teaches her students the abs should engage as if you were putting your hand on them - just that amount of activation. 

[ttf_Torobone]

I don't engage my abs per se. At times I become aware of the need for more air support, and in supply that air, I use my abs to support my air stream. It becomes a natural thing to do.

On overdoing it, I met a trumpet teacher who had his students doing sit-ups to develop their abs. What a waste of time!

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: Exzaclee on Nov 02, 2017, 06:06AM

...and I have hemorrhoids like you wouldn't believe.



Thanks for that, this tune popped into my head. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlx6gQWfjp0

[ttf_Andrew Meronek]

Quote from: Torobone on Nov 11, 2017, 04:31PMOn overdoing it, I met a trumpet teacher who had his students doing sit-ups to develop their abs. What a waste of time!

That's not a waste of time. Trumpets have more resistance, so they will tend to apply more force than we do, at least in their upper register.

Although, I'm not a fan of sit-ups. Planks are much better.

[ttf_Torobone]

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 12, 2017, 06:41AMThat's not a waste of time. Trumpets have more resistance, so they will tend to apply more force than we do, at least in their upper register.

Although, I'm not a fan of sit-ups. Planks are much better.

My feeling is that sit-ups are a solution looking for a problem in this case. As a brass player, resistance on the face should lead to the need for geater ab support. It should be apparent if the support is sufficient or not.

Of course, I have done ab work in the past, so maybe I don't have a problem due to my relative fitness.

[ttf_Andrew Meronek]

Also of note in this thread is that the infamous "trumpet player passing out after a high note" is most definitely caused by excessive tension in the body, including over-engaging the abs. If you get to a loud high note that does require that kind of abdominal force, you better be relaxed in the rest of your body or you risk the same.

[ttf_bonenick]

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 12, 2017, 09:17AMAlso of note in this thread is that the infamous "trumpet player passing out after a high note" is most definitely caused by excessive tension in the body,

Depending on the context. From what I know it is rather caused by overbreathing (too much oxigen in the brain)
 Passing after such a chart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8QQoLMBkE0

would be hardly a surprise.

To me compression bith in the lungs and in the mouth+control and efficient body use seem to be the answer (may be somewhat different depending on our own make up).

[ttf_sabutin]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 01, 2017, 07:20PMSomewhat - depends on the range and volume.

Precisely.

Range-higher ranges produce more resistance. More resistance needs more "support" from wherever you think that it is emanating in your body.

Volume-louder volumes require more air. More air also calls for more support.

Add to this:

The overall resistance of the equipment. Smaller overall equipment requires more force behind the air to drive it into the horn than does overall larger, less resistant equipment. Also, the closer to the chops, the more import size has on resistance. This "resistance" thing also includes the embouchure itself and the whole tongue/vocal cavity situation.

Add in individual air capacities and clearly this is not a pat, cut-and-dried problem. I personally play a great deal of fairly loud, fairly high music on fairly small equipment, and when playing in those general ranges on that equipment I find that I do not generally need to "think" much about my support until I get up above say 10th partial C#. My abdominal muscles are engaged up to there, but not with any great force. After that range? I need to consciously engage my abdominals...or maybe now not so consciously because I have pretty welltrained my body to react reflexively.

In the lower ranges they are almost never engaged at that level. Of course, if I were to be playing...to be capable of playing...at some of the low range volumes of great power bass trombonists and tubists, I suppose my story might be quite different.

Long story short?

Try everything and believe no one without proving things out for yourself. Find what works...for you...and then learn how to make it reflexive.

Over and out...

S.

[ttf_sabutin]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 01, 2017, 07:20PMSomewhat - depends on the range and volume.

Precisely.

Range-higher ranges produce more resistance. More resistance needs more "support" from wherever you think that it is emanating in your body.

Volume-louder volumes require more air. More air also calls for more support.

Add to this:

The overall resistance of the equipment. Smaller overall equipment requires more force behind the air to drive it into the horn than does overall larger, less resistant equipment. Also, the closer to the chops, the more import size has on resistance. This "resistance" thing also includes the embouchure itself and the whole tongue/vocal cavity situation.

Add in individual air capacities and clearly this is not a pat, cut-and-dried problem. I personally play a great deal of fairly loud, fairly high music on fairly small equipment, and when playing in those general ranges on that equipment I find that I do not generally need to "think" much about my support until I get up above say 10th partial C#. My abdominal muscles are engaged up to there, but not with any great force. After that range? I need to consciously engage my abdominals...or maybe now not so consciously because I have pretty welltrained my body to react reflexively.

In the lower ranges they are almost never engaged at that level. Of course, if I were to be playing...to be capable of playing...at some of the low range volumes of great power bass trombonists and tubists, I suppose my story might be quite different.

Long story short?

Try everything and believe no one without proving things out for yourself. Find what works...for you...and then learn how to make it reflexive.

Over and out...

S.