Studying composition with or without a teacher

ttf_Lance Handsome
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_Lance Handsome »

"Are you writing with the intent of adhering to some formal considerations?  how it looks on paper?
or are you putting to paper what you hear in your head?"

Definitely the latter. Many times, I've wished for some way to attach electrodes to my forehead and think the music onto paper, rather than try to type it into Finale and have it evaporate in mid-phrase.

I never considered myself as having a problem melodically, although mine tend to be slow-moving rather than sprightly and I'm plagued by the urge to keep constant motion; it's difficult for me to write rests, as I desire a continuous flow. Everything seems to be quarters and eighths, too, as sixteenths somehow rarely seem appropriate. Perhaps that's the influence of my many years as a choral singer.

As for multiple teachers, that's usually not an option. Up here in ROME, NY, I wonder if there are any composers at all.  Image

No, it's eluding me how others manage to write exciting, engaging music that people want to perform. With me, audiences mostly seem to like my stuff, but conductors and performers roll their eyes and ask, "Have you any IDEA how long this would take to rehearse?" Then they program something that sounds like cats in heat, only not as good. Let's just say the feedback from most of the composition teachers I've tried has not been encouraging, which is why I asked in the first place if one either "has it" or doesn't. To be sure, not everybody is a musical genius, but every time I try to think outside the Bachs, I wonder whether the effort is showing.
ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_Andrew Meronek »

Aside from finding composition teachers, your next best option is to put up charts and recordings (if you can get them) online and ask for frank feedback.

It eludes a lot of people how some manage to write exciting, engaging music that people want to perform.  Me included, and I'm trying to figure out how to solve that problem.   Image I can write pretty good melodies and interesting harmonies; my problem is large-scale structure: how to have a piece of music have an understandable emotional message with good transitions between sections and effective climaxes.

You just gotta hammer away at your weaknesses and find ways of solving them.

BTW, some people have success by recording themselves playing or singing before writing down their melodies.  Others can write melodies without that step but have a hard time coming up with background structure, so they sketch out the entire form of the piece with melodies and generalized comments before fleshing pieces out.  Try lots of different approaches.


ttf_Lance Handsome
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_Lance Handsome »

>>them) online and ask for frank feedback.

Here, you mean? Dunno if I want to do that. The embarrassment factor is quite high.

>>interesting harmonies; my problem is large-scale structure: how to have a piece of music have an understandable >>emotional message with good transitions between sections and effective climaxes.

That's the 800 lb. gorilla in the room, isn't it? Someone years ago told me, "Your pieces always fall apart in the middle," which unfortunately was not followed up with any kind of specific example and remains difficult for me to accept. I've heard any number of pieces that seem to have the same problem, e.g. the Bartok viola concerto. I heard it the other day for the first time in decades, and while it was an old friend, the extremely fragmented nature of the piece struck me as never before. I realize that it was assembled from sketches Bartok had made before his death, but it seemed to lurch from one idea to another in short order and I could not perceive much rhyme or reason for it. Yet there must be some underlying structure to the piece, even if I can't perceive one. Compare and contrast with my brass piece, of which the teacher said, "At the end of the piece, I didn't know how I'd gotten there." He's a successful composer, so if anyone could have detected the structure of my piece, he could have...especially as it's a tone poem and I gave him the program beforehand. Or another piece, hacked nearly to death by the pianist at a composer's group concert. Someone told me afterwards "That was GORGEOUS!" A friend from back home, quoting one of his innumerable relatives, was less kind: "It sounds like scribbles." One man's meat is another man's poison, but I'd have thought the laws of physics would not permit something to be both GORGEOUS and scribbles. Such extremes of perception leave me scratching my bald head.
ttf_JamesKazik
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_JamesKazik »

Heh.  Criticism.  Here's a book you should read:

"Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers Since Beethoven's Time" by Nicolas Slonimsky.

Don't put too much stock in what teachers say.  Listen to what they say, then take it or leave it.  Their word isn't the gospel truth.  Listen to your gut.

If you're serious about it, just do it.  Trial and error.  It's going to be tough when things don't go well, but when they go right, it'll be great.  Get over the embarrassment factor; I know guys who have been doing it professionally for years, and it's still nerve-wracking hearing something read for the first time, it is for me too.  It's a learning process, and it may take your whole life.

Don't over-think it, just get out there and do it.
ttf_BGuttman
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_BGuttman »

It's easy to say "that stinks".  It's easy to say "I don't like it".

When those comments come with some backup arguments it forms a way to deal with it.

There is the old joke: "What do you do with a drummer who can't keep the beat?  Take away one stick and make him a conductor.  Still can't keep a beat?  Take away the other stick and make him a critic."

Anybody who asks to have something critiqued deserves more than just "great" or "awful".  They deserve an analysis of why you think it's great or awful.

The problem with trying to learn arranging or composing on your own is frequently that lack of constructive feedback.

And don't assume that the feedback is automatically correct.  Wagner parodied some of the critics of his day in the person of Sixtus Beckmesser in his opera "Die Meistersinger".  Beckmesser is so busy applying rules he can't hear the genius.

ttf_Lance Handsome
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_Lance Handsome »

Hmm...Since you're being so kind, I've decided to post a piece, but it's one I don't esteem and feel cannot be fixed. It was intended to be part of a suite for brass quintet.
ttf_knuxie35
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Post by ttf_knuxie35 »

 I hear the Muse.  I listen to the Muse.  I trust the Muse. 'Nuff said.

Your mileage may vary...

Ken F.
ttf_Lance Handsome
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Post by ttf_Lance Handsome »

Quote from: knuxie35 on Feb 12, 2011, 09:50PM I hear the Muse.  I listen to the Muse.  I trust the Muse. 'Nuff said.

Your mileage may vary...

Ken F.

I've suggested to various pastors that they preach a sermon called "Individual Results May Vary."
ttf_anonymous
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Image  Image
I read through the postings of this long discussion and found that something is missing about composing.  I know it is hard to believe as long as this posting is.  I did not see anything about transcribing music.  I started as a copiest for my brother when he was writing.  There were no computers then so it was all by hand.  He would give me his scores and I would transcribe the parts out.  This showed me a lot about theory, form, and note distribution.  I then started to transcribe recorded music.  This then trained my ear and it taught me the ways of the composer.  I think this is more of concept that jazz musicians used most but it will work for anyone.  If you want to write like Bach then transcribe Bach's music.  If you want to write like Stravinsky then transcribe it out.  I think just analyzing their music is not enough although that is important.  Coming up with the chord progression is the easy part.  Making it sound great by using the right note distribution is the hard part.  Percy Grainger and Gustav Holst both wrote for bands and orchestras but they sound different because of how they distributed the notes of the chords to each instrument.  Chords are chords but who plays the notes creates the unique timbre of each composer.  I would think that whether you have a teacher or not transcribing music from recordings is a must to learn to be a good composer.

Keep on Playing!
ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Post by ttf_Andrew Meronek »

Has transcribing not been mentioned?

Perhaps not.

I do know that it has been mentioned in other threads. And, yes, I completely agree that transcribing is much more valuable than the normal score analysis.

I remember a Quincy Jones interview in which he described his first lesson with the famous composition instructor Nadia Boulanger. His first project was to transcribe and transpose the first page of the score of "Daphnis and Chloe" into all 12 keys.
ttf_Lance Handsome
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_Lance Handsome »

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Mar 22, 2011, 01:55AMBoulanger. His first project was to transcribe and transpose the first page of the score of "Daphnis and Chloe" into all 12 keys.

Now I don't feel so bad that I never studied with Nadia Boulanger.

Seriously, though: All 12 keys? Of what possible use is that? It wasn't until I saw the score of "The Planets" that I discovered how Holst had obtained the organ-like sound of certain chords, but I realized that through looking at the score, not writing out the parts 12 times.
ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_Andrew Meronek »

Quote from: Lance Handsome on Mar 22, 2011, 08:25AMNow I don't feel so bad that I never studied with Nadia Boulanger.

Seriously, though: All 12 keys? Of what possible use is that? It wasn't until I saw the score of "The Planets" that I discovered how Holst had obtained the organ-like sound of certain chords, but I realized that through looking at the score, not writing out the parts 12 times.

It's primarily an orchestration exercise. Transposing keys also moves instruments into different ranges, forcing one to revoice some chords, as well as having to deal with some technical considerations of certain instruments. And to do so while retaining the flavor of the original. This can be challenging in modernistic pieces like Daphnis and Chloe because of the full use of instrumental range to attain specific tambral colors.
ttf_Exzaclee
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Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

not to mention, transposing something as harrowing as daphnis and chloe through all 12 keys is a good shortcut to learning how to think  in all keys equally.  it's kind of the same with how we "teach" jazz - or any form of music for that matter. 

teach fluency in all 12 keys.  then you've taught fluency in this language.  to some extent, anyway...
ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

The only way to get better as a composer is to write and hear what you have written.  Then go back and write more.  Every time you hear good musicians play your work, you are going to learn a lot more from that than from what any book will teach you.  I'm always amazed how much better my students get from just writing, hearing their work played and then going back and re-writing.  Even the best teacher isn't a substitute for that type of training.
ttf_digitaltrombone
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Post by ttf_digitaltrombone »

Trial and error
Spend as much time as possible doing it
Common sense
Transcribe stuff you like (both chords, melodies and orchestration)

Go for it!

Cheers

ttf_Ladiesman
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Post by ttf_Ladiesman »

Quote from: Exzaclee on Dec 04, 2010, 07:18AMUsually, not always, but usually, when i have a student who's compositions are making little musical sense, it's because they are focused more on how the score should "look" (formal considerations) than how it sounds (what's in their head.)  My personal approach is to get them to rely on their head, and above all, if they don't hear it, don't wrote it.  Similar to the approach my jazz profs took with me about only playing what you hear - the rest is BS. 

I'm not saying it can't be fun to experiment with forms, rows, etc... it's just that it never works out until one has developed a good sense of what a melody is.  music is as natural as breathing if you let it be.
I'm no composing genius.  Which is why I sell bolts for a living.  BUT - when I compose, I look for a melody FIRST, then the harmony comes later.  I know it doesn't HAVE to be done that way, but the harmonics seem to flow more naturally for me using that method.  Once I've got the general melody, all of the exposition, development, recap, variation, etc. can flow from that.

Schoenberg's book is good, even if you're not into 12-tone music.  Learned a lot from it.
ttf_Andrew Meronek
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Post by ttf_Andrew Meronek »

I looked at the hit counts for posts, and my Just Intonation Composition is #1 in this section!

Yay!  Image

One thing that hasn't come up in this thread (I think) is the value of studying composition with friends, basically forming the composition version of a book club. I do this, and get a lot of great feedback from them, and I get to provide the same to them. It works as long as we make effort to understand where each other is coming from. Looking through the history of music, highly successful groups of composers tend to come out of such groups. One that comes to mind is the minimalist 'school' of New York.
ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

One specific point of studying for a teacher - and by that I mean the "ideal" teacher - is that there is so much more to the plain technical writing of notes that makes up a sounding and resounding musical piece, that the student can discover from the tutor-student talks, discussions and evaluations in the teaching.

I belive that the point of having a teacher is the fact that we humans always seem to think "better", more creatively, more widely and more dynamically when we are interacting with other people and are subjects in social contexts. The teacher in itself has no actual part in the technical developement of a student besides a motivational and practical role but as I see it, the teacher is the main person to develop a students communicative, emotional and expressional skills in the students over all development in the composing field. I belive those qualities are nothing one can develop and evaluate by self studies and transcriptions; even though most people have an inner source of expressions and emotional gestures to scope from as a matter of who and what a person is.

To be a skillful composer I belive one cannot rely on that inner source only, because if its not subjected to at least one other persons thoughts, considerations and whatnot of social interactions of both good and bad, it will dry up or get stale from lack of expressional progression and developement. Something that has happened to many great artists and composers who get stuck in one genre or one style, and seem uncapable of changing to - or finding - something new.

For me, a teacher´s role is to motivate the student to have a technincal developement, but the most important role is to make the student see that there is a value in criticism, evaluations and discussions about the musical works, and to make the student ready for the confrontation between its works and the musicians and listeners reactions. That is why the personal qualities of a teacher are so important: A teacher should in my opinion be able to handle the sometimes very fragile aspirations of expression in its students, and through talks, discussions, criticism or arguments help the students to find ways to pursue their musical inspiration over time and by different circumstances. Of course not as a result of what the surroundings say and think, but as a result of the students own capability, need and choice to develop and its courage to go through the processes that lead to change.
ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

While the work in the realm of composing that I do can hardly be called composing, as it is so immature, one score that I would highly recommend for reading is Strauss's Ein Heldenleben.
ttf_robcat2075
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Post by ttf_robcat2075 »

Easily the most useless, I-actually-paid-tuition-for-that? experience I've ever had was studying composition at the University of North Texas.

You can read the story here:

Dance for the Perihelion!



ttf_robcat2075
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Post by ttf_robcat2075 »

And I'll note another worthless class was "Advanced Orchestration."

The instructor, a graduate student, spoke almost zero to the issue of using instruments. His whole thing was about making sharp-looking music manuscripts with special ink pens on vellum paper.

They looked perfect, like engraved pages from a major music publisher, but I don't need to tell you how worthless that skill is today.


ttf_Exzaclee
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Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

Quote from: robcat2075 on Apr 28, 2015, 11:28AMAnd I'll note another worthless class was "Advanced Orchestration."

The instructor, a graduate student, spoke almost zero to the issue of using instruments. His whole thing was about making sharp-looking music manuscripts with special ink pens on vellum paper.

They looked perfect, like engraved pages from a major music publisher, but I don't need to tell you how worthless that skill is today.



that used to be taught in "music fundamentals" - seems like the grad student didn't have much of a grasp on orchestration and chose not to teach it.  I can't blame him, really, it's a deeper art than many give it credit for.

so many "composition teachers" now-a-days are teaching advanced 20th century techniques (rows, serialism, etc.) and not very well either. They treat it like it's an advanced theory class. The best comp teachers I had made me listen, do score study and transcribe. "You wanna write like Beethoven?  Listen to Beethoven. It's real simple..."
ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: Exzaclee on Apr 28, 2015, 11:35AMso many "composition teachers" now-a-days are teaching advanced 20th century techniques (rows, serialism, etc.) and not very well either. They treat it like it's an advanced theory class. The best comp teachers I had made me listen, do score study and transcribe. "You wanna write like Beethoven?  Listen to Beethoven. It's real simple..."

I agree with your teachers. With my current teacher, I will bring what I have worked on for the week and then suggest listenings to see how composers were able to execute certain styles/directions that may be of use in my composition.

It also helps when you have a composition teacher who is geared more towards your group of interest. Only this semester my school's composition faculty included my teacher, who is more of full orchestra/large ensemble composer, where as other teachers focused more on chamber groups.
ttf_anonymous
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Studying composition with or without a teacher is a good question.  You need both.  A teacher for the basics for stuff dating back to the beginning of music performed.  This gives you the ability to study what you want, to do what you have to. For instance: Writing for "A" movies (star wars, independence day, the scent of a woman, etc...) is different than writing for a high school or college marching band.  Professional Musicians vs beginning musicians. However, that ground can merge. 

You should have a goal:  To make money, to be a good Samaritan, blow minds, show your heart, etc...  You goals will lead you into making the right decision for you.  I have met PHD's who have jobs writing demos for Yamaha, performance pianists who compose live while watching the films, dance instructors who compose for the Dance and Rock and Roll musicians who compose symphonies.

So if your goal is to study, use both a teacher and yourself.  If your goal is to be a composer...compose what you want or need or must do.  Start writing or playing now!
ttf_anonymous
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Studying composition with or without a teacher

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Studying composition with or without a teacher is a good question.  You need both.  A teacher for the basics for stuff dating back to the beginning of music performed.  This gives you the ability to study what you want, to do what you have to. For instance: Writing for "A" movies (star wars, independence day, the scent of a woman, etc...) is different than writing for a high school or college marching band.  Professional Musicians vs beginning musicians. However, that ground can merge. 

You should have a goal:  To make money, to be a good Samaritan, blow minds, show your heart, etc...  You goals will lead you into making the right decision for you.  I have met PHD's who have jobs writing demos for Yamaha, performance pianists who compose live while watching the films, dance instructors who compose for the Dance and Rock and Roll musicians who compose symphonies.

So if your goal is to study, use both a teacher and yourself.  If your goal is to be a composer...compose what you want or need or must do.  Start writing or playing now!
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