Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

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ttf_Torobone
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_Torobone »

I was at our Christmas Bone event this year, and a fellow showed up with a BAC Elliot Mason model. He loves the sound, but he is struggling with its weight. I didn't try it, but it looks heavy with a lot of bracing. He said that his shoulder hurt from the weight.

I also heard the same comments about the Inderbinen Piccola at one point, but now they advertise the weigh at 2 kg (4.4 lbs). My old Bach 42B weighs as much as my Yamaha 830 bass. Mass does seem to be part of some successful designs.

So my questions are: Which horns are overly heavy? Are there lighter alternatives for aging shoulders that sound great?


ttf_BillO
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_BillO »

Christmas Bone event?
ttf_greenbean
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_greenbean »

BAC don't know what the hell they are doing.  How many companies can you name that build horns too heavy to be played?...
ttf_Exzaclee
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

"Heavy", like time, is relative.

I haven't played the BAC EM or the Picola, although their reputations as heavy horns is well known. 4.4 lbs doesn't seem heavy if you're just picking it up and popping a few notes out. After 30 minutes of consistent playing you'll probably notice.

Elliot Mason is a big dude. Have you seen him? The guy knows his way around a gym. His shoulders are absolutely dreamy. I work out just enough to stay in shape.

I used to play on a 3B silversonic, one of the reasons I ditched it was the weight relative to the 2B (brass bell.) It's not near as heavy as the horns you mentioned. At the time I was playing quite a bit, 4-6 hours a day on the gig (+practice time) and I was experiencing some shoulder pain on the longer sets. Much of this was also due to the strain in the way I was playing and I wasn't working out as much then.

For an F=attachment, I think the main thing is the way the horn balances. Weight definitely is a factor, but I don't know of any F-attachment horns (save the carbon fiber options)  that aren't "heavy" - but again, this is relative. I don't play F-att horns very often. You can get a LW slide for your 42, but that may effect the balance in a detrimental way. The 88H is my favorite classic large bore. Balances well, sound jumps out of the horn, tuning is a piece of cake (except for some pesky notes in the upper register.) The only problem is the trigger bar location with no brace for me to wrap my thumb around so my forearm starts burning after a while. The ergonomics of this otherwise great horn make it feel heavy after a while. A brace attached to the right spot fixes this.

You may need a lighter horn, but you could also look into other options: braces, the ergobone, etc., to see if that can help as well. Sometimes it's the weight, sometimes it's a balance issue, sometimes it's just bad ergonomics. Balance and ergonomic issues can be solved with a good technician and time to experiment.
ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

The Elliott Mason model is very heavy, similar to a 3BF Silversonic. It also plays really well. The two are related in this design. There's gotta be a way your bud can [s]work out in a gym to achieve below average strength[/s] work around that.

Quote from: greenbean on Dec 07, 2017, 05:47AMBAC don't know what the hell they are doing.  How many companies can you name that build horns too heavy to be played?...  Idiots.

Have you tried one?

In the case of this one model, BAC does indeed know what it's doing. It's not too heavy to be played. Definitely didn't feel even close to what a bass weighs.
ttf_LowrBrass
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_LowrBrass »

<aside>

Quote from: BillO on Dec 07, 2017, 05:44AMChristmas Bone event?

Don't know if this the same thing, but we do Trombone Christmas in Philadelphia:

http://www.dolphin.upenn.edu/pennband/tbonexmas/

It's like Tuba Christmas but with trombones.
(+ Christopher Bill, this year)

As of this past summer, apparently there were only four Trombone Christmases in the USA.
(Didn't know that before Googling just now.)
https://www.facebook.com/events/333321847101962

</aside>



I like to believe that open wraps are better balanced than closed wraps (and therefore more ergonomic/ easier to hold for long periods of time, all without a counterweight), but I don't know how much truth there is to that.
ttf_BGuttman
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Sidebar:

There used to be an event in Indianapolis called Jingle Bones.  I understand it has disappeared.

I like the idea of a Trombone Christmas.  What do you use for music?  I might want to organize one here in New England next year.

/Sidebar
ttf_Burgerbob
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_Burgerbob »

Check it out...

http://trombonechristmas.org/

Some horns are very heavy. It's typically part of the design. That mass changes how a horn responds pretty drastically. I've also heard the Elliot Mason is very heavy. 4.4 pounds is pretty heavy! Most basses are what, 1 or 2 pounds heavier than that?
ttf_paulyg
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_paulyg »

Quote from: Burgerbob on Dec 07, 2017, 09:09PMCheck it out...

http://trombonechristmas.org/

Some horns are very heavy. It's typically part of the design. That mass changes how a horn responds pretty drastically. I've also heard the Elliot Mason is very heavy. 4.4 pounds is pretty heavy! Most basses are what, 1 or 2 pounds heavier than that?

We need more Aerospace Engineers involved in the design of trombones. Unnecessary weight will be eliminated!
ttf_RJMason
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_RJMason »

A lot of BAC heavy horn, bracing designs, are based around a trombonist sitting in a chair, who rests the trombone bell on their shoulder.  If you are standing up a lot to gig or practice, or tend to hold the horn in a way that doesn’t rest the bell on your shoulder, and don’t go to the gym regularly (honestly), you’ll feel discomfort over long periods of time.  In the case of a Christmas bones, y’all were probably standing up holding your horns and playing them for a couple hours...that’ll do it.

The EM horns also have very light slides.  Built to Elliot’s specs...he played a really heavy Taylor bell with sheet brass before this. And his slide is heavier than what BAC can offer as an option for their EM model.  In this case, the balance might be even more skewed if you get a super lightweight slide and a heavy bronze bell. They are really great horns though if you can overcome these specs. I couldn’t deal with a lightweight slide and bass trombone weight bronze bell with bracings and weights, buf this is what Elliot prefers!!

I’d look into the leather straps trombonists use to held distribute the weight in their hands and arm better. I know the horn should have a comfortable thumb grip that is adjustable but your friend might need more support than that.

Your friend could also talk to BAC about trading in his EM model, and having the Bell flare mounted to his lighter Paseo model Bell section and keep the slide the same.
ttf_Geordie
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_Geordie »

Not sure it applies here, but I’ve found a well placed counterweight can reduce effort, particularly on nose heavy horns. 
ttf_Dukesboneman
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_Dukesboneman »

I had a Bach 12 for a while (Yellow Brass Bell/Standard weight slide) that was the heaviest small bore I`ve ever played. It was almost the same weight as my 42BO.
It had a great dense sound but was just too heavy for me . Sold it to someone that is really happy with it,
ttf_Exzaclee
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 07, 2017, 06:20AMThe Elliott Mason model is very heavy, similar to a 3BF Silversonic. It also plays really well. The two are related in this design. There's gotta be a way your bud can [s]work out in a gym to achieve below average strength[/s] work around that.


Harrison, players and teachers far better than you have been recommending personal fitness to help with brass performance for quite some time. If you have advice that runs counter to what I offered (increasing strength or finding an ergonomic workaround) by all means present it.

Or maybe just stop Being a dismissive smartass. It's not a good look for you.
ttf_timothy42b
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: Geordie on Yesterday at 03:27 AMNot sure it applies here, but I’ve found a well placed counterweight can reduce effort, particularly on nose heavy horns. 

Gravity acts in a vertical direction.  Call it Y.  There are essentially no forces to be resisted in the X or Z directions.  The difference between light and heavy horns in the Y direction is not large.

Torque causes rotation around the X, Y, and Z axes.  Call it pitch, yaw, and roll respectively.  (I'm notating the X axis as a line through the shoulder joints, the Z at a right angle to that, the Y vertically through the spine.)

Pitch then is the tendency of the horn to be nose or tail heavy.  My 42B balances about an inch into the cork barrel, but I'm forced to hold it a couple of inches further back, so I'm guaranteed to have to use muscle to resist that torque.

Roll is the tendency of the horn to rotate right or left.  Whichever brace you hold is at an angle to that axis, therefore you've caused roll, and are forced to use muscle to resist.  This one is even worse because there's no good grip so you have to use even more tension.

I do not see yaw as a problem although it might be if you were in marching band.   

I've been having some hand pain (you may have seen my post in Practice Room) and looking at where it hurts and where the tension is, I now think the weight of the horn has very little to do with it.  I think the cause is resisting the roll and pitch forces. 

One possible cure is Ken's M.I.S.S.  Though it is designed to cancel weight, attaching it to the balance point also takes care of pitch, and he says if properly adjusted you can also resist roll. 
ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

Quote from: Exzaclee on Yesterday at 05:39 AMHarrison, players and teachers far better than you have been recommending personal fitness to help with brass performance for quite some time. If you have advice that runs counter to what I offered (increasing strength or finding an ergonomic workaround) by all means present it.

Or maybe just stop Being a dismissive smartass. It's not a good look for you.

The ergobone and NOT working out in a gym, maybe, then? I wasn't even replying to your comment, just the OP and the quoted text. The OP was asking about his bud. My comment unfortunately happened below yours, but I didn't even read your comment. Sorry if it seemed like I was saying something bad about whatever you had written.

I thought the dismissive comment was the one that actually dismissed the EM model and BAC, but ok. Point taken.
ttf_timothy42b
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 06:24 AMThe ergobone and NOT working out in a gym, maybe, then?
https://www.amazon.com/Eat-Bacon-Dont-Jog-********/dp/0761180540


ttf_Exzaclee
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_Exzaclee »

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 06:24 AMThe ergobone and NOT working out in a gym, maybe, then? I wasn't even replying to your comment, just the OP and the quoted text. The OP was asking about his bud. My comment unfortunately happened below yours, but I didn't even read your comment. Sorry if it seemed like I was saying something bad about whatever you had written.

I thought the dismissive comment was the one that actually dismissed the EM model and BAC, but ok. Point taken.

My apologies then. It reads as a direct response.

"Man is driven in toto by his insecurities" - or at least seems to be in this case.

Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 06:39 AMhttps://www.amazon.com/Eat-Bacon-Dont-Jog-********/dp/0761180540

When I click on that I get a "sorry we couldn't find the page you're looking for" page with an oblivious puppy dog smiling away. Almost as hilarious as the expected content I imagine.
ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed »

Bacon...

mm.....

I offer that as the solution to the OP's friend.
ttf_timothy42b
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Yeah, looks like the censor blocked part of the URL.

Google Don't Jog Eat Bacon, you'll see it.
ttf_BillO
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_BillO »

I recently weighed all my trombones.  In order of bore size, weight.  Weights are in pounds and with no mouthpiece.

Conn 6H  2.24

XO 1632  2.65 (red brass bell, with counter weight)

Tiger    1.91 (w/F-att)
King 4B  3.12 (straight horn)
B88      3.90 (older model w/yellow brass bell)
Shires   4.03 (2RVE, Rotor, TW47, TY)
XO 1236  4.33 (rose brass bell, Thayer valve, open wrap)

X0 1240  5.98 (rose brass bell, independent rotors)

There is only 6.88 ounces difference from the lightest large bore with F-att to the heaviest.  The XO-1236 balances better than the B88 so it actually feels lighter while playing it.  A Conn 88H with a thin bell and a carbon fiber slide might be the lightest possible and I'd guesstimate the weight would be about 3.5 lbs.  However, its my experience that weight is not the only factor.  Balance seems to play a big part.
ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_GetzenBassPlayer »

Quote from: paulyg on Dec 07, 2017, 09:37PMWe need more Aerospace Engineers involved in the design of trombones. Unnecessary weight will be eliminated!

I live in a city full of aerospace engineers. You give them too much credit 🙂
ttf_BGuttman
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Aerospace engineers are not necessarily acoustical engineers.  It may be light, but it will sound lousy.
ttf_BGuttman
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Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives

Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Aerospace engineers are not necessarily acoustical engineers.  It may be light, but it will sound lousy.
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