Why can trumpet players have a flugelhorn but trombone players not have a conical instrument?
Conical Design
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ttf_Pteranabone
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ttf_mr.deacon
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Quote from: Pteranabone on Aug 11, 2017, 09:21PMWhy can trumpet players have a flugelhorn but trombone players not have a conical instrument?
We do! It's called a Euphonium
We do! It's called a Euphonium
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ttf_Pteranabone
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. Ha!Let me be more specific. Why can't we have a slide euphonium?
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ttf_JohnL
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Quote from: Pteranabone on Aug 11, 2017, 09:38PM . Ha!
Let me be more specific. Why can't we have a slide euphonium?Because the slide tubes have to be pretty much cylindrical. There was an attempt to make a conical bore slide (look up "couturier trombone"). In order to have a tapered bore on the lower slide, it was necessary to actually have the lower outer tube stationary and the lower inner move inside it. Never caught on.
Even at that, the Couturier "conical bore" was a pretty slow taper, so it still wouldn't be that close to a euphonium or even a baritone.
. Ha!Let me be more specific. Why can't we have a slide euphonium?Because the slide tubes have to be pretty much cylindrical. There was an attempt to make a conical bore slide (look up "couturier trombone"). In order to have a tapered bore on the lower slide, it was necessary to actually have the lower outer tube stationary and the lower inner move inside it. Never caught on.
Even at that, the Couturier "conical bore" was a pretty slow taper, so it still wouldn't be that close to a euphonium or even a baritone.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Quote from: Pteranabone on Aug 11, 2017, 09:38PM . Ha!
Let me be more specific. Why can't we have a slide euphonium?
Check out the slide euphoniums in the front row of this band.
. Ha!Let me be more specific. Why can't we have a slide euphonium?
Check out the slide euphoniums in the front row of this band.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Cornetão gatilho eufônico...
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ttf_JWykell
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What if some one made a half length double slide. Basically the same design as BB flat contra, but make each leg progressively larger so it would be a quad bore slide. You could do .508/.525/.547/.562. To make it even harder to make out tunning in the slide for a fully conical bell section.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Conical Design
Quote from: JWykell on Aug 12, 2017, 11:27AMWhat if some one made a half length double slide. Basically the same design as BB flat contra, but make each leg progressively larger so it would be a quad bore slide. You could do .508/.525/.547/.562. To make it even harder to make out tunning in the slide for a fully conical bell section.
Got a big pile of money at your disposal? Have at it.
Got a big pile of money at your disposal? Have at it.
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ttf_Matt K
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Conical Design
Quote from: Pteranabone on Aug 11, 2017, 09:38PM . Ha!
Let me be more specific. Why can't we have a slide euphonium?
See here and [url=mailto:https://www.robbstewart.com/contrabass-trombones-eb]here[/url]!
Quote from: Robb StewartFor this page, I'm digging even deeper into my archives. Very early in my career, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, there were a surprising number of Los Angeles trumpet players that were doubling on slide trumpet. One influence was the Moravian trombone choir, led by the Philharmonic bass trombonist, Jeff Reynolds. This was an ensemble of slide trombones from soprano in Eb to contrabass in BBb. The musicianship was consistently high, attracting many professionals. Several commercial players had also taken up the slide trumpet, including Chuck and Bob Findlay, and Maynard Ferguson was also very influential with his Firebird trumpet. Both Larry Minick and Dominic Calicchio were making slide trumpets to satisfy local demands and it wasn't long before some of the younger guys approached me about making them. The only inexpensive alternative at the time was the Getzen made in the 1960s, which was never intended to be a high grade instrument. There were antique slide cornets around, but prices were already rising. My first attempt, in 1978, was made by cutting down a small bore (.468") trombone slide and attaching a cornet bell. It was playable, but not a very good instrument. I also made a trumpet with three valves and a full length slide, like a soprano version of the Holton Superbone. This was a disaster and my first lesson about not deviating too far from proven acoustic design.
I decided that it was not such a good idea to have my name associated with such inferior instruments and for the next one, I made up new slide tubes and the rest of the parts were new Olds trumpet and trombone. I made about 10 of these over a few years and most had the F valve as pictured here. In 1984, I was approached by trombonist Eugene Lebeaux, who wanted to play solos on flugelhorn as well as trombone. He asked me to make him a slide flugelhorn. This came to mind recently when a request was made for me to make a slide euphonium and I also discuss the impossibility of making a slide tuba on my contrabass trombone
page.
In all three cases, the nature of the instruments is largely determined by a taper through most of the instrument's length, ending in a rather large bell. It is impossible to retain the character of flugelhorn, euphonium or tuba with a long enough slide to play the full range chromatically. My suggestion to Lebeaux was the instrument pictured here. This is certainly not a slide flugelhorn, but has the widest bell possible on a soprano trombone, has a dual bore (.438/.460") slide and takes a flugelhorn mouthpiece. Both the deep cup of the mouthpiece and the wide bell flare contribute to a much darker timbre than typical trumpets and cornets. While not what we know as a flugelhorn sound, it is distinct from the brighter sounding instruments. This is the bell that was designed for use on Olds bugle corps bugles in G and is also used on Kanstul Stadium and Wild Thing trumpets. It was very successful and I believe that Lebeaux still plays it today.
While we're in the mood for pushing boundaries: The next photo is a piccolo trombone or slide trumpet that I made more as a novelty or experiment. This was at the time that Larry Minick was still making slide trumpets, mostly in Bb, but a few in soprano Eb that used his own piccolo trumpet bells. We both knew that this was the upper limits for a practical instrument, but I really wanted to know what could really be done with a true piccolo trombone in Bb. It actually does play well enough to be used in performances if used judiciously. I eventually sold it to John Schoolcraft of the Make Believe Brass (playing at Disneyland at the time) for use in their trombone quintet in which it was only brought out to surprise even the most savvy audience that wouldn't have known that such a thing existed. I had previously made a pair of slide trumpets with F valve similar to the top photo, that they would use for most pieces, the piccolo was only occasionally taken out of John's pocket just for fun.
Quote from: 'Robb Stewart'These two contrabass trombones are all new (not modified used instruments) and somewhat unique designs. Both are for playing the same contrabass trombone range, but each has it's own twist. The first shown here was made in 1995 for the great Los Angeles session bass trombonist, Bill Reichenbach, after many discussions about the particulars of the design and what he wanted to achieve with it. Anybody who has played a trombone with a double slide will understand Bill's reluctance to utilize this feature, but he thought that needing to use a handle on a long single slide would be worse. I convinced him that there are advantages gained by putting the four slide tubes in a single plane rather than the usual, side by side, design seen in BBb and CC trombones. Not only is it slightly lighter, but it necessitates less tube length, allowing a relatively longer bell section. Keep in mind that even though this trombone is the same pitch as an Eb tuba, it has the slide positions of an alto trombone. Another unusual feature is that it has 8 full positions in Eb rather than the usual 7 and a good 6 positions in BBb. He wanted the valves set up exactly as on his regular work horse bass trombones, both the lever positions and the relative pitch changes (BBb and GG). It also seemed ideal to have the bell in a "normal" relation to the player, although Bill does not need to gauge his slide positions by the rim. If you look closely, you might not find the main tuning slide. The upper crook on the slide pulls out for cleaning and has a very short allowance for tuning. This worked out well since this instrument is intended strictly for use in the studio where the environment is predictable, both in temperature and tuning of other players. Bill has used this instrument on all his recording gigs that called for contrabass trombone. Most of the important parts needed for this trombone were supplied by Zig Kanstul. The bell is intended for his marching baritone horn and the crooks and tubes were for various tubas. Zig specially made the slide tubes including chrome plating the inside tubes (.605" bore). The cork barrels are Olds bass trombone, although I had to make the oversize bell and slide receiver and nut assembly. The rotary valves (.656" bore) are the same that are made for my Eb tubas by Joe Marcinkiewicz and the lever assembly I made to copy those made for Bill's Conn 62H by George Strucel many years ago. I honestly don't remember what I used for the mouthpipe, but something appropriate for the bore size and a tuba mouthpiece. When Bill came to pick up the instrument, I was prepared for the fact that I might have to make some adjustments and I hoped that there would be nothing major to re-do. He picked it up and put it to his mouth and played it as if he had been playing it all his life. He is that kind of a musician; he can play any brass instrument well. He has used this trombone for many recording sessions. The fifth photo shows Bill prominently holding this trombone in the studio during a recording session for "Batman Forever" taken from Malcolm McNab's website.
The second case here precedes the first by eleven years (1984) and is related both in the fact that it is Eb as well as the fact that Bill Reichenbach borrowed this one when we were in the discussion phase of designing his. This trombone was made for Paul Chauvin, a fabulous tuba and trombone player, best known as member of Make Believe Brass which originated at Disneyland. This group was of a higher level of musicianship than one might expect from that park. Anyway, Paul asked me if I could make him a "slide tuba" for times when the MBB would all play slide trombones and slide trumpets. He wanted more than a bass trombone sound. I told him that it was impossible to have the large tapered body of even a small tuba in combination with the long cylindrical tubing needed for a trombone slide. I suggested that an interesting compromise might be to use a euphonium bell and body attached to a normal bass trombone slide. This would give him five and a half slide positions and I added the third, whole step, valve to make up for the missing hand slide length. One challenge would be holding it in playing position while freely manipulating the three valve levers. The levers are pushed with the first three fingers of the left hand whilst the thumb and fourth finger are able to grip the bell section securely. I can't claim that it is the most comfortable instrument to hold, but it works and Paul got some good use out of it. This trombone was constructed mostly out of Olds parts, as I used in so many of my early projects. The bell, branches and tuning slide are all for an Olds euphonium. The hand slide (.562" bore) and rotary valves (.585" bore) are all standard for Olds bass trombones. The valves are tuned to BBb, AAb with alternate GG slide (dependant on Bb valve) and Db (independant). It was quite a challenge to design the valve levers to be easily manipulated by the fingers, but I got it to work well. A big compromise for Paul was giving up a full 7 position glissando. After some practice, he demonstrated that it was, indeed, possible to release the whole step valve in the middle of a slide glissando, making a good imitation of a full length slide.
. Ha!Let me be more specific. Why can't we have a slide euphonium?
See here and [url=mailto:https://www.robbstewart.com/contrabass-trombones-eb]here[/url]!
Quote from: Robb StewartFor this page, I'm digging even deeper into my archives. Very early in my career, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, there were a surprising number of Los Angeles trumpet players that were doubling on slide trumpet. One influence was the Moravian trombone choir, led by the Philharmonic bass trombonist, Jeff Reynolds. This was an ensemble of slide trombones from soprano in Eb to contrabass in BBb. The musicianship was consistently high, attracting many professionals. Several commercial players had also taken up the slide trumpet, including Chuck and Bob Findlay, and Maynard Ferguson was also very influential with his Firebird trumpet. Both Larry Minick and Dominic Calicchio were making slide trumpets to satisfy local demands and it wasn't long before some of the younger guys approached me about making them. The only inexpensive alternative at the time was the Getzen made in the 1960s, which was never intended to be a high grade instrument. There were antique slide cornets around, but prices were already rising. My first attempt, in 1978, was made by cutting down a small bore (.468") trombone slide and attaching a cornet bell. It was playable, but not a very good instrument. I also made a trumpet with three valves and a full length slide, like a soprano version of the Holton Superbone. This was a disaster and my first lesson about not deviating too far from proven acoustic design.
I decided that it was not such a good idea to have my name associated with such inferior instruments and for the next one, I made up new slide tubes and the rest of the parts were new Olds trumpet and trombone. I made about 10 of these over a few years and most had the F valve as pictured here. In 1984, I was approached by trombonist Eugene Lebeaux, who wanted to play solos on flugelhorn as well as trombone. He asked me to make him a slide flugelhorn. This came to mind recently when a request was made for me to make a slide euphonium and I also discuss the impossibility of making a slide tuba on my contrabass trombone
page.
In all three cases, the nature of the instruments is largely determined by a taper through most of the instrument's length, ending in a rather large bell. It is impossible to retain the character of flugelhorn, euphonium or tuba with a long enough slide to play the full range chromatically. My suggestion to Lebeaux was the instrument pictured here. This is certainly not a slide flugelhorn, but has the widest bell possible on a soprano trombone, has a dual bore (.438/.460") slide and takes a flugelhorn mouthpiece. Both the deep cup of the mouthpiece and the wide bell flare contribute to a much darker timbre than typical trumpets and cornets. While not what we know as a flugelhorn sound, it is distinct from the brighter sounding instruments. This is the bell that was designed for use on Olds bugle corps bugles in G and is also used on Kanstul Stadium and Wild Thing trumpets. It was very successful and I believe that Lebeaux still plays it today.
While we're in the mood for pushing boundaries: The next photo is a piccolo trombone or slide trumpet that I made more as a novelty or experiment. This was at the time that Larry Minick was still making slide trumpets, mostly in Bb, but a few in soprano Eb that used his own piccolo trumpet bells. We both knew that this was the upper limits for a practical instrument, but I really wanted to know what could really be done with a true piccolo trombone in Bb. It actually does play well enough to be used in performances if used judiciously. I eventually sold it to John Schoolcraft of the Make Believe Brass (playing at Disneyland at the time) for use in their trombone quintet in which it was only brought out to surprise even the most savvy audience that wouldn't have known that such a thing existed. I had previously made a pair of slide trumpets with F valve similar to the top photo, that they would use for most pieces, the piccolo was only occasionally taken out of John's pocket just for fun.
Quote from: 'Robb Stewart'These two contrabass trombones are all new (not modified used instruments) and somewhat unique designs. Both are for playing the same contrabass trombone range, but each has it's own twist. The first shown here was made in 1995 for the great Los Angeles session bass trombonist, Bill Reichenbach, after many discussions about the particulars of the design and what he wanted to achieve with it. Anybody who has played a trombone with a double slide will understand Bill's reluctance to utilize this feature, but he thought that needing to use a handle on a long single slide would be worse. I convinced him that there are advantages gained by putting the four slide tubes in a single plane rather than the usual, side by side, design seen in BBb and CC trombones. Not only is it slightly lighter, but it necessitates less tube length, allowing a relatively longer bell section. Keep in mind that even though this trombone is the same pitch as an Eb tuba, it has the slide positions of an alto trombone. Another unusual feature is that it has 8 full positions in Eb rather than the usual 7 and a good 6 positions in BBb. He wanted the valves set up exactly as on his regular work horse bass trombones, both the lever positions and the relative pitch changes (BBb and GG). It also seemed ideal to have the bell in a "normal" relation to the player, although Bill does not need to gauge his slide positions by the rim. If you look closely, you might not find the main tuning slide. The upper crook on the slide pulls out for cleaning and has a very short allowance for tuning. This worked out well since this instrument is intended strictly for use in the studio where the environment is predictable, both in temperature and tuning of other players. Bill has used this instrument on all his recording gigs that called for contrabass trombone. Most of the important parts needed for this trombone were supplied by Zig Kanstul. The bell is intended for his marching baritone horn and the crooks and tubes were for various tubas. Zig specially made the slide tubes including chrome plating the inside tubes (.605" bore). The cork barrels are Olds bass trombone, although I had to make the oversize bell and slide receiver and nut assembly. The rotary valves (.656" bore) are the same that are made for my Eb tubas by Joe Marcinkiewicz and the lever assembly I made to copy those made for Bill's Conn 62H by George Strucel many years ago. I honestly don't remember what I used for the mouthpipe, but something appropriate for the bore size and a tuba mouthpiece. When Bill came to pick up the instrument, I was prepared for the fact that I might have to make some adjustments and I hoped that there would be nothing major to re-do. He picked it up and put it to his mouth and played it as if he had been playing it all his life. He is that kind of a musician; he can play any brass instrument well. He has used this trombone for many recording sessions. The fifth photo shows Bill prominently holding this trombone in the studio during a recording session for "Batman Forever" taken from Malcolm McNab's website.
The second case here precedes the first by eleven years (1984) and is related both in the fact that it is Eb as well as the fact that Bill Reichenbach borrowed this one when we were in the discussion phase of designing his. This trombone was made for Paul Chauvin, a fabulous tuba and trombone player, best known as member of Make Believe Brass which originated at Disneyland. This group was of a higher level of musicianship than one might expect from that park. Anyway, Paul asked me if I could make him a "slide tuba" for times when the MBB would all play slide trombones and slide trumpets. He wanted more than a bass trombone sound. I told him that it was impossible to have the large tapered body of even a small tuba in combination with the long cylindrical tubing needed for a trombone slide. I suggested that an interesting compromise might be to use a euphonium bell and body attached to a normal bass trombone slide. This would give him five and a half slide positions and I added the third, whole step, valve to make up for the missing hand slide length. One challenge would be holding it in playing position while freely manipulating the three valve levers. The levers are pushed with the first three fingers of the left hand whilst the thumb and fourth finger are able to grip the bell section securely. I can't claim that it is the most comfortable instrument to hold, but it works and Paul got some good use out of it. This trombone was constructed mostly out of Olds parts, as I used in so many of my early projects. The bell, branches and tuning slide are all for an Olds euphonium. The hand slide (.562" bore) and rotary valves (.585" bore) are all standard for Olds bass trombones. The valves are tuned to BBb, AAb with alternate GG slide (dependant on Bb valve) and Db (independant). It was quite a challenge to design the valve levers to be easily manipulated by the fingers, but I got it to work well. A big compromise for Paul was giving up a full 7 position glissando. After some practice, he demonstrated that it was, indeed, possible to release the whole step valve in the middle of a slide glissando, making a good imitation of a full length slide.
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ttf_JWykell
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Conical Design
Quote from: BGuttman on Aug 12, 2017, 11:34AMGot a big pile of money at your disposal? Have at it.
I don't but I'll just have to add it the bottom of the list of gear I want to get if I ever do. That puts a double short slide quad bore flugabone just underneath a valve section that I can connect to a shires tenor bell to have a good playing valve trombone. Top of that list, and f-attachment for my "normal" shires medium bore. So clearly we have a long way to go.
I don't but I'll just have to add it the bottom of the list of gear I want to get if I ever do. That puts a double short slide quad bore flugabone just underneath a valve section that I can connect to a shires tenor bell to have a good playing valve trombone. Top of that list, and f-attachment for my "normal" shires medium bore. So clearly we have a long way to go.
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ttf_Whitbey
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Conical Design
Trumpet, cornet and flugelhorn are each a little to a lot conical. As modern trumpets are much more conical then there predecessors a duo bore slide is probably just a little less then the difference between a current trumpet and cornet but still gives you a more conical horn. The other oddity of a trombone slide is as the slide moves out the bore size is larger. Never get that effect on euph.
I play duobore slides because I feel like I will blow the MP off my face with a single bore horn.
I play duobore slides because I feel like I will blow the MP off my face with a single bore horn.
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ttf_Blowero
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Conical Design
You could have a leadpipe that extends all the way to the end of the inner slide tube with constant expansion, and the tuning mechanism in the handslide, which would leave the lower slide tube as the only cylindrical section of the trombone. A flugelhorn has a cylindrical section too - the leadpipe. So you could make a trombone that is more cylindrical than a flugelhorn, but not a whole lot more.
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ttf_mr.deacon
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Quote from: Blowero on Aug 12, 2017, 12:49PMYou could have a leadpipe that extends all the way to the end of the inner slide tube with constant expansion, and the tuning mechanism in the handslide, which would leave the lower slide tube as the only cylindrical section of the trombone. A flugelhorn has a cylindrical section too - the leadpipe. So you could make a trombone that is more cylindrical than a flugelhorn, but not a whole lot more.
Brad, there was actually a guy by your booth at ITF that had leadpipes which extended like 3/4? down the slide tube and had a screw on Monette style mouthpiece.
They were interesting. They actually played pretty well, maybe even better then my setup at the time, but I lost a lot of the character and color I was getting out of my normal mouthpiece and regular leadpipe. On paper it seemed to work well but I can't imagine a professional using something like that.
Brad, there was actually a guy by your booth at ITF that had leadpipes which extended like 3/4? down the slide tube and had a screw on Monette style mouthpiece.
They were interesting. They actually played pretty well, maybe even better then my setup at the time, but I lost a lot of the character and color I was getting out of my normal mouthpiece and regular leadpipe. On paper it seemed to work well but I can't imagine a professional using something like that.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Conical Design
Perhaps some perfectly elastic metal needs to be invented so we can have our slide and our cone, too.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Here you go... the elastobone!
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ttf_Bruce the budgie
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Sweet! Had to show that to the one sitting next to me, who asked what it was made of. Guess it's time to crowdfund an expedition to Lumpistan in search of their rumored vein of high-purity unobtainium.
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ttf_Blowero
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Conical Design
Quote from: mr.deacon on Aug 12, 2017, 01:29PMBrad, there was actually a guy by your booth at ITF that had leadpipes which extended like 3/4? down the slide tube and had a screw on Monette style mouthpiece.
They were interesting. They actually played pretty well, maybe even better then my setup at the time, but I lost a lot of the character and color I was getting out of my normal mouthpiece and regular leadpipe. On paper it seemed to work well but I can't imagine a professional using something like that.
I saw that and I am kind of kicking myself because i didn't try them out. Looked very interesting, and I've heard good things about them. But yeah, I think color is exactly what you would lose if you built a slide flugelhorn. I guess the question would be whether anyone would want a trombone with an extremely dark flugel like sound.
They were interesting. They actually played pretty well, maybe even better then my setup at the time, but I lost a lot of the character and color I was getting out of my normal mouthpiece and regular leadpipe. On paper it seemed to work well but I can't imagine a professional using something like that.
I saw that and I am kind of kicking myself because i didn't try them out. Looked very interesting, and I've heard good things about them. But yeah, I think color is exactly what you would lose if you built a slide flugelhorn. I guess the question would be whether anyone would want a trombone with an extremely dark flugel like sound.
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ttf_Whitbey
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Conical Design
Quote from: robcat2075 on Aug 12, 2017, 03:30PMHere you go... the elastobone!
Hmmmmm
How about a conical F valve?
Hmmmmm
How about a conical F valve?
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ttf_robcat2075
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Conical Design
Quote from: Whitbey on Aug 13, 2017, 05:54AMHmmmmm
How about a conical F valve?
The F extension works like this...
How about a conical F valve?
The F extension works like this...
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ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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Conical Design
Quote from: JWykell on Aug 12, 2017, 11:27AMWhat if some one made a half length double slide. Basically the same design as BB flat contra, but make each leg progressively larger so it would be a quad bore slide. You could do .508/.525/.547/.562. To make it even harder to make out tunning in the slide for a fully conical bell section.
They didn't make them with progressive bores, but double slide tenor trombones (with 9-10 positions) were indeed invented in the 19th century, they just never caught on.
They didn't make them with progressive bores, but double slide tenor trombones (with 9-10 positions) were indeed invented in the 19th century, they just never caught on.
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ttf_Posaunus
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Conical Design
Quote from: Blowero on Aug 12, 2017, 12:49PMYou could have a leadpipe that extends all the way to the end of the inner slide tube with constant expansion, and the tuning mechanism in the handslide, which would leave the lower slide tube as the only cylindrical section of the trombone. ... you could make a trombone that is more cylindrical than a flugelhorn, but not a whole lot more.
Even with a full-length conical leadpipe, the lower slide tube is "the only cylindrical section" only in 1st position, with the slide all the way up. Once you move the slide out from 1st, both the upper and lower outer slide becomes a (larger) cylindrical bore segment of the instrument's air passage - with a step-change in diameter from inner to outer and back to inner! I don't see any way around this limitation. Nor does it matter much to me - I love the sound of the trombone as it is currently manufactured, acoustic liabilities and all!
Even with a full-length conical leadpipe, the lower slide tube is "the only cylindrical section" only in 1st position, with the slide all the way up. Once you move the slide out from 1st, both the upper and lower outer slide becomes a (larger) cylindrical bore segment of the instrument's air passage - with a step-change in diameter from inner to outer and back to inner! I don't see any way around this limitation. Nor does it matter much to me - I love the sound of the trombone as it is currently manufactured, acoustic liabilities and all!
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ttf_Blowero
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Conical Design
Quote from: Posaunus on Aug 13, 2017, 09:32PMEven with a full-length conical leadpipe, the lower slide tube is "the only cylindrical section" only in 1st position, with the slide all the way up. Once you move the slide out from 1st, both the upper and lower outer slide becomes a (larger) cylindrical bore segment of the instrument's air passage - with a step-change in diameter from inner to outer and back to inner! I don't see any way around this limitation. Nor does it matter much to me - I love the sound of the trombone as it is currently manufactured, acoustic liabilities and all!
The valve section of a flugelhorn is cylindrical, so engaging the valves increases the proportion of cylindrical tubing, just as extending the slide increases the proportion of cylindrical tubing in a trombone. The valve slides all cause step changes in bore as well, so this phenomenon would not be unique to an instrument with a slide. It's true that the cylindrical section with the slide extended would be of a larger bore, but I can't imagine that being a bad thing if your goal were to create a darker sounding instrument.
The valve section of a flugelhorn is cylindrical, so engaging the valves increases the proportion of cylindrical tubing, just as extending the slide increases the proportion of cylindrical tubing in a trombone. The valve slides all cause step changes in bore as well, so this phenomenon would not be unique to an instrument with a slide. It's true that the cylindrical section with the slide extended would be of a larger bore, but I can't imagine that being a bad thing if your goal were to create a darker sounding instrument.
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ttf_Radar
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Conical Design
Since the Euphonium already covers that tonal color pallet in that range, how useful would a difficult to design and build slide version be? There probably would be a very limited market for it.
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ttf_davdud101
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Conical Design
I was thinking about this yesterday - albeit, more shallowly than this thread has become. Trumpet players can come in with a vast array of horns all for different tasks, each with completely different sounds and varying mechanics - from trumpet to cornet to flugel, to picc to Eb/D/C/A/whatever you can think of.
I don't think a super-conical trombone would be that amazing, personally... isn't a close simulation to use a small mouthpiece in a bass trombone? The thing'd be HUGE and not at all conducive to on-site doubling.
I'd actually prefer a VERY narrow-bore trombone that takes an alto horn mouthpiece with a double-wrapped 'jazz slide', a set of traditional piston valves, plus independent F and D triggers.
I don't think a super-conical trombone would be that amazing, personally... isn't a close simulation to use a small mouthpiece in a bass trombone? The thing'd be HUGE and not at all conducive to on-site doubling.
I'd actually prefer a VERY narrow-bore trombone that takes an alto horn mouthpiece with a double-wrapped 'jazz slide', a set of traditional piston valves, plus independent F and D triggers.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Conical Design
A truly conical trombone is about as possible as a triangle with two parallel sides.
We'll never have to worry about what would happen if we had one.
We'll never have to worry about what would happen if we had one.
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ttf_JWykell
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Conical Design
Herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXbASABjtS8&lc=z13dthzzky2nzvntk23zwdwpop2ix1cwf04.1493466299853169 is a video of James Morrison on one of his Schagerl instruments. It is a semi-conical bass trumpet with rotary valves. It sounds a lot more like a flugel than a euphonium does. The other really cool feature is that it has a second tuning slide seperate from the main tuning. When he wants to gliss into notes he extends the slide before he plays the note. That instrument would cover pretty much anything that a trombone or a euphonium wouldn't short of a gliss of more than a whole step.
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ttf_davdud101
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Conical Design
Quote from: JWykell on Aug 14, 2017, 10:00AMHerehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXbASABjtS8&lc=z13dthzzky2nzvntk23zwdwpop2ix1cwf04.1493466299853169 is a video of James Morrison on one of his Schagerl instruments. It is a semi-conical bass trumpet with rotary valves. It sounds a lot more like a flugel than a euphonium does. The other really cool feature is that it has a second tuning slide seperate from the main tuning. When he wants to gliss into notes he extends the slide before he plays the note. That instrument would cover pretty much anything that a trombone or a euphonium wouldn't short of a gliss of more than a whole step.
I used to watch this video day in and day out when I was in middle school Has he ever used this on a recording or in-concert? I find it difficult to find him playing things other than trumpet without digging - especially for someone playing at his level on so many instruments.
I used to watch this video day in and day out when I was in middle school
Has he ever used this on a recording or in-concert? I find it difficult to find him playing things other than trumpet without digging - especially for someone playing at his level on so many instruments.-
ttf_JWykell
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Conical Design
No idea, I just find some of the concepts of that instrument very interesting. In some ways I kind of wish I could have a valve section some times. But a larger bore one.
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ttf_BillO
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Conical Design
Quote from: robcat2075 on Aug 14, 2017, 09:14AMA truly conical trombone is about as possible as a triangle with two parallel sides.
We'll never have to worry about what would happen if we had one.
If you wanted to get all mathematical about this, it is possible to draw a triangle on a sphere such that two of the lines are parallel at the point the cross a common great circle.
Jus' sayin'.
We'll never have to worry about what would happen if we had one.
If you wanted to get all mathematical about this, it is possible to draw a triangle on a sphere such that two of the lines are parallel at the point the cross a common great circle.
Jus' sayin'.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Conical Design
Most of the triangle rules I've seen deal with plane geometry. Solid geometry is another animal.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Conical Design
Quote from: BillO on Aug 14, 2017, 11:27AMIf you wanted to get all mathematical about this, it is possible to draw a triangle on a sphere such that two of the lines are parallel at the point the cross a common great circle.
Jus' sayin'.
I hear what you're sayin'. Now we just need to get over to the alternate universe where that will work on a trombone.
I think it will be the one where Spock has a mullet.
Jus' sayin'.
I hear what you're sayin'. Now we just need to get over to the alternate universe where that will work on a trombone.
I think it will be the one where Spock has a mullet.
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ttf_BillO
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Conical Design
Quote from: robcat2075 on Aug 14, 2017, 11:40AMI hear what you're sayin'. Now we just need to get over to the alternate universe where that will work on a trombone.
I think it will be the one where Spock has a mullet.
You mean this one?
I think it will be the one where Spock has a mullet.
You mean this one?
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ttf_robcat2075
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Conical Design
Ouch.
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ttf_Blowero
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Conical Design
The only truly conical brass instrument is a valveless bugle or horn. If there is any kind of pitch adjustment mechanism, then it's not conical. A flugelhorn is not truly conical. Couturier got closer than anyone else ever did, but even his instruments were not truly conical. And the reason we don't all play Couturier instruments today is because it doesn't matter if it's 100% truly conical. Flugelhorn and cornet are both supposed to be conical, yet they sound nothing like each other. Everyone is putting too much emphasis on the conical aspect, and not enough on the rate of expansion of the taper.
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ttf_robcat2075
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Conical Design
I suppose the closest extant instrument that is conical and is playable for more than bugle purposes would be the Ophicleide or the Keyed Bugle, although not continuously adjustable like a trombone.
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ttf_Exzaclee
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Conical Design
I don't understand what could actually be accomplished by making a "conical" trombone. The trombone, when played right, already has the tone quality that flugel players are trying so hard to emulate. Dual bore horns like the 2B are pretty "mellifluous" (if that's the right word) as it is. Go too far in that direction and eventually you lose attack and core. A "slide euphonium" would just be an inarticulate, drunken, cumbersome mess, like me after a bottle of 18 year Laphroaig.
Okay, that may be a bit harsh... but I think if you want to experiment with conical trambones, first you have to realize that for it to be "truly conical" is impossible for practical reasons. Second, you have to realize it's been done.
JJ Johnson had a horn that Larry Minick built for him that had a dual bore slide, and a bell section that expanded throughout to a 12.5" bell. I reckon his interest in this comes from his success with the 2B slide/3B bell section combo he used for much of his career. As y'all are aware, the 2B is dual bore, which makes it about as close to conical as you can get with a slide for all practical purposes. I don't know how he fared with the horn Minick built for him, I don't know of any recordings he did with it (although I suspect he may have used it on some of his later stuff judging by the huge difference in his sound on some recordings). I only know of one anecdote from a friend who played it and remarked that it "kinds sucked." I imagine it'd be a horn you'd have to really get used to to sound good on.
If you want to jump off in those waters, start off with dual bore horns. Match them up with larger bell sections than they were designed for, like the 2B/3B combo. Get a .500/.508 with an 8.5" bell, you may get something you really like that still sounds like a trombone. Mayhap even a .500/.525 with a 9"? Just take the time to learn where the notes are on the slide. Dual bore horns usually have "quirks" in the overtone series.
Okay, that may be a bit harsh... but I think if you want to experiment with conical trambones, first you have to realize that for it to be "truly conical" is impossible for practical reasons. Second, you have to realize it's been done.
JJ Johnson had a horn that Larry Minick built for him that had a dual bore slide, and a bell section that expanded throughout to a 12.5" bell. I reckon his interest in this comes from his success with the 2B slide/3B bell section combo he used for much of his career. As y'all are aware, the 2B is dual bore, which makes it about as close to conical as you can get with a slide for all practical purposes. I don't know how he fared with the horn Minick built for him, I don't know of any recordings he did with it (although I suspect he may have used it on some of his later stuff judging by the huge difference in his sound on some recordings). I only know of one anecdote from a friend who played it and remarked that it "kinds sucked." I imagine it'd be a horn you'd have to really get used to to sound good on.
If you want to jump off in those waters, start off with dual bore horns. Match them up with larger bell sections than they were designed for, like the 2B/3B combo. Get a .500/.508 with an 8.5" bell, you may get something you really like that still sounds like a trombone. Mayhap even a .500/.525 with a 9"? Just take the time to learn where the notes are on the slide. Dual bore horns usually have "quirks" in the overtone series.
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ttf_sabutin
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Conical Design
Quote from: Exzaclee on Aug 14, 2017, 03:02PMI don't understand what could actually be accomplished by making a "conical" trombone. The trombone, when played right, already has the tone quality that flugel players are trying so hard to emulate. Dual bore horns like the 2B are pretty "mellifluous" (if that's the right word) as it is. Go too far in that direction and eventually you lose attack and core. A "slide euphonium" would just be an inarticulate, drunken, cumbersome mess, like me after a bottle of 18 year Laphroaig.
Okay, that may be a bit harsh... but I think if you want to experiment with conical trambones, first you have to realize that for it to be "truly conical" is impossible for practical reasons. Second, you have to realize it's been done.
JJ Johnson had a horn that Larry Minick built for him that had a dual bore slide, and a bell section that expanded throughout to a 12.5" bell. I reckon his interest in this comes from his success with the 2B slide/3B bell section combo he used for much of his career. As y'all are aware, the 2B is dual bore, which makes it about as close to conical as you can get with a slide for all practical purposes. I don't know how he fared with the horn Minick built for him, I don't know of any recordings he did with it (although I suspect he may have used it on some of his later stuff judging by the huge difference in his sound on some recordings). I only know of one anecdote from a friend who played it and remarked that it "kinds sucked." I imagine it'd be a horn you'd have to really get used to to sound good on.
If you want to jump off in those waters, start off with dual bore horns. Match them up with larger bell sections than they were designed for, like the 2B/3B combo. Get a .500/.508 with an 8.5" bell, you may get something you really like that still sounds like a trombone. Mayhap even a .500/.525 with a 9"? Just take the time to learn where the notes are on the slide. Dual bore horns usually have "quirks" in the overtone series.
I heard J.J. live on this horn at The Blue Note in NYC. He didn't like it much, it seems. Me neither.
Neither fish not fowl.
So it goes.
We do keep trying...
S.
Okay, that may be a bit harsh... but I think if you want to experiment with conical trambones, first you have to realize that for it to be "truly conical" is impossible for practical reasons. Second, you have to realize it's been done.
JJ Johnson had a horn that Larry Minick built for him that had a dual bore slide, and a bell section that expanded throughout to a 12.5" bell. I reckon his interest in this comes from his success with the 2B slide/3B bell section combo he used for much of his career. As y'all are aware, the 2B is dual bore, which makes it about as close to conical as you can get with a slide for all practical purposes. I don't know how he fared with the horn Minick built for him, I don't know of any recordings he did with it (although I suspect he may have used it on some of his later stuff judging by the huge difference in his sound on some recordings). I only know of one anecdote from a friend who played it and remarked that it "kinds sucked." I imagine it'd be a horn you'd have to really get used to to sound good on.
If you want to jump off in those waters, start off with dual bore horns. Match them up with larger bell sections than they were designed for, like the 2B/3B combo. Get a .500/.508 with an 8.5" bell, you may get something you really like that still sounds like a trombone. Mayhap even a .500/.525 with a 9"? Just take the time to learn where the notes are on the slide. Dual bore horns usually have "quirks" in the overtone series.
I heard J.J. live on this horn at The Blue Note in NYC. He didn't like it much, it seems. Me neither.
Neither fish not fowl.
So it goes.
We do keep trying...
S.
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ttf_BillO
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Conical Design
Quote from: Exzaclee on Aug 14, 2017, 03:02PM... would just be an inarticulate, drunken, cumbersome mess, like me after a bottle of 18 year Laphroaig.
One of my favorites.
One of my favorites.
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ttf_BillO
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Conical Design
There is a huge variety of trombones out there right now. I have a Shires outfit I can configure 16 different ways, and that's just a 'starter' kit without taking mouthpieces into account. No other instrument, as far as I know, has this ability to customize the sound. Even leaving modular trombones out of it, the available variety is dizzying. How many Conn 88H variants are available?
The myriad of trombones we have to choose from sound great the way they are. Change them too much, and they are not trombones anymore.
The myriad of trombones we have to choose from sound great the way they are. Change them too much, and they are not trombones anymore.
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ttf_Euphanasia
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Conical Design
Quote from: Blowero on Aug 14, 2017, 01:34PM And the reason we don't all play Couturier instruments today is because it doesn't matter if it's 100% truly conical. Flugelhorn and cornet are both supposed to be conical, yet they sound nothing like each other. Everyone is putting too much emphasis on the conical aspect, and not enough on the rate of expansion of the taper.
Exactly. I've owned both a Couturier conical-bore trombone and a Couturier conical valve trombone. Neither played differently from run-of-the-mill slide or valve trombones from the era. The conical-bore trombone was brilliantly designed, but it just sounded like a trombone.
Most of the tricky part in Couturier's slide trombone design is to avoid any step-down in bore, like you get where the lower outer tube meets the lower inner. There are no reductions in bore at any point in a Couturier slide trombone.
Exactly. I've owned both a Couturier conical-bore trombone and a Couturier conical valve trombone. Neither played differently from run-of-the-mill slide or valve trombones from the era. The conical-bore trombone was brilliantly designed, but it just sounded like a trombone.
Most of the tricky part in Couturier's slide trombone design is to avoid any step-down in bore, like you get where the lower outer tube meets the lower inner. There are no reductions in bore at any point in a Couturier slide trombone.
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ttf_davdud101
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Conical Design
Quote from: BillO on Aug 14, 2017, 06:40PMThe myriad of trombones we have to choose from sound great the way they are. Change them too much, and they are not trombones anymore.
But, to a greater of lesser degree - that would be the goal with creating a super-conical trombone-like instrument; to build something on similar principals to how a trombone functions, but it's actually a trombone but rather a cousin of the trombone, like trumpet to flugel.. right?
But, to a greater of lesser degree - that would be the goal with creating a super-conical trombone-like instrument; to build something on similar principals to how a trombone functions, but it's actually a trombone but rather a cousin of the trombone, like trumpet to flugel.. right?
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ttf_BillO
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Conical Design
You mean like a slide bass flugal?
Sure, I'll go along with that.
Sure, I'll go along with that.
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ttf_Tbonedude
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Conical Design
I meddled around in Sketchup for a bit and this popped out.
This instrument, I believe, is the topic of the discussion. An almost entirely conical slide horn, with exception of a couple steps in the bore.
I hesitate to call it a slide euphonium, or even a baritone. It could be labeled as a slide tenor horn, or a slide bass flugelhorn for sake of discussion.
Setup is similar to Couturier conical slide trombone, where the lower leg is reversed.
Bore size at the receiver is 0.547, up to 0.562 at the end of the upper leg.
The slide crook is single bore 0.597.
The lower inner expands from 0.597 to around 0.638 at the end of the inner.
A bore step from 0.638 to around 0.650 occurs just before the slide-bell tenon.
Oversized rotary valve with 0.680-bored F attachment.
Conical expansion through the bell section to an (admittedly small) 8" bell.
The question becomes whether it's viable. We have the technology- basically it's a bunch of constant-taper leadpipes working together. Even the main tuning slide legs are internally tapered. On the other hand, I don't see much purpose for this other than novelty. There is zero music written for such a horn (to my knowledge). So then, a handful would be built, only to quickly enter the same realm as double-bell euphoniums... collector's items, only to be seen for a handful of performances and Tuba Christmas (would this horn qualify for use in Tuba Christmas?)
This instrument, I believe, is the topic of the discussion. An almost entirely conical slide horn, with exception of a couple steps in the bore.
I hesitate to call it a slide euphonium, or even a baritone. It could be labeled as a slide tenor horn, or a slide bass flugelhorn for sake of discussion.
Setup is similar to Couturier conical slide trombone, where the lower leg is reversed.
Bore size at the receiver is 0.547, up to 0.562 at the end of the upper leg.
The slide crook is single bore 0.597.
The lower inner expands from 0.597 to around 0.638 at the end of the inner.
A bore step from 0.638 to around 0.650 occurs just before the slide-bell tenon.
Oversized rotary valve with 0.680-bored F attachment.
Conical expansion through the bell section to an (admittedly small) 8" bell.
The question becomes whether it's viable. We have the technology- basically it's a bunch of constant-taper leadpipes working together. Even the main tuning slide legs are internally tapered. On the other hand, I don't see much purpose for this other than novelty. There is zero music written for such a horn (to my knowledge). So then, a handful would be built, only to quickly enter the same realm as double-bell euphoniums... collector's items, only to be seen for a handful of performances and Tuba Christmas (would this horn qualify for use in Tuba Christmas?)
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ttf_Euphanasia
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Conical Design
Quote from: Tbonedude on Aug 15, 2017, 07:10AMI meddled around in Sketchup for a bit and this popped out.
This instrument, I believe, is the topic of the discussion. An almost entirely conical slide horn, with exception of a couple steps in the bore.
I think it's important to look at complex designs like the Couturier and to figure out why they went to such great lengths to create a complicated design. Now, if Couturier were German rather then French, there would be no need to explain the over-engineering.
Couturier used an ingenious and complicated plan to reverse the lower slide tube, thus ensuring no step-downs in bore. Your design ends with a bore of .638 at the end of the bottom slide. That means your lower inner's outer diameter will be at least .668, and the lower slide outer will be at least .10 bigger, or .678.
Your lower handslide will have a jump from .678 to .597--a difference of around .80, and you'll get a variable-length section of tubing that's .80 bigger than the section that comes after it. I'm certain that would cause intonation problems, and that Couturier's product development included a prototypes with similar design which weren't playable.
This instrument, I believe, is the topic of the discussion. An almost entirely conical slide horn, with exception of a couple steps in the bore.
I think it's important to look at complex designs like the Couturier and to figure out why they went to such great lengths to create a complicated design. Now, if Couturier were German rather then French, there would be no need to explain the over-engineering.
Couturier used an ingenious and complicated plan to reverse the lower slide tube, thus ensuring no step-downs in bore. Your design ends with a bore of .638 at the end of the bottom slide. That means your lower inner's outer diameter will be at least .668, and the lower slide outer will be at least .10 bigger, or .678.
Your lower handslide will have a jump from .678 to .597--a difference of around .80, and you'll get a variable-length section of tubing that's .80 bigger than the section that comes after it. I'm certain that would cause intonation problems, and that Couturier's product development included a prototypes with similar design which weren't playable.
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ttf_davdud101
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Conical Design
Quote from: Tbonedude on Aug 15, 2017, 07:10AMI meddled around in Sketchup for a bit and this popped out.
This instrument, I believe, is the topic of the discussion. An almost entirely conical slide horn, with exception of a couple steps in the bore.
Nicely done, Tbonedude. Didn't know Skechup could do such complex models like this.
I think (besides the fact that the intonation would probably be a PITA) that thing would be HEAVY. And (sorry I didn't scoure the specs) what kind of mouthpiece would be appropriate for that sort of horn? The more I think about it, the more I realize that a fabulous thought about something like this would likely translate into something that's little more than a chore to have around.
It's definitely by design not what I'd consider a "doublers' alternative" instrument, like flugel or cornet.
This instrument, I believe, is the topic of the discussion. An almost entirely conical slide horn, with exception of a couple steps in the bore.
Nicely done, Tbonedude. Didn't know Skechup could do such complex models like this.
I think (besides the fact that the intonation would probably be a PITA) that thing would be HEAVY. And (sorry I didn't scoure the specs) what kind of mouthpiece would be appropriate for that sort of horn? The more I think about it, the more I realize that a fabulous thought about something like this would likely translate into something that's little more than a chore to have around.
It's definitely by design not what I'd consider a "doublers' alternative" instrument, like flugel or cornet.
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ttf_Tbonedude
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Conical Design
Quote from: Euphanasia on Aug 15, 2017, 07:37AMI think it's important to look at complex designs like the Couturier and to figure out why they went to such great lengths to create a complicated design. Now, if Couturier were German rather then French, there would be no need to explain the over-engineering.
Couturier used an ingenious and complicated plan to reverse the lower slide tube, thus ensuring no step-downs in bore. Your design ends with a bore of .638 at the end of the bottom slide. That means your lower inner's outer diameter will be at least .668, and the lower slide outer will be at least .10 bigger, or .678.
The lower tube on my design is reversed, very similar to the Couturier. My design has no step-downs in bore, but it does have some significant steps up, which is why I figure the intonation might be whack. I'm not sure if it would be able to play well. I will say that it would be playable, in the same way that a straight length of PVC is playable.
Quote from: davdud101 on Aug 15, 2017, 08:10AMNicely done, Tbonedude. Didn't know Skechup could do such complex models like this.
I think (besides the fact that the intonation would probably be a PITA) that thing would be HEAVY. And (sorry I didn't scoure the specs) what kind of mouthpiece would be appropriate for that sort of horn? The more I think about it, the more I realize that a fabulous thought about something like this would likely translate into something that's little more than a chore to have around.
It's definitely by design not what I'd consider a "doublers' alternative" instrument, like flugel or cornet.
Sketchup can do things more complicated than this, it just takes a lot of time (this model took 11 hours). I have no clue what mouthpiece would suit it best. My shot in the dark aims at whatever you'd use on a euphonium.
Couturier used an ingenious and complicated plan to reverse the lower slide tube, thus ensuring no step-downs in bore. Your design ends with a bore of .638 at the end of the bottom slide. That means your lower inner's outer diameter will be at least .668, and the lower slide outer will be at least .10 bigger, or .678.
The lower tube on my design is reversed, very similar to the Couturier. My design has no step-downs in bore, but it does have some significant steps up, which is why I figure the intonation might be whack. I'm not sure if it would be able to play well. I will say that it would be playable, in the same way that a straight length of PVC is playable.
Quote from: davdud101 on Aug 15, 2017, 08:10AMNicely done, Tbonedude. Didn't know Skechup could do such complex models like this.
I think (besides the fact that the intonation would probably be a PITA) that thing would be HEAVY. And (sorry I didn't scoure the specs) what kind of mouthpiece would be appropriate for that sort of horn? The more I think about it, the more I realize that a fabulous thought about something like this would likely translate into something that's little more than a chore to have around.
It's definitely by design not what I'd consider a "doublers' alternative" instrument, like flugel or cornet.
Sketchup can do things more complicated than this, it just takes a lot of time (this model took 11 hours). I have no clue what mouthpiece would suit it best. My shot in the dark aims at whatever you'd use on a euphonium.
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ttf_Euphanasia
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Conical Design
Quote from: Tbonedude on Aug 15, 2017, 08:41AMThe lower tube on my design is reversed, very similar to the Courtois.
I missed the sentence where you described that. So, is the bottom leg floating? It looks like a traditional slide handle, so if the handle is connected to the bottom outer (which is stationary) how can the inner (which is connected at the crook) move?
And it's "Couturier," not "Courtois."
I missed the sentence where you described that. So, is the bottom leg floating? It looks like a traditional slide handle, so if the handle is connected to the bottom outer (which is stationary) how can the inner (which is connected at the crook) move?
And it's "Couturier," not "Courtois."
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ttf_Tbonedude
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Conical Design
Quote from: Euphanasia on Aug 15, 2017, 08:48AMThen is the bottom leg floating? It looks like a traditional slide handle, so if it's connected to the bottom outer (which is stationary) how can the inner (which is connected at the crook) move?
And it's "Couturier," not "Courtois."
Thanks for the correction, I thought something was odd.
The handle is only connected on the upper side. The other end of the handle gets very close to the stationary upper outer, but isn't connected, so there are more options regarding your grip. Notice the large chunk of metal on the upper side- this is to keep the handle from breaking off during fast passages... the slide would be heavy.
And it's "Couturier," not "Courtois."
Thanks for the correction, I thought something was odd.
The handle is only connected on the upper side. The other end of the handle gets very close to the stationary upper outer, but isn't connected, so there are more options regarding your grip. Notice the large chunk of metal on the upper side- this is to keep the handle from breaking off during fast passages... the slide would be heavy.
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ttf_davdud101
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Conical Design
Quote from: Tbonedude on Aug 15, 2017, 08:41AMSketchup can do things more complicated than this, it just takes a lot of time (this model took 11 hours). I have no clue what mouthpiece would suit it best. My shot in the dark aims at whatever you'd use on a euphonium.
If I may offer a free alternative with a REALLY small learning curve that makes modeling stuff like this MUCH faster - like this sort-of trombone-themed image I made several years ago;
http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4378.0;attach=10897;image
Give the software Anim8or a shot.
It may not be CAD-accurate design, and it IS geared towards modelling (even while sporting a moniker like Anim8or), but I like to think it holds its own in the free software world.
If I may offer a free alternative with a REALLY small learning curve that makes modeling stuff like this MUCH faster - like this sort-of trombone-themed image I made several years ago;
http://www.anim8or.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4378.0;attach=10897;image
Give the software Anim8or a shot.
It may not be CAD-accurate design, and it IS geared towards modelling (even while sporting a moniker like Anim8or), but I like to think it holds its own in the free software world.
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ttf_BillO
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Conical Design
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