Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

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ttf_EWadie99
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Before I start this topic, I would like to make a disclaimer:

This topic is NOT meant to be controversial in any means.  This is for curiosity and interest and the purpose of this topic is to break the stereotypes of those said horns/brands.  Now, let's begin!

There's been something I've been thinking about for a long time now, and here are the questions I have in question:

1) I always had the impression that Bach's tend to be "dark" for jazz/big band settings.  Just out of curiosity, does any still or used to use any Bach 50 basses while it be MT. Vernon, Early Elkhart (Corporation), modern, etc. in those settings?

2) Has anyone used a King Duo Gravis Silversonic or regular (or any King bass really) in a more legit settings like; Orchestra, Symphony, Wind Ensemble, or Brass Bands?  I always thought that they are a little too much for legit settings and just aren't suited for them.  How were the results?  Just another curious question.

Any thoughts?



ttf_Terraplane8Bob
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Terraplane8Bob »

I played a King "Duo Gravis Silversonic" for at least 20 years of a 25 year run in a major symphony orchestra, and even though I alternated it with a King 8B, I still think I could easily have used the Duo Gravis as my only horn throughout my entire career.  The general belief that it was unsuited for orchestral use is plain wrong.  Just sayin' --------- Cheers !!  Bob
ttf_tbathras
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_tbathras »

I often wonder how much the "placebo effect" has in this area. i.e. if a Duo Gravis is said to be the quintessential commercial horn, then how much of the playing characteristics are from the horn and how much are from you manipulating the sound because you have a strong sense that "if I play this horn, it will sound 'right'".  And if you tried to play it in an orchestra, but in your head "that's wrong", then by virtue of your own thoughts, it won't sound right because you won't (can't, due to your bias) make it.

Don't get me wrong, equipment makes a difference, but I think ultimately our input makes the biggest difference and I think we have more control over it than one might think.

I wonder what would happen if you found someone who had no bias about horns because they grew up under a rock and you handed them a DG and said "this is THE orchestral horn" and also handed them a canon with dual axials and said "this is THE horn for jazz/commercial" what the outcome would be.  Image
ttf_Burgerbob
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Burgerbob »

I used my single 50B in a big band for quite a while. However, it was not the best horn for the job- Bachs tend to need too much volume to get that "snap" in the sound, which means more work for the player and too many decibels to get the sound right.

I can use my current Bach in a big band, but it has the same issue. I would definitely want a lighter, faster horn for that setting if I did it a lot.
ttf_BGuttman
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_BGuttman »

I've seen a lot of Bach 50's in big band.  Orchestral players tend to like Conn or Bach basses, although I play my King 7B in orchestra with nobody complaining a bit.

I think commercial players tend to look to the lighter Conn sound (or King).  One problem often encountered in Big Band is that there are 3 small bore tenors and too big a bass can sound wrong.  In fact, a dual trigger .547" horn might actually fit with 3 small tenors better than a double trigger bass.

A "graduated" Big Band, where the top two are small bore and the 3rd is a Medium or Large bore can fit better with a large bass.

Fact is, if you are an amateur player and can only afford or justify a single instrument, you use what you have.
ttf_EWadie99
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 02, 2017, 07:55PMI've seen a lot of Bach 50's in big band.  Orchestral players tend to like Conn or Bach basses, although I play my King 7B in orchestra with nobody complaining a bit.

I think commercial players tend to look to the lighter Conn sound (or King).  One problem often encountered in Big Band is that there are 3 small bore tenors and too big a bass can sound wrong.  In fact, a dual trigger .547" horn might actually fit with 3 small tenors better than a double trigger bass.

A "graduated" Big Band, where the top two are small bore and the 3rd is a Medium or Large bore can fit better with a large bass.

Fact is, if you are an amateur player and can only afford or justify a single instrument, you use what you have.
Are they're any brands that make two valve tenors other than Greenhoe, its the only brand I can think of but the concept of a double valve tenor sounds interesting.

Quote from: Terraplane8Bob on Dec 02, 2017, 06:46PMI played a King "Duo Gravis Silversonic" for at least 20 years of a 25 year run in a major symphony orchestra, and even though I alternated it with a King 8B, I still think I could easily have used the Duo Gravis as my only horn throughout my entire career.  The general belief that it was unsuited for orchestral use is plain wrong.  Just sayin' --------- Cheers !!  Bob
I saw your topic about the King Duo Gravis Silversonic, and I found it very enlightening!  I wish there wasn't many prejudices against any horn for different genres.  I wish they're more young inspired players like myself would appreciate such nice classic horns, I'm pretty sure the younger players on here do have a liking for them, but I'm saying in general.

Interesting posts so far everyone!  I have seen a high school jazz band perform two years back at Central Michigan University's Jazz Weekend which the bass bone player was using a Bach 50B.  Sounded good but, I'm not the player so I cant comment on how it felt.  I heard forum member "Ormsby" play a King Duo Gravis Silversonic on one of the soundtracks of Robocop TV series and love how it sounded!  To each his/her own I suppose...
ttf_mr.deacon
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_mr.deacon »

Something you always have to be conscious of is blend. Playing in a section where everyone is using vintage horns (or vintage style horns) is a much different vibe then playing in a section where everyone is playing giant Edwards or Shires setups.

Some vintage basses just can't keep up with the volume of the really big tenor setups... hence why you get the comment about the King Duo Gravis basses being bright. They only sound bright because when you match the volume of these humongous tenors the Duo Gravis lights up like a candle and the other horns are designed to stay dark throughout their volume.

I think there is something to be said for having a horn that can do it all. Wether that horn ends up being a vintage or modern horn is all personal preference. Personally I seem to be able to do it with vintage horns better then I can with most modern horns... though I very much want to buy a fitted Shires or M&W one of these days as a backup horn Image

I also second Burgerbobs comment about Bach's in a big band. I have the same feeling.
ttf_JasonDonnelly
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_JasonDonnelly »

Personally, I don't have too much issue with getting a nice big band sound on my Bach 50, but that's probably because I currently don't play too much classical bone.
ttf_Doug Elliott
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Doug Elliott »

It's more about how you play than what you play.  And that applies to tenors, altos, and sackbuts too.
I've played with Bach players who got plenty of snap, and Duo Gravis players who got none.
ttf_jimkinkella
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_jimkinkella »

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 02, 2017, 10:07PMIt's more about how you play than what you play.  And that applies to tenors, altos, and sackbuts too.
I've played with Bach players who got plenty of snap, and Duo Gravis players who got none.

Doug's got the best answer so far - by far.

Every horn is a system.
That system must include the input, which is the player.
Every system includes feedback and reaction.
It's not a simple system.
It's not a 1:1 system, not everyone gets the same change in output from a same change in input.

The trick is to find a horn that does what you need, and does it in a way that's comfortable for you


 

ttf_Stan
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Stan »

This is a generalization, but I’ve found it to be true in my limited experience:

I read an interview with Bill Reichenbach where the interviewer asked him what kind of horn he liked.  He said the best horn was a horn that “drove to the gig and played itself.”  Barring that, he was always looking for something that was easy to play and easy to hold.  Considering that commercial players play a lot more in the average sitting that orchestra players, they may (as a group) prefer instruments that are lighter.  Orchestra players can afford to use a bigger, heavier instrument and a larger mouthpiece.  They’re not playing for 5 solid hours.  As instrument construction has moved towards lighter and easier since the 90s, this trend is becoming less noticeable to my eyes.
ttf_Dan Hine
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Dan Hine »

Easy to hold?  Crazy talk!!   Image
ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Gabe Langfur »

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 02, 2017, 10:07PMIt's more about how you play than what you play.  And that applies to tenors, altos, and sackbuts too.
I've played with Bach players who got plenty of snap, and Duo Gravis players who got none.

Exactly. Ray Premru used to demonstrate it as having mostly to do with the articulation and - at least as important - what you do with the sustain immediately after the articulation.
ttf_bonesmarsh
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_bonesmarsh »

Gabe-

The answers gleaned from the decades of Ray's professional life are great. But how do you translate those lessons to a high schooler who knows only what they READ secondhand from internet chat rooms, and knows only what they READ online.

When you can develop an app that translates decades of hard hard work, and experience and muscle memory, into something that will fit into a teen brain by just reading a screen, we'll be getting somewhere in the trombone world.
ttf_Dan Hine
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Dan Hine »

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 03, 2017, 06:28AMBut how do you translate those lessons to a high schooler who knows only what they READ secondhand from internet chat rooms, and knows only what they READ online.


First, by not talking down to them because you believe all they know is what they read secondhand online.  Everyone wants to be respected, regardless of age.
ttf_BGuttman
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Quote from: Dan Hine on Dec 03, 2017, 07:36AMFirst, by not talking down to them because you believe all they know is what they read secondhand online.  Everyone wants to be respected, regardless of age.

Bravo, Dan.  You never learn unless you ask questions.  Anybody should feel free to ask whatever they want.  Our job is to explain in clear language what the situation is.  We are all teachers, after all.
ttf_Terraplane8Bob
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Terraplane8Bob »

Quote from Mr. Deacon : "Some vintage basses just can't keep up with the volume of the really big tenor setups... hence why you get the comment about the King Duo Gravis basses being bright. They only sound bright because when you match the volume of these humongous tenors the Duo Gravis lights up like a candle and the other horns are designed to stay dark throughout their volume." Good observation Mr.D!
           
   It occurred to me that the Duo Gravis was a great match when our orchestra section consisted of three Conn 88Hs on the top and the Duo Gravis on the bottom.  As the years went on and one player retired [Bob Isele] and one went to the post at The Eastman School of Music [John Marcellus], Bachs crept into the section.  Dave Finlayson [who was pirated by Zubin Mehta for the NY Philharmonic after hearing him play the Mahler 3rd solo part with the NSO] also played an 88H until his departure.  Once the tenor section was playing all Bach horns, intonation got "squirrley" and then the decision to put bass slides onto tenor bells knocked everything cockeyed. Trying to match two "semi-basses" on the top would have to be accomplished with an instrument that wasn't yet invented !  Perhaps a horn with the bore and bell flare of a contrabass trombone, but the length of a bass trombone ? As long as trombonists can easily change the "system" as designed by swapping out slides, leadpipes, mouthpieces, bells, tuning crooks, braces etc.------- a standard of reference will be forever elusive.
   Being an audiophile ever since the term was coined, I noticed several "high-end" companies who firmly encouraged that their various components be used together as a "system" instead of using components of different manufacturers together. The NAIM company made it virtually impossible to use an outsider's component in their system by using unique cabling and terminations only compatible with NAIM.   The Mark Levinson company used rare choices of terminations called "Fischer" or "CAMAC" which again made it difficult to intermix components of various companies.  The KRELL company used a similar trick.  In every instance, the "systems" that I heard were definitely superior to setups using various components.  Even the early "Victrola" was a "system" approach.  Music was recorded acoustically [no electric microphones] and reproduced acoustically through a vibrating diaphragm which was amplified acoustically through an expanding horn.  If you've never heard a good example of a totally acoustic Victrola "system", you really should.  They sound amazing and will make you wonder just how far we've really come in the world of audio !
   In truth, I guess a trombone IS a Victrola in most ways !  Now, ain't that a wonder ?    Cheers !!  Bob


ttf_EWadie99
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 03, 2017, 06:28AMGabe-

The answers gleaned from the decades of Ray's professional life are great. But how do you translate those lessons to a high schooler who knows only what they READ secondhand from internet chat rooms, and knows only what they READ online.

When you can develop an app that translates decades of hard hard work, and experience and muscle memory, into something that will fit into a teen brain by just reading a screen, we'll be getting somewhere in the trombone world.
Oh really Kevin?  Image You know, instead of saying BS like "reading secondhand off the net" and sounding like a keyboard warrior (it looks like to me based on your context), how about you give out your experience with any horn that is said to not be appropriate in those settings?  Didn't you used a King Symphony with sterling silver bell in a orchestral or symphonic setting or whatever?  I'm sure that will be interesting to read not only for me but everyone else as well.  Don't take this as a threat, but something to keep in mind.  I'm sure anyone of ANY age would ask about this and thought they would get thoughts from different users.
ttf_EWadie99
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 02, 2017, 10:07PMIt's more about how you play than what you play.  And that applies to tenors, altos, and sackbuts too.
I've played with Bach players who got plenty of snap, and Duo Gravis players who got none.
Doug, I'll say that in my opinion, you probably have one of the best responses on the topic so far on this site! Image  After seeing the responses and also I posted a similar topic on a FB page, I now think it's possible to use any bass for any genre, I think you just have to tame it just right to make any bass trombone work!  Since Mr. Kraft used a Silversonic Duo Gravis in Orchestral settings and finding out that there's more Bach 50s in the jazz/big band setting than I originally thought, I believe it's fair to say that those stereotypes just aren't true!  Also anyone reading, feel free to give your experiences with not just King or Bach basses, what bass were you told that was unsuited for which setting?  Would love to hear more! Image
ttf_Don Draper
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Don Draper »

Quote from: EWadie99 on Dec 03, 2017, 09:41AMOh really Kevin?  Image You know, instead of saying BS like "reading secondhand off the net" and sounding like a keyboard warrior (it looks like to me based on your context), how about you give out your experience with any horn that is said to not be appropriate in those settings?  Didn't you used a King Symphony with sterling silver bell in a orchestral or symphonic setting or whatever?  I'm sure that will be interesting to read not only for me but everyone else as well.  Don't take this as a threat, but something to keep in mind.  I'm sure anyone of ANY age would ask about this and thought they would get thoughts from different users.

Dude..... Image
ttf_EWadie99
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Quote from: Don Draper on Dec 03, 2017, 11:28AMDude..... Image
Yeah, I guess I wet a little too far, but than again just thought I'd mention... Image
ttf_Don Draper
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_Don Draper »

Quote from: EWadie99 on Dec 03, 2017, 11:36AMYeah, I guess I wet a little too far, but than again just thought I'd mention... Image

You did, but some of the best lessons learned are from mistakes. 
ttf_bigbassbone1
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 »

Quote from: EWadie99 on Dec 03, 2017, 11:36AMYeah, I guess I wet a little too far, but than again just thought I'd mention... Image

My favorite bit was "dont take this as a threat"  Image
ttf_EWadie99
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Dec 03, 2017, 12:01PMMy favorite bit was "dont take this as a threat"  Image
lol Yeah I laughed at that bit.  I promise I don't mean to sound hostile, but its just something I find absorbed and it is the internet after all, so of course you will not get a "get out of jail free card" from backlash after posting something in this category.  I do admit, I could of responded in a more civilized manner.
ttf_EWadie99
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Bass Trombones and Their Habitats

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Dec 03, 2017, 12:01PMMy favorite bit was "dont take this as a threat"  Image
lol Yeah I laughed at that bit.  I promise I don't mean to sound hostile, but its just something I find absorbed and it is the internet after all, so of course you will not get a "get out of jail free card" from backlash after posting something in this category.  I do admit, I could of responded in a more civilized manner.
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