Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:13 am

Ive switched, for now, to a single valve bass bone. It works for me because Ive already had a CT release on my left hand. For those of us that prefer it, could you expand upon your preference for it?

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:47 am

As long as you don't have low Cs and Bs, a single trigger is great. I play my 70h when I play 3rd part in orchestra. In big band most of the charts don't have low notes even in the 4th part, so the 70h or Holton 159 sound great, plus they are so much lighter and less expensive.

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:58 am

I played my single 72H in big bands for about year, including on programs with lots of low Cs and Bs. It was hard work, but the classic sound was worth it. I played it in orchestras as well and it worked great for lighter rep. Now I also have a double valve 72H section that I use most of the time, but even though the valves are the only difference it sounds very different (I suspect mostly because of the added weight), so I bring both bell sections to big band shows and switch depending on the chart. They complement each other nicely.

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:06 am

I`m primarily a tenor player, but I double on Bass once and a while. 2 triggers is to much up keep for me. I learned on a 72H and a single works for me

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:19 am

Your 72H with two rotors is independent? That may have equally or perhaps slightly more to do with it than the weight itself; the benefit of single or dependent setups is that extra inch or so of that tapered tubing... in my experience at least. A/B comparing single and dependent setups I've encountered very little difference, especially with some of the modern rotors that are out there. Before I owned my own bass, I used my studios' Yamaha 622 (Yeo model) with the removable dependent D. I would record myself doing passages with the F alone and then with the D. Shuffle them and see if I could hear the differnece. Generally I could not, and when I could it was because a low passage was made much easier by the second rotor. Which doesn't mean that nobody would be able to tell the difference or that it would make a difference; obviously the horn exists with the removable valve for a reason after all.

So when you compare single to dependent setups, it boils down to whether or not the sound differential and extra ease in carrying the instrument is worth the tradeoff of decreased technical facility in the lower registers. Obviously if you don't play that low on a particular gig, then the answer is probably yes.

ttf_Catastrophone · Post by **ttf_Catastrophone** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:16 am

I like playing my 72H but only when I'm absolutely sure I won't need two valves.

Many years ago I played for a short tour which involved Schumann 3, a Beethoven overture and a newly commissioned euphonium concerto. I turned up with the 70H I owned at the time and had a week of misery. The concerto had many exposed fast bass bone passages running up from and down to the pedals via low C and B. Lesson learned! A single is great most of the time, but when you need a double you really need it.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:16 pm

I had a lovely old Bach 50 that I loved playing. I got more compliments with that horn than any other.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:22 pm

I play single trigger bass trombone because i have some very nice conn 60h and 70h trombones. I can't explain why so much. I just like the feel and sound when I play them. And they fit all environment from bands, big bands and the few orchestras I sometimes play in. The C and B? They can be played if i pull out the trigger tuning. Not easy but so fare nobody have complained. I also have a double trigger if i really need it, in fact most things goes ok with single. If I am in my right mind? Certainly can be discussed

Leif

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:53 am

I play valveless, single and double valve bass trombones. Straight F and G bass trombones, G/D and B flat/F bass trombones, and straight B flat tenor trombones (to play third trombone parts).

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:45 am

Well, I think the question about my mind should be judged by my collegues.
I played many double valve horns both dependant and independant. My first singel valve was the Earl Williams 10 that I played in the early 70th. I learned to love singel basses then.
Currently I own and play Bach 46, Holton 183 Yamaha 322 and Kanstul 1662, the last mentioned is a doulbe valve depndant.
The weight is one thing, long hours is taxing on the body though the Kanstul 16162 is lighter then many double horns. The sound, well, a heavy horn makes your body tense in the long run, and that may show in your sound. About indedies, they do sound different, you may like that or not, I don´t.
About low Cs and Bs, I have no problem with "fake" tones, low C in trigger 2 low B in trigger 3.
Is it diffecult? Na. If you play those tones in just the mpc you can do it on the horn.

ttf_slideorama · Post by **ttf_slideorama** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:34 am

Doug Yeo has written and spoke at length about this.

In Defense of the Single Valve Bass Trombone, Douglas Yeo. International Trombone Association Journal, Volume XII, No. 3, July 1984. pp. 20-23.

https://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/faq_text/valves.html

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:14 am

My bass is a double valve dependent Bass Bb/F/Eb, but I must admit the times I use the Eb valve are few and far between. I could see me getting by just fine on a Single valve bass in most cases.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:29 am

I know this has been discussed on other threads, but in light of the direction this thread seems to be going, this question:

A King 4B or a King 5B?

Premise: playing essentially non-soloing bass trombone parts in a big band and/or amateur symphonic setting.

...Geezer

ttf_Dennis Clason · Post by **ttf_Dennis Clason** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:48 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 24, 2017, 05:29AM
A King 4B or a King 5B?

Premise: playing essentially non-soloing bass trombone parts in a big band and/or amateur symphonic setting.

...Geezer

Either is okay, the 5B/Symphony is possibly a bit better (due to the larger bell throat). As to the non-soloing premise, I'm not sure about that. Bart Varsalona played with Kenton on a King Symphony and did his share of soloing.

When I did the Stravinsky *Octet for Winds* about 10 years ago I would have used a Symphony if I'd had one available.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:57 am

Quote from: Dennis Clason on Jul 24, 2017, 05:48AMEither is okay, the 5B/Symphony is possibly a bit better (due to the larger bell throat). As to the non-soloing premise, I'm not sure about that. Bart Varsalona played with Kenton on a King Symphony and did his share of soloing.

When I did the Stravinsky *Octet for Winds* about 10 years ago I would have used a Symphony if I'd had one available.

Thank you. I'm thinking 5B as well. I mean, if I want to go single-trigger bass, then I may as well go big-bell bass. I am 99% sure I would not have any meaningful solos in an amateur symphony on either 3rd or 4th in my next-of-the-woods, especially as a noob. And as far as big band; concert, swing and/or dance is concerned, my 88H would work very nicely, depending upon how I was seated and for any little solo I might catch.

...Geezer

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:15 am

I'd lean towards a 6B if you have the ability. The weight isn't that much bigger and the sound is definitely more bass. Even for swing stuff... I had a 9" bell on my Shires and the Duo Gravis just works better in every circumstance for bass parts than it did.You could swap out the valve for any single valve pretty easily though if you really wanted a single valve 6B too for what its worth.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:37 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 24, 2017, 06:15AMI'd lean towards a 6B if you have the ability. The weight isn't that much bigger and the sound is definitely more bass. Even for swing stuff... I had a 9" bell on my Shires and the Duo Gravis just works better in every circumstance for bass parts than it did.You could swap out the valve for any single valve pretty easily though if you really wanted a single valve 6B too for what its worth.

I don't doubt you at all. But I'm drawing the line at a single-trigger bass. For my use, it wouldn't be worth the extra money for more than that. I have sat beside guys playing bass on everything from a King 2B with a trigger(!) to a double-trigger bass. Even the little King met the minimum standard in the groups I hang with, although I do admit the double-trigger bass was mighty impressive. But again, in the groups with which I associate, I know I could do well enough with either my 88H or my 3B/F with a Bach 5G mpc in either. But for the heck of it and not much more than say, a $1,000 - I think it would be fun and I emphasize fun - and nothing more than that - to have a larger horn. Clearly not a necessity or I would just drive down the road to another group where it didn't matter.

Someone possibly a lot younger and with much higher expectations? That's a different story completely.

...Geezer

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:46 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 23, 2017, 10:19AMYour 72H with two rotors is independent? That may have equally or perhaps slightly more to do with it than the weight itself; the benefit of single or dependent setups is that extra inch or so of that tapered tubing... in my experience at least.

Yeah, it's indy. Good point about the taper.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:54 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 24, 2017, 06:37AMI don't doubt you at all. But I'm drawing the line at a single-trigger bass. For my use, it wouldn't be worth the extra money for more than that. I have sat beside guys playing bass on everything from a King 2B with a trigger(!) to a double-trigger bass. Even the little King met the minimum standard in the groups I hang with, although I do admit the double-trigger bass was mighty impressive. But again, in the groups with which I associate, I know I could do well enough with either my 88H or my 3B/F with a Bach 5G mpc in either. But for the heck of it and not much more than say, a $1,000 - I think it would be fun and I emphasize fun - and nothing more than that - to have a larger horn. Clearly not a necessity or I would just drive down the road to another group where it didn't matter.

Someone possibly a lot younger and with much higher expectations? That's a different story completely.

...Geezer

I guess what I'm saying is that you already have an 88 and the 5B isn't going to play much differently. I mean, sure, if you want to drop that kind of bread you can probably find another buyer if you don't like it! But you're probably better off finding a single rotor. The reason I suggested the 6B is the tenor sized rotor, but there are obviously other horns that fit the bill, mentioned in this thread even: 70H, 50B, etc.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:59 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 24, 2017, 05:29AMI know this has been discussed on other threads, but in light of the direction this thread seems to be going, this question:

A King 4B or a King 5B?

Premise: playing essentially non-soloing bass trombone parts in a big band and/or amateur symphonic setting.
If you're thinking of a large-bore King for playing bass trombone parts, it's the 1480, hands down. The 4B and the later 5B (the one with the 4B-style wrap) just don't do as well in the low register.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:06 am

I've played a 70h in this context, but my favorite horn for playing single trigger bass stuff has got to be the Holton tr159. King 5b is nice too, but to me, the 159 sounds and feels better as both a bass and a tenor.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:17 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 24, 2017, 06:54AMI guess what I'm saying is that you already have an 88 and the 5B isn't going to play much differently. I mean, sure, if you want to drop that kind of bread you can probably find another buyer if you don't like it! But you're probably better off finding a single rotor. The reason I suggested the 6B is the tenor sized rotor, but there are obviously other horns that fit the bill, mentioned in this thread even: 70H, 50B, etc.

That's interesting because I can hear a big difference between my 88H and 3B/F; both with a Bach 5G mpc. I know the horn sizes are different but the sound difference goes beyond that. It is their timbre. Kings have a different quality of sound than Conns do - to my ear. I like them both but hate the trigger on the 88H. Kings are Kings and Conns are Conns. So I would expect to hear quite a difference between my 88H and a 5B. Maybe it wouldn't show up in a recording or maybe a band would cover the difference, but I would expect to hear it. I would expect to hear the timbre of a King, but as large or larger of a sound as my 88H. I also expect to like the trigger. So if I test play one and like it, I will probably buy it and maybe even sell the 88H.

Maybe it's just me, but I can hear one heck of a difference between different horns when I play them.

Now, what are we talking about in a 6B; a factory double dependent trigger or one that has been modified? What little I can find out about them are that they are obscure horns and a PITA if played stock from the factory.

Should I have my 88H trigger replaced with a modern valve? Seems to me, for the money, if I like the sound of a 5B, then why not just buy a 5B. A replacement valve for the 88H would probably cost me as much as I paid for the horn in the first place and kill it's resale value.

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 24, 2017, 07:59AMIf you're thinking of a large-bore King for playing bass trombone parts, it's the 1480, hands down. The 4B and the later 5B (the one with the 4B-style wrap) just don't do as well in the low register.

Here again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

...Geezer

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:55 am

A couple things to unpack here:

QuoteThat's interesting because I can hear a big difference between my 88H and 3B/F; both with a Bach 5G mpc
That's quite expected. The 3BF is a 508 bore and the 88H is a 547 bore. The 88H has a 8.5" bell the 3B an 8" bell. Both are older horns so who knows what may be influencing the F attachment side between corrision, burrs, etc. Or misaligned valve ports, etc.

The difference between the 88H and the 5B is going to be much less if for no other reason than the slide bore are much closer. I've played several 5Bs (or what we call 5Bs, there's some nuance you can find in these threads:

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3

... they have generally been smaller feeling than the 88Hs I've played. That certainly may have something to do with the 536 slides on some of them. I've also played some 4Bs that felt the same. Although I will say there was a quite remarkable 4B that a friend of mine picked up and had Jeff Bonk totally rebuild the horn and it plays like a dream, although still plays like a tenor.

If you get one of the ones that has a 547/547 slide, then the only differences between the King you pick up and the Conn 88 will be the .5" in the bell and the construction differences chosen such as tubing, crook (tuning slide & handslide), and leadpipe. Which isn't to say they are the same horn, they definitely are not. They do play differently. But not nearly as differently as a 508 horn will to a 547 horn.

QuoteNow, what are we talking about in a 6B; a factory double dependent trigger or one that has been modified? What little I can find out about them are that they are obscure horns and a PITA if played stock from the factory.

The reason I suggested the 6B is because they are among the easiest playing basses I've encountered. One reason for that is the 562 sized tubing and rotors I think. Despite what you might think, they dont' play stuffy - at least to me - despite being much smaller than typical bass rotors at .590. It seems like lots of tenor players doubling on bass have the same perception.

As far as stock or not, the problems people tend to have with the grip is using the 2nd attachment. Many have been converted to have the Eb or D valve operated with the ring finger, so you may not have to worry about it. If you did find one that is factory original, you'd find that it isn't very expensive to switch over. There are also devotees of the configuration like myself that find it very comfortable.

That said, if you had your mind set on a single rotor bass, you *could* find an inexpensive rotor section from a tenor that had a conversion and swap it out. I don't think its necessary though, the 6B isn't a particularly heavy horn and because the thumb goes over the bar, if you aren't a heavy user of the 2nd paddle you probably will find it quite well balanced too.

QuoteHere again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

I found the low range on my King 3BF before I sold it to be actually quite good. Don't confuse ease of playing with sound though! Small bore horns take less air, and so can be easy to bust out low notes, but that doesn't mean they will sound 'right'! That said, have you had the 88H looked at? It may well have some corrosion or a leak somewhere.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:08 am

This might fit the bill.

https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/trombones/tenor-trombone/pbf555-trombone/

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:17 am

FWIW I played an old Yamaha single bass. Red or gold brass bell. Lower end model. Oh boy did I like that. Not something I had use for as I was using a Minick 180 for jazz and a 822G for symphony, but if that's all I happened to have I would have been happy. It wasn't heavy and it wasn't awkward. In fact the trumpet professor thought it was a tenor when he was checking it out. I only played it with a bass mouthpiece but I'm sure even with a 3G it could easily double and sound great. I think it could be pulled to E but I never tried.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:20 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 24, 2017, 08:55AMA couple things to unpack here:

That's quite expected. The 3BF is a 508 bore and the 88H is a 547 bore. The 88H has a 8.5" bell the 3B an 8" bell. Both are older horns so who knows what may be influencing the F attachment side between corrision, burrs, etc. Or misaligned valve ports, etc.

The difference between the 88H and the 5B is going to be much less if for no other reason than the slide bore are much closer. I've played several 5Bs (or what we call 5Bs, there's some nuance you can find in these threads:

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3

... they have generally been smaller feeling than the 88Hs I've played. That certainly may have something to do with the 536 slides on some of them. I've also played some 4Bs that felt the same. Although I will say there was a quite remarkable 4B that a friend of mine picked up and had Jeff Bonk totally rebuild the horn and it plays like a dream, although still plays like a tenor.

If you get one of the ones that has a 547/547 slide, then the only differences between the King you pick up and the Conn 88 will be the .5" in the bell and the construction differences chosen such as tubing, crook (tuning slide & handslide), and leadpipe. Which isn't to say they are the same horn, they definitely are not. They do play differently. But not nearly as differently as a 508 horn will to a 547 horn.

The reason I suggested the 6B is because they are among the easiest playing basses I've encountered. One reason for that is the 562 sized tubing and rotors I think. Despite what you might think, they dont' play stuffy - at least to me - despite being much smaller than typical bass rotors at .590. It seems like lots of tenor players doubling on bass have the same perception.

As far as stock or not, the problems people tend to have with the grip is using the 2nd attachment. Many have been converted to have the Eb or D valve operated with the ring finger, so you may not have to worry about it. If you did find one that is factory original, you'd find that it isn't very expensive to switch over. There are also devotees of the configuration like myself that find it very comfortable.

That said, if you had your mind set on a single rotor bass, you *could* find an inexpensive rotor section from a tenor that had a conversion and swap it out. I don't think its necessary though, the 6B isn't a particularly heavy horn and because the thumb goes over the bar, if you aren't a heavy user of the 2nd paddle you probably will find it quite well balanced too.

I found the low range on my King 3BF before I sold it to be actually quite good. Don't confuse ease of playing with sound though! Small bore horns take less air, and so can be easy to bust out low notes, but that doesn't mean they will sound 'right'! That said, have you had the 88H looked at? It may well have some corrosion or a leak somewhere.

I thought I covered the size difference. lol It goes beyond that. My two Kings sound like great Kings ought to and my Conn sounds like a great Conn ought to. Size doesn't have anything to do with a certain part of it. A good King has a characteristic sound and a good Conn has it's own characteristic sound, at least to my ears. If a given 4B or a 5B has that good characteristic King sound, then an easier trigger would trump both good sounds.

I had my 88H completely serviced. It sounds Conn-fantastic with a Bach 5G mouthpiece. I just hate the trigger. I love the trigger on my 3B/F. If I find that I love the trigger on a 4B or a 5B and as I stated, they have a great King-fantastic sound, then it's a no-brainer for me.

Quote from: Pre59 on Jul 24, 2017, 09:08AMThis might fit the bill.

https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/trombones/tenor-trombone/pbf555-trombone/

Looks like a nice horn. I wonder, though if the resell value is above a buck, two ninety eight.

The 4B and the 5B are obscure enough for me.

...Geezer

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:52 am

QuoteI thought I covered the size difference. lol It goes beyond that. My two Kings sound like great Kings ought to and my Conn sounds like a great Conn ought to. Size doesn't have anything to do with a certain part of it. A good King has a characteristic sound and a good Conn has it's own characteristic sound, at least to my ears. If a given 4B or a 5B has that good characteristic King sound, then an easier trigger would trump both good sounds.

That's fair; but in my experience the difference between a King 4B/5B/1408 and an 88H isn't all that big either way! Just as the difference between a Conn 6H and a 2b+ aren't absolutely that different either. You're comparing a lot of different things including something that you are admittedly saying is basically impossible to define

QuoteI had my 88H completely serviced. It sounds Conn-fantastic with a Bach 5G mouthpiece. I just hate the trigger. I love the trigger on my 3B/F. If I find that I love the trigger on a 4B or a 5B and as I stated, they have a great King-fantastic sound, then it's a no-brainer for me.

The 4B and the 5B are obscure enough for me.

With the kings I've played, the horns between 525 and 562 generally play and sound much differently than I'd expect a King to sound. My experience isn't universal though, so take it with a grain of salt!

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:56 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 24, 2017, 08:17AMHere again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.There, you've gone an misquoted me. I didn't say:
Quoteeither the 4B or 5B just don't do well in the low registerI said:
Quote The 4B and the later 5B (the one with the 4B-style wrap) just don't do as well in the low register.
1480's aren't that obscure, either - King made them for a lot of years. They tend to get sold as 5B's (and were, in fact, listed as the 5B for a while before the redesign). When George McCracken designed the 4BF, he decided to use .547" tubing for the f-attachment; that was carried over to the "new" 5B. The 1480 has .562" tubing in the f-attachment.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:57 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 24, 2017, 09:52AMThat's fair; but in my experience the difference between a King 4B/5B/1408 and an 88H isn't all that big either way! Just as the difference between a Conn 6H and a 2b+ aren't absolutely that different either. You're comparing a lot of different things including something that you are admittedly saying is basically impossible to define

With the kings I've played, the horns between 525 and 562 generally play and sound much differently than I'd expect a King to sound. My experience isn't universal though, so take it with a grain of salt!

Lol It's like a judge said about pornography once; I know it when I - in this case - hear it. lol A King is a King and a Conn is a Conn. Love 'em both, but they sound very different to my ear. I can't please others until I can please myself.

...Geezer

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:01 am

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 24, 2017, 09:56AMThere, you've gone an misquoted me. I didn't say:I said:
1480's aren't that obscure, either - King made them for a lot of years. They tend to get sold as 5B's (and were, in fact, listed as the 5B for a while before the redesign). When George McCracken designed the 4BF, he decided to use .547" tubing for the f-attachment; that was carried over to the "new" 5B. The 1480 has .562" tubing in the f-attachment.

I stand corrected.

Something - to me - is obscure enough if I can not find a current sale listing on eBay. lol

...Geezer

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:12 am

There are a couple 2105s at Dillon at the moment:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx?pagenum=6

I played both of them a few weeks ago. They both play about the same as the other one. They aren't my cup of tea but they seemed to be in good mechanical condition. Again, stuffier than I'd prefer but some people's 'stuffy' is another persons' 'doesn't take as much air'!

That said, the two single valve basses they have for sale, the Conn 70H and 72H both play excellently to me. Really, really great specimens that if I had the bread I could see myself using for situations although the Duo Gravis I have works really well for me too so it would be a toss up. The 2015s are a lot cheaper though.

ttf_Tbonedude · Post by **ttf_Tbonedude** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:20 am

I have a newer-style King 5B I use for pretty much everything. The 5B is a good fit for me as a large tenor, but it's lacking as a bass. I used to play it all the time as a bass, but as my needs grow, the horn struggles to fill them. I'm writing my own quartets and stuff for my youtube channel, and the bass trombone parts are starting to really push the 5B close to the edge of what it can effectively play. It's impossible for me to cleanly articulate a low C and B (I've tried every type of tonguing I can think of). I have really started to notice the resistance of the F side as well, since the F wrap isn't overbored.

I personally would prefer a double valve bass with a larger bore than the 5B. I played one of those 7B clones and it was like night and day in the low register. Easy to play, valves are surprisingly open, and the tone is glorious. I'd buy one in a heartbeat, if I could afford it. Shoot, from the sounds of it, I'd even trade my 5B for an older 5B/1480.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:27 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 24, 2017, 08:17AMI ... hate the trigger on the 88H. ...
Should I have my 88H trigger replaced with a modern valve?

My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

...Geezer

Geezer,

If your Conn 88H is not open (stuffy?) in the low register and when using the F-attachment (especially compared to the King 2B & 3B/F), there is probably something amiss with your 88H. I suggest having it carefully examined by a first class tech. When properly adjusted, aligned, and opened up, the 88H is still a world-class trombone, and should easily outplay your Kings in the low register. And I, for one, find the thumb lever on the 88H to be much more comfortable (ergonomic) than the awkward 3B/F "trigger."

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:44 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 24, 2017, 10:12AMThere are a couple 2105s at Dillon at the moment:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx?pagenum=6

I played both of them a few weeks ago. They both play about the same as the other one. They aren't my cup of tea but they seemed to be in good mechanical condition. Again, stuffier than I'd prefer but some people's 'stuffy' is another persons' 'doesn't take as much air'!

That said, the two single valve basses they have for sale, the Conn 70H and 72H both play excellently to me. Really, really great specimens that if I had the bread I could see myself using for situations although the Duo Gravis I have works really well for me too so it would be a toss up. The 2015s are a lot cheaper though.

Personally, I think they are asking too much for those horns. Someone will buy them, but that doesn't mean they will have gotten a good deal. I would be curious to see what the final bid price for them would be if they were listed on an eBay auction at a low starting point. I see similar horns from time-to-time on eBay with similar starting points. They sell eventually but that doesn't tell me what a fair market value is, it just tells me that someone impulsively hit the "buy" button.

Quote from: Posaunus on Jul 24, 2017, 10:27AMGeezer,

If your Conn 88H is not open (stuffy?) in the low register and when using the F-attachment (especially compared to the King 2B & 3B/F), there is probably something amiss with your 88H. I suggest having it carefully examined by a first class tech. When properly adjusted, aligned, and opened up, the 88H is still a world-class trombone, and should easily outplay your Kings in the low register. And I, for one, find the thumb lever on the 88H to be much more comfortable (ergonomic) than the awkward 3B/F "trigger."

It's of average openness, having tried several in past years. I think my King 3B/F is exceptionally open down there, so perhaps by comparison the 88H seems not as open when in fact it's quite average. It was fully examined and fully serviced. It is in fit working order all around. The tech adjusted the trigger so that it does work as well for me as is possible, given it's structure. I still don't like it. I have learned I am not the only one who doesn't like the 88H trigger, although it might seem like I am today. lol

Dif'rent strokes. I find the trigger on the 88H - and I've tried a bunch of 88H's, so it's not just my horn - to be difficult for me. Whereas, after working up a proper callus, the trigger on my 3B/F is a dream. But it took working up a proper callus to make it so. Well, us athletes must mold our bodies. Maybe if I could grow a - - - - - different - - - - - 88H-type thumb...

Just as an interesting note b/c it really doesn't mean anything - the tech had to replace the mangled upright brace for the left hand. I guess the previous owner had quite a gorilla grip!

We've probably strayed a bit off topic.

...Geezer

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:49 am

The asking price at Dillon isnt' set in stone. You might be surprised if you made an offer that one of them wouldn't get accepted.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:56 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 24, 2017, 10:49AMThe asking price at Dillon isnt' set in stone. You might be surprised if you made an offer that one of them wouldn't get accepted.

I might have to make a "Dillon Run"!

On the one hand I wonder if they would take a trade. On the other hand, it would probably be best to get the lowest price one could get for a purchase and then outright sell an unwanted horn on eBay, Craig's List, TTF Classified or the like.

I guess this is sorta on topic in general b/c we have to buy a horn to get a horn, usually.

...Geezer

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:41 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 24, 2017, 10:01AMSomething - to me - is obscure enough if I can not find a current sale listing on eBay.A 1480 on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-F-Attachment-Rotor-Valve-Trombone-/401368236070

and one at Dillon Music:
http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-23069-king-5b-unstamped-professional-bbf.aspx

Dillon's also has an early 1485 (that's a 1480 with a silver bell), but it's pretty pricey.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:26 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 24, 2017, 03:41PMA 1480 on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-F-Attachment-Rotor-Valve-Trombone-/401368236070

and one at Dillon Music:
http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-23069-king-5b-unstamped-professional-bbf.aspx

Dillon's also has an early 1485 (that's a 1480 with a silver bell), but it's pretty pricey.

For some odd reason, I missed that listing on eBay. Thanks! I am actually more interested in it than the one at Dillons. If the bidding doesn't get too high, it might be worth it to have it refinished.

So how should the buyer beware on that eBay horn? Is that linkage original or a modification? I see the tuning slide dents. No big deal there. I don't see any red rot, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I don't see any significant bell dents but that doesn't mean there weren't any that were rolled out once-upon-a-time.

...Geezer

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:25 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 24, 2017, 04:26PMFor some odd reason, I missed that listing on eBay. Thanks! I am actually more interested in it than the one at Dillons. If the bidding doesn't get too high, it might be worth it to have it refinished.That's a very late 1480; you just make out the "Eastlake, Ohio" on the bell (I leave it to you to check the serial number, should the spirit move you). Volenwein's has a decent reputation and their warranty sounds good. Low risk.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:36 pm

If you get it at that price, I'd say there's a very, very negligible chance you'll end up spendin gmore than $1k on it.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:42 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 24, 2017, 05:25PMThat's a very late 1480; you just make out the "Eastlake, Ohio" on the bell (I leave it to you to check the serial number, should the spirit move you). Volenwein's has a decent reputation and their warranty sounds good. Low risk.

Interesting single-valve bass trombone. Eastlake can be good.

Maybe it will turn out I won't be in my right mind, as the title of this thread asks - if I try playing a true bass part on it or one like it.

Worth watching...

...Geezer

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:12 pm

Oops! Wrong thread.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:02 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 24, 2017, 02:45AMWell, I think the question about my mind should be judged by my collegues.
I played many double valve horns both dependant and independant. My first singel valve was the Earl Williams 10 that I played in the early 70th. I learned to love singel basses then.
Currently I own and play Bach 46, Holton 183 Yamaha 322 and Kanstul 1662, the last mentioned is a doulbe valve depndant.
The weight is one thing, long hours is taxing on the body though the Kanstul 16162 is lighter then many double horns. The sound, well, a heavy horn makes your body tense in the long run, and that may show in your sound. About indedies, they do sound different, you may like that or not, I don´t.
About low Cs and Bs, I have no problem with "fake" tones, low C in trigger 2 low B in trigger 3.
Is it diffecult? Na. If you play those tones in just the mpc you can do it on the horn.

As one who actually has heard you on the single trigger, I know they can be done. They are especially good when you play them

. I don't know, maybe the factitious notes are going to be a lost art in the future because of the double trigger.

There are now lots of musicians who do not use them in public. Some do like to practice them because they find them helpful only in practice situations.

I'm convinced they can be taught by anyone who is committed enough. They are useful because if you can do the few C's and B's you have a lighter and more responsive instrument on the rest of the piece.

/Tom

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:15 pm

A bit of fuzziness here:

King Symphony was originally an American R&D large tenor to replicate large tenor GERMAN trombone. At present this doesn't matter any more because nobody here is going to be playing tenor trombone in the Cleveland Orchestra in 1960.

That said, the argument of whether a single is useful is moot: buy two pieces of appropriate sized model rocket tube in brass so they nest and be rebuilt to add extensions on a single valve to put the single into Eb.

Total cost to make any Bb/F horn a Bb/Eb horn: $10.

I've owned them all, and played them enough for good pay that they weren't sold until they paid themselves off and they'd paid for themselves. A Symphony plays bigger than a .547 5B, or a Symphony with a .547 4B slide.
The dual bore slide plays huge.

Here is the secret: buy either a new Rath B2 mouthpiece or a Conn 3B Connstellation bass mouthpiece and any .547 horn will blow the sh*t out of any ensemble, or Rochut until your cows come home.

Just practice.

ttf_donn · Post by **ttf_donn** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:38 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Jul 25, 2017, 01:15PMThat said, the argument of whether a single is useful is moot: buy two pieces of appropriate sized model rocket tube in brass so they nest and be rebuilt to add extensions on a single valve to put the single into Eb.

Total cost to make any Bb/F horn a Bb/Eb horn: $10.

I am tempted. Already somewhat used to Bb/E with stock configuration. I guess not many players ever go outside of Bb/F?

QuoteHere is the secret: buy either a new Rath B2 mouthpiece or a Conn 3B Connstellation bass mouthpiece and any .547 horn will blow the sh*t out of any ensemble, or Rochut until your cows come home.

That 3B would be for your Conn 88, or Conn or Reynolds bass, am I right? owing to the Brown & Sharpe shank taper.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:42 am

Not many bass players do at least. I've played very few pieces where I'd rather have a solid B and lose the flexibility of 1st position C and B give.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:53 am

Would a Bb/D (no F) be a workable setup?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:54 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Yesterday at 07:53 AMWould a Bb/D (no F) be a workable setup?

Only if you were okay with not having any access to Eb.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:36 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Yesterday at 07:53 AMWould a Bb/D (no F) be a workable setup?

I tried this recently. Not a D, but Eb. If you have to have a bass, and REALLLY don't want 2 triggers, yeah, you can do this. It gets sticky when you have to go E-Eb, though. Plus, I had a giant slide out the back of the horn. Need a couple returns on that.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:26 am

Quote from: Matt K on Yesterday at 07:54 AMOnly if you were okay with not having any access to Eb.

My bad..