Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:32 am

Quote from: Duffle on Dec 17, 2016, 07:41AMOn the Shires website the Vintage Elkhart 's description states the slide crook is yellow brass although the picture of said instrument shows a nickel crook. Which is it? If it's the yellow crook why was that chosen over the nickel as all the vintage Conns I've seen have had nickel crooks?......

The Vintage Elkhart comes with a T47YC slide, which is a standard weight, narrow (Conn-like) width and has yellow outer tubes paired with a yellow crook. We had a lot of discussion about the crook and decided to go with a yellow brass as it lent a little bit more warmth and breadth of sound to the Vintage Elkhart. The yellow crook made it immediately more user friendly for more people while preserving the character of sound.

This can happen a lot and I see it everyday with the customization. There are a lot more differences between us and any other manufacturer that is more than what we can spell out in simple specs. Because of this, we sometimes have to take a different road to get similar results. Strictly speaking, the Vintage Elkhart isn't a vintage Conn. It's an instrument that is inspired by those great instruments updated for today. It's meant to give you that sound and feeling in a useful package, rather than a strict copy.

There's a lot we could do to customize this model to make it more (or less) like different eras of vintage Conns. We could very easily build one with a nickel crook, or a gold brass slide, or an 8" bell, or a yellow bell (hello 1938!), or...well that depends on your imagination and what you'd like to acheive.

-Ben

ttf_goldentone · Post by **ttf_goldentone** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:36 am

Is the Colin Williams bell an 8YLW or 8YLW T7 or 2YLW T7?

ttf_John McKevitt · Post by **ttf_John McKevitt** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:28 am

Thanks Ben and Matt K to your responses to my Question about Bracing and Piston Valve (Hand slide )sections. The V16 Bach is only a .484ish bore and is way too small for what I was looking for. There's always Tromboniums and Euphoniums.
Next Question: I have a BII 10.5 1G HW Bass Bell. Is there a process to thin the ga or make it more responsive. Buffing, Double Buffing ,Annealing ,Heat Treating the Stem. Cryogenic enhancement, Walnut Blasting( More delicate version of Sand Blasting). I realize most of those processes would destroy the Lacquer and some would require the hardware be removed and soldered back on. Maybe I am getting to old to make this bell respond. Maybe I just don't want to work so hard at it.I do like it , but wish I had a lighter version of it. Short of selling or trading it, I was wondering if there was anyway to modify it. Thanks, John McKevitt

ttf_goldentone · Post by **ttf_goldentone** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:51 am

Do you think this sounds like a good set up?

Type II 5YLW Bell
Rotor Valve
TW47GL Slide or TW47L YC Slide
TYS Tuning Slide
#2 Sterling Silver Lead Pipe

Which slide would make more sense for more warmth, but still having clear articulations?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:29 am

Quote from: John McKevitt on Dec 17, 2016, 11:28AMThanks Ben and Matt K to your responses to my Question about Bracing and Piston Valve (Hand slide )sections. The V16 Bach is only a .484ish bore and is way too small for what I was looking for. There's always Tromboniums and Euphoniums.
Next Question: I have a BII 10.5 1G HW Bass Bell. Is there a process to thin the ga or make it more responsive. Buffing, Double Buffing ,Annealing ,Heat Treating the Stem. Cryogenic enhancement, Walnut Blasting( More delicate version of Sand Blasting). I realize most of those processes would destroy the Lacquer and some would require the hardware be removed and soldered back on. Maybe I am getting to old to make this bell respond. Maybe I just don't want to work so hard at it.I do like it , but wish I had a lighter version of it. Short of selling or trading it, I was wondering if there was anyway to modify it. Thanks, John McKevitt

Hi John,

There's two ways I would normally go about this: change what's around the bell to make it respond quicker or change the bell itself. I would need to know more about your setup to recommend anything around it to modify.

In terms of lightening the bell itself, buffing or sanding, then buffing the bell would be my normal recommendation. This will generally speed up response and get more color available, though it generally takes a bit more effort to keep things in check.

But you have a highly specialized bell. We could do any of these things to it, but it may or may not yield the results you wish because of where we are starting. In this instance, I recommend looking at a completely different bell, rather than going through the process and potentially ruining (worst case scenario) or having a compromised, halfway-there set up (best case scenario). Let a duck be a duck, rather than trying to make the duck a swan. We can discuss what kind of bell that might be for you; a BII 7GM would be a great place to start.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:33 am

Quote from: goldentone on Dec 25, 2016, 11:51AMDo you think this sounds like a good set up?

Type II 5YLW Bell
Rotor Valve
TW47GL Slide or TW47L YC Slide
TYS Tuning Slide
#2 Sterling Silver Lead Pipe

Which slide would make more sense for more warmth, but still having clear articulations?

Sure, this sounds like a good set up. But what is it that you are going for and what are you coming from? What is your thinking behind this set up?

Neither of the slides have the crispest (more definition, or "T" to the front of the note) as other options, but then again the seamed tuning slide also has a tendency to round out articulations as well. You may also have personal tendencies that accentuate or downplay crisp articulations that we cannot yet take into account. I'd need more information before I could make any strong recommendations for a starting point one way or another.

Do you live near a dealer or near one of the places we display? (Trade shows/festivals?). If so, I strongly recommend you try our Shires custom and Vintage New York models. This will give us a good reference point to begin a discussion.

Ben

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:19 am

I am not going to buy one just now, but would like to know for what set up to go for when I rob a bank

So, I need a small bore trombone (could be a dual bore as well) with a f or g attachement (haven't decided yet which one) probably something similar to a King 3BF. I need it to have rather lyrical sound but can light up if pushed. It is for solo work and small combo ensembles playing jazz, latino, funk and pop. And how much $$$ would that cost.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:21 am

Quote from: bonenick on Dec 28, 2016, 07:19AMI am not going to buy one just now, but would like to know for what set up to go for when I rob a bank

So, I need a small bore trombone (could be a dual bore as well) with a f or g attachement (haven't decided yet which one) probably something similar to a King 3BF. I need it to have rather lyrical sound but can light up if pushed. It is for solo work and small combo ensembles playing jazz, latino, funk and pop. And how much $$$ would that cost.

Hello Bonenick,

You would likely be looking at a Michael Davis Plus with F attachment or something similar in the custom vein, likely an S7YLW7.75 w/valve/SY1.5/T08NLW. In any event, this would be a custom, and non-returnable instrument.

Your profile lists Bulgaria as your location; because of exchange rates and import taxes, prices vary in different countries. It would be best to contact a dealer you would like to work with to get and accurate price quote.

Ben

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:35 am

Hi Ben,

Can you explain to me what all this numbers and letters mean? As for price forming, I would like to know what the price is if ordering either from Shires directly (is that possible?) or through thomann. I don't find local Bulgarian dealers trustworthy.

Do we look at traditional rotor attachment or something else (thayer, hagmann or truebore)?

ttf_John McKevitt · Post by **ttf_John McKevitt** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:49 am

Thanks again Ben. Funny you should suggest the BII 7GM Bell.I had just picked up a used BII 7GM 10 . It has been working out nicely( after a brief adjustment period) with a newly traded hand slide, a B62/78YC. FWIW the rest of my setup include Dual Inline Axial Flow valves in F/Gb/ D , AN RCS Tuning Slide and primarily a B3 GS leadpipe
New Question: I have a B78 Handslide. I find its use limited due to a lack of resistance. I have used it successfully in Brass Quintets , Big Bands w /5 bones, some other commercial settings and Bass Bone Jazz Improvisation . Have you thought of trying a "Tone Enhancement Collar" similar to the one on the Bollinger model handslide to "Tame the Beast". Maybe the L version of the leadpipes might be well suited to this bore.I have not tried any. They are not my preference for the other bores I have tried them on. I find them restrictive. Have a Happy and Safe New Year, John McKevitt

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:58 am

Quote from: bonenick on Dec 28, 2016, 11:35AMHi Ben,

Can you explain to me what all this numbers and letters mean? As for price forming, I would like to know what the price is if ordering either from Shires directly (is that possible?) or through thomann. I don't find local Bulgarian dealers trustworthy.

Do we look at traditional rotor attachment or something else (thayer, hagmann or truebore)?

Numbers and letters on the SESHires website.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:54 pm

What is exactly the difference between bells S1 and S7?

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:59 pm

Quote from: John McKevitt on Dec 28, 2016, 11:49AMI had just picked up a used BII 7GM 10 . It has been working out nicely( after a brief adjustment period)

Glad you like it

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:17 am

Quote from: John McKevitt on Dec 28, 2016, 11:49AMThanks again Ben. Funny you should suggest the BII 7GM Bell.I had just picked up a used BII 7GM 10 . It has been working out nicely( after a brief adjustment period) with a newly traded hand slide, a B62/78YC. FWIW the rest of my setup include Dual Inline Axial Flow valves in F/Gb/ D , AN RCS Tuning Slide and primarily a B3 GS leadpipe
New Question: I have a B78 Handslide. I find its use limited due to a lack of resistance. I have used it successfully in Brass Quintets , Big Bands w /5 bones, some other commercial settings and Bass Bone Jazz Improvisation . Have you thought of trying a "Tone Enhancement Collar" similar to the one on the Bollinger model handslide to "Tame the Beast". Maybe the L version of the leadpipes might be well suited to this bore.I have not tried any. They are not my preference for the other bores I have tried them on. I find them restrictive. Have a Happy and Safe New Year, John McKevitt

Hi John,

You've got a lot of truly individual parts going on there! Certainly in it's original configuration, this was a very big horn. I'm glad the BII 7GM 10 is working out, sounds like a good match. Depending on what you are using the horn for, you may want to look into to a yellow tuning slide (BYCS) is you'd like more pop and clarity to the front of the notes.

The Bollinger tone collar generally focuses attack more, giving a more focused target at the immediate-front of the blow. I find it to give a little more weight and density to the attack of notes. On straight B78 you would still have the wide open feel after that sensation. A long leadpipe could help with stability, but isn't going to completely mitigate the large bore size, just as it doesn't completely change a .562 or .547 bore tenor.

In most cases, we do not recommend a B78 slide of any kind ("the beast"). It is a custom order, only, for all of the reasons you have listed. Usually, a B62/78 or variation thereof will do what people are looking for. There are a few other people that successfully use them in specific instances. I'm thinking Jeff Hall of Rochester Philharmonic and Gabrielle Malloggi of Orchestra del Maggio Musicali Fiorentino, and even then I believe they are only using them for specific repertoire.

I think of the B78 as a highly specialized piece of equipment that is suited for specific players in specific situations, not necessarily an everyday piece of equipment. It takes a lot of strength to maintain focus on a bore size that large, and the size of sound gets really huge. This is at the outer limits of what I think of as a "characteristic" bass trombone sound, and for most people it moves beyond that into something completely different; kind of like a Monette trumpet doesn't always sound like other trumpets.

I hope that helps and that you continue to enjoy the BII 7GM 10.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:39 am

Quote from: bonenick on Dec 28, 2016, 12:54PMWhat is exactly the difference between bells S1 and S7?

The "S" prefix stands for small bore bell. These different in their taper from the other sizes and also have fixed bell sections to neckpipes (unless custom ordered otherwise). We find that mating the bell directly to the neckpipe or valve improves the response and slotting on these smaller bells.

"1" refers to a standard two piece construction bell with a soldered beadwire, similar to a King. These bells have a very strong core and a firmly defined timbre with excellent forward projection.

"7" refers to a modified two piece construction with soldered beadwire. We progressively this the bell so that its thickness resides somewhere between a one piece and two piece bell. Think of this as a King-Bach hybrid. These bells are a little more flexible in their timbre, have a little more sideways sound and blend compared to type 1 bells. These are our most popular bells.

On small bore trombones we use the same rotary valve as we do on our altos. There is not another valve option.

Price of the horn with a valve (regardless of size) is the same as a large bore tenor with rotary valve. We suggest checking in with any of our dealers to determine this price.

Thank You,
Ben

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:12 am

Thank you Ben, that was really helpful. Just to make sure - there is no such option as copper bell on custom small bore trombones, or is there?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:44 am

Any motion on the new mouthpiece lineup? Looks like the website still says to check back later for more info.

Also, do you have any information about the Vintage 5GS series (such as the piece it was based off of)?

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:57 am

In the MT leadpipes, where does the MTRS fit in openness as compared to the MT1, 2, and 3? Or, what's the most open MT pipe?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:29 pm

Quote from: ChadA on Jan 07, 2017, 08:57AMIn the MT leadpipes, where does the MTRS fit in openness as compared to the MT1, 2, and 3? Or, what's the most open MT pipe?

The "RS", in M or MT, is the Ralph Sauer, which roughly equates to out 2.5 in either size. (There's more of a difference, but it gets really confusing real fast. Best to think 2.5) If you wat the most "open", then go with a "3" in either M or MT size.

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:40 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Jan 08, 2017, 06:29PMThe "RS", in M or MT, is the Ralph Sauer, which roughly equates to out 2.5 in either size. (There's more of a difference, but it gets really confusing real fast. Best to think 2.5) If you wat the most "open", then go with a "3" in either M or MT size.

Thanks!

ttf_trb420 · Post by **ttf_trb420** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:48 pm

Do you sell unthreaded leadpipes?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:02 am

Quote from: trb420 on Jan 08, 2017, 07:48PMDo you sell unthreaded leadpipes?

We will sell leadpipes with a collar only, without threads. These are custom, made-to-order only and are non-returnable.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:44 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jan 07, 2017, 04:44AMAny motion on the new mouthpiece lineup? Looks like the website still says to check back later for more info.

Also, do you have any information about the Vintage 5GS series (such as the piece it was based off of)?

The new mouthpiece line has had all prototypes approved and we are steadily working on getting all of these mouthpieces in stock. As you can imagine, with a line as diverse as ours this can take some time, and we've started with the most popular sizes first. New trombones started being delivered with the new designs last year (11C with altos and small bores, 5G with Custom large tenors, 5MD with Q-30 large tenors, 1.25MD with Custom basses, 1.5MD).

The 5GS is our own design, certainly it takes inspiration from other Bach 5GS mouthpieces but is it's own animal. The 5GS small shank is more of large 6 1/2AL than a small 5G. The large shank is the opposite. Both are very good and I am proud of the designs. Both are in stock and available.

Ben

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:29 am

Thats great news about having them so close to production!

I have a Vintage 5GS in large shank from the older series that I have threaded for Doug's XT series rims that is working really well for me. Are you at liberty to indicate what the differences in the cup/throat/shank are between the 5GS and the 6.5AL large shank? I'm thinking about maybe picking up one of the 6.5AL in large shank and doing the same thing to it with the idea that maybe something a little smaller might even be a better fit for what I'm doing. But if they're, for example, the same underpart with a different rim it wouldn't necessarily be worth trying (I would be surprised if this scenario were the case, but just to make sure!).

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:19 am

Quote from: Matt K on Jan 09, 2017, 06:29AMThats great news about having them so close to production!

I have a Vintage 5GS in large shank from the older series that I have threaded for Doug's XT series rims that is working really well for me. Are you at liberty to indicate what the differences in the cup/throat/shank are between the 5GS and the 6.5AL large shank? I'm thinking about maybe picking up one of the 6.5AL in large shank and doing the same thing to it with the idea that maybe something a little smaller might even be a better fit for what I'm doing. But if they're, for example, the same underpart with a different rim it wouldn't necessarily be worth trying (I would be surprised if this scenario were the case, but just to make sure!).

Hi Matt,

The 6 1/2 AL large shank shares a similar throat and backbore to the 5GS-L but has a smaller cup volume that is more consistent with a small shank 6 1/2 AL. We felt the larger throat and backbore were a better match for a large bore instrument. You can think of it being a Goldielocks size in between a Bach 6 1/2AL and Bach 6 1/2A.

Ben

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:19 am

While I was down at factory day, I played a 5G and 5GS, (both of the new stock I think), in a .525 horn and - wow - I loved them. The 5GS gave a little more "crispness" to the sound, while the 5G sounded decidedly symphonic (keep in mind I'm primarily bass player, so for me a 5GS is on the really small end of the spectrum)

If I were made of money, I would have bought that horn and those two 'pieces on the spot.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:32 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jan 09, 2017, 08:19AMHi Matt,

The 6 1/2 AL large shank shares a similar throat and backbore to the 5GS-L but has a smaller cup volume that is more consistent with a small shank 6 1/2 AL. We felt the larger throat and backbore were a better match for a large bore instrument. You can think of it being a Goldielocks size in between a Bach 6 1/2AL and Bach 6 1/2A.

Ben

Great! Thanks for the info Ben. Sounds like it might have to give one a shot!

-Matt

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:46 am

I've looked through the leadpipe labeling info on the Shires site. What are the actual specifications of a "1" or "1.5" pipe, specifically the min venturi diameter?

ttf_TNTBONE · Post by **ttf_TNTBONE** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:36 am

Ben, What is the approximate lead time to receive a newly ordered 547-562 slide? Thanks

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:01 pm

Quote from: TNTBONE on Feb 07, 2017, 09:36AMBen, What is the approximate lead time to receive a newly ordered 547-562 slide? Thanks

Our delivery time varies on current production demands and backorder, so I am reticent to publish anything that will be staying around on the web for a long time. Please contact me at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and I'll be happy to help there.

Ben

ttf_Rockymountaintrombone · Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:02 pm

Ben -

I'm curious about the new line of mouthpieces in cooperation w/Pickett. Are the blanks similar to the earlier Shires mouthpieces, or are they a heavier blank like the Picketts? Also, do the rim sizes correspond to the Pickett stock sizes, or are they unique to the Shires series?

Thanks!

Jim Scott

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:35 pm

Quote from: Rockymountaintrombone on Feb 14, 2017, 05:02PMBen -

I'm curious about the new line of mouthpieces in cooperation w/Pickett. Are the blanks similar to the earlier Shires mouthpieces, or are they a heavier blank like the Picketts? Also, do the rim sizes correspond to the Pickett stock sizes, or are they unique to the Shires series?

Thanks!

Jim Scott

Hello Jim,

Pickett manufacturers the mouthpieces to our specifications. The rims, cups, backbores and blank are all unique to Shires. The blank is similar in look to our previous design, but it slightly lighter. The rim sizes correspond to generally accepted nomenclature. A definitive size list is coming, I'll be sure to let you all know when it's here.

Ben

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:58 pm

Would Shires build an instrument that it is not on their website?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:14 am

Quote from: bonenick on Feb 15, 2017, 02:58PMWould Shires build an instrument that it is not on their website?

That depends on what you are looking for.

The models specified on the website are "Standard Models", sets of components we have found that work extremely well together for players looking for a particular sound and feel.

We also make many custom trombone trombone, from parts in our catalog. We have a wide myriad of options available.

Things not already in our catalog need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. What is it that you are looking for?

Ben

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:28 am

First of all, I am not looking to order right away...have to accumulate some pennies

So I am looking around who can make what I want and for how much

I want rotary valves lightweight superbone (3 valves), something like the Schagerl JM model, but smaller bore (not more than .508, could be a step bore as well, eventually .480-.508), soundwise probably something like MD+ supebone version. It should be manageable with one hand only (ergonomics are important) when slide is closed. My trombone experience is not enough to precise anything else about the slide except that it should be light and fast (and probably I can go with a shortened slide without 7th position, but this is not a requirement).

I won't deny that I am looking around and asking other artisans and companies as well.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:43 pm

I was just talking with the folks at Long & McQuade and the person there said they had a 2RVE bell in stock that has a 7" diameter. Is that even possible or did he mistake reading "2RVET7" on it as designating a 7" bell?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:21 pm

Quote from: bonenick on Feb 16, 2017, 05:28AMFirst of all, I am not looking to order right away...have to accumulate some pennies

So I am looking around who can make what I want and for how much

I want rotary valves lightweight superbone (3 valves), something like the Schagerl JM model, but smaller bore (not more than .508, could be a step bore as well, eventually .480-.508), soundwise probably something like MD+ supebone version. It should be manageable with one hand only (ergonomics are important) when slide is closed. My trombone experience is not enough to precise anything else about the slide except that it should be light and fast (and probably I can go with a shortened slide without 7th position, but this is not a requirement).

I won't deny that I am looking around and asking other artisans and companies as well.

I have to be completely honest, this is a project we couldn't/wouldn't take on at this time and I have a hard time conceiving of a time that we would.

My best advice would be to contact individual technicians or true specialty shops that might be willing to take this on.

If you were interested in just exploring the trombone (no super/valve part of it) we would be happy to discuss specifications there. Our MDP would fulfill most of the requirements you set forth. This could be a template that you then modified to suit your needs.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:26 pm

Quote from: BillO on Feb 17, 2017, 12:43PMI was just talking with the folks at Long & McQuade and the person there said they had a 2RVE bell in stock that has a 7" diameter. Is that even possible or did he mistake reading "2RVET7" on it as designating a 7" bell?

The 2RVE T7 is an 8.5" bell. The T7 refers to treatment that makes the edge of the bell lighter, much in the manner of the early 1960's Elkhart Conn 8H bells.

I can completely understand why it might be confusing; generally a stand alone number at the end of a bell code stands for the bell diameter, for example: 2RVE 8 (which is an excellent bell). The "T" immediately before it identifies it as the treatment.

I should note that I am not aware of any large/medium bore bell that we have made smaller than 8".

Ben

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:52 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Feb 17, 2017, 01:26PMThe 2RVE T7 is an 8.5" bell. The T7 refers to treatment that makes the edge of the bell lighter, much in the manner of the early 1960's Elkhart Conn 8H bells.

I can completely understand why it might be confusing; generally a stand alone number at the end of a bell code stands for the bell diameter, for example: 2RVE 8 (which is an excellent bell). The "T" immediately before it identifies it as the treatment.

I should note that I am not aware of any large/medium bore bell that we have made smaller than 8".

Ben
Thanks Ben.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:05 pm

Thanks Ben, that was good to know. If I need a straight tenor I would either go Shires MD or a King 2B. But for now I will have to find an artisan that is willing to do what I want. Quite likely Schlub Brass or Votruba.

ttf_JSBassTrb · Post by **ttf_JSBassTrb** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:01 pm

I posted a separate topic, but now that I found this - maybe someone would have some answers for me here.

"I've done a fair bit of research to see what topics have been posted covering this but couldn't find much.

I've been playing the Trubore valves for several years now, but have been thinking of switching to Axials. I am mainly looking to "beefer" up my higher register. Would the added resistance of the open horn with Axials help with this at all?

I have no complaints with the Trubores in the middle/low registers, they sound fantastic there. The open horn is wide enough to drop a pencil through. Looking for opinions/thoughts from serious bass trombonists who have maybe played both extensively or enough to know if there is any difference.

Thanks."

ttf_beansessette · Post by **ttf_beansessette** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:50 pm

Hello all,

I'll be visiting Shires in less than two weeks for a horn fitting, which I'm extremely excited about! I've never purchased a new horn before, so I am unfamiliar with the process. Will I be able to purchase and take home the horn they put together for me the same day I visit the showroom, or is there a wait time for another one to be shipped to me?

Many thanks,
-Sean

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:56 pm

Quote from: JSBassTrb on Mar 02, 2017, 09:01PMI posted a separate topic, but now that I found this - maybe someone would have some answers for me here.

"I've done a fair bit of research to see what topics have been posted covering this but couldn't find much.

I've been playing the Trubore valves for several years now, but have been thinking of switching to Axials. I am mainly looking to "beefer" up my higher register. Would the added resistance of the open horn with Axials help with this at all?

I have no complaints with the Trubores in the middle/low registers, they sound fantastic there. The open horn is wide enough to drop a pencil through. Looking for opinions/thoughts from serious bass trombonists who have maybe played both extensively or enough to know if there is any difference.

Thanks."

Obviously you'll want to default to Ben's expertise on this question but mayhap my experience can help with this. Maybe not. Discard if useless....

I played on a Shires axial on my .547 for a while before selling the valve (don't need a valve often enough to keep it.)

I found the Axial very open. I wouldn't describe it as being resistant at all.

I haven't played the standard rotor, but have heard it described as a much more resistant valve compared to the axial - again, I haven't played the standard rotor.

I'm very interested in Ben's thoughts. If I get another valve, I'd like something with a bit more resistance. Of course, if I get another valve I might as well try a small bore with F - I'd get more use out of that.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:40 am

Quote from: JSBassTrb on Mar 02, 2017, 09:01PMI posted a separate topic, but now that I found this - maybe someone would have some answers for me here.

"I've done a fair bit of research to see what topics have been posted covering this but couldn't find much.

I've been playing the Trubore valves for several years now, but have been thinking of switching to Axials. I am mainly looking to "beefer" up my higher register. Would the added resistance of the open horn with Axials help with this at all?

I have no complaints with the Trubores in the middle/low registers, they sound fantastic there. The open horn is wide enough to drop a pencil through. Looking for opinions/thoughts from serious bass trombonists who have maybe played both extensively or enough to know if there is any difference.

Thanks."

I'm curious about your comment "beefier"; does this mean more tone per cubic inch or a larger body of sound in general or both...or something else entirely? Does the sound get smaller/thin out/get more diffuse as you go higher in range? Where does this start to happen, and have you experienced anything similar on other instrument?

Depending on your answers to the above questions, I would be thinking of all parts of the horn except bell: tuning slide, leadpipe, slide and valve. A TX tuning slide sounds/feels more focused in the upper register and aligns the overtones in a more "Bach-like" fashion. We've experienced players that grew up with Bachs do better with this tuning slide because it lines the harmonic series up closer with where they want to put the slide. A more (or less) focused leadpipe could open up options closer to the "front" of the blow. A different slide could do something similar, but just a little further down the horn.

_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ _________________________

Speaking directly to valves...

I generally think of the valves this way: Axial and Tru-Bore are the widest sounding and most open feeling. The standard rotor and Dual Bore valve are more focused in core and width. The axial and standard rotor sound and feel a little more diffuse and have rounder edges to the sound, and the Tru-Bore and Dual Bore valve have a more focused, defined slot to the overtone series.

If I may draw an analogy, picture the slot/sound of a note as a road. The Axial flow is a wide, 4 lane highway with the road taper immediately to the grass medians. The Tru-Bore is a 4 lane highway with a well defined curb. The standard rotor is a like a 2 lane road with a wide breakdown lane that tapers to the grass and the Dual Bore is a two lane highway with a well defined curb. This highlights the similarities of the Tru-Bore to Axial and between the rotors, as well as the similarity of the Axial to the Standard Rotor and the Tru-Bore to the Dual Bore valve.

I hope that makes sense. I'll look forward to reading your reply.

ttf_JSBassTrb · Post by **ttf_JSBassTrb** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:16 am

Quote from: griffinben on Mar 03, 2017, 08:40AMI'm curious about your comment "beefier"; does this mean more tone per cubic inch or a larger body of sound in general or both...or something else entirely? Does the sound get smaller/thin out/get more diffuse as you go higher in range? Where does this start to happen, and have you experienced anything similar on other instrument?

Depending on your answers to the above questions, I would be thinking of all parts of the horn except bell: tuning slide, leadpipe, slide and valve. A TX tuning slide sounds/feels more focused in the upper register and aligns the overtones in a more "Bach-like" fashion. We've experienced players that grew up with Bachs do better with this tuning slide because it lines the harmonic series up closer with where they want to put the slide. A more (or less) focused leadpipe could open up options closer to the "front" of the blow. A different slide could do something similar, but just a little further down the horn.

_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ _________________________

Speaking directly to valves...

I generally think of the valves this way: Axial and Tru-Bore are the widest sounding and most open feeling. The standard rotor and Dual Bore valve are more focused in core and width. The axial and standard rotor sound and feel a little more diffuse and have rounder edges to the sound, and the Tru-Bore and Dual Bore valve have a more focused, defined slot to the overtone series.

If I may draw an analogy, picture the slot/sound of a note as a road. The Axial flow is a wide, 4 lane highway with the road taper immediately to the grass medians. The Tru-Bore is a 4 lane highway with a well defined curb. The standard rotor is a like a 2 lane road with a wide breakdown lane that tapers to the grass and the Dual Bore is a two lane highway with a well defined curb. This highlights the similarities of the Tru-Bore to Axial and between the rotors, as well as the similarity of the Axial to the Standard Rotor and the Tru-Bore to the Dual Bore valve.

I hope that makes sense. I'll look forward to reading your reply.

Thank you so much for the reply Ben! I guess what i mean by beefier is a fuller sound. When I go higher it tends to thin out around the high Ab. Now I'm sure some of it can be fixed in the practice room.

I wound up purchasing a single bore slide to see if that would help, and moved down a few lead pipe sizes as well, but it didn't seem to help me much. I went back to my dual bore because I can get the ideal sound on it, and went down to the #2 lead pipe, and so far it's getting a little better. I just feel like the past few months I have been working hard with not much of a result, and now questioning if I'm in the right equipment.

I hadn't really considered the TX tuning slide. I'm on a B tuning slide right now.

Thank you again.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:22 pm

Quote from: JSBassTrb on Mar 03, 2017, 09:16AMThank you so much for the reply Ben! I guess what i mean by beefier is a fuller sound. When I go higher it tends to thin out around the high Ab. Now I'm sure some of it can be fixed in the practice room.

I wound up purchasing a single bore slide to see if that would help, and moved down a few lead pipe sizes as well, but it didn't seem to help me much. I went back to my dual bore because I can get the ideal sound on it, and went down to the #2 lead pipe, and so far it's getting a little better. I just feel like the past few months I have been working hard with not much of a result, and now questioning if I'm in the right equipment.

I hadn't really considered the TX tuning slide. I'm on a B tuning slide right now.

Thank you again.

I'd be curious to hear ALL of your specs, when you have a chance.

ttf_JSBassTrb · Post by **ttf_JSBassTrb** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:35 am

I'm on the Bollinger Bell, independent trubore valves, yellow B tuning slide, dual bore yellow slide with nickel crook, using a #2 leadpipe.

ttf_Trekkie Trombone · Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:16 pm

Hi Guys,

I'm Nicholas, Trombone specialist at Long & McQuade in Toronto. I double checked the bell I think we're talking about and it is in fact a
2RVE 7.75. Double checking the measurement it is in fact 7.75". Feels a little to small for an orchestral sized horn but for someone going for a smaller setup it feels like a great bell!

Quote from: griffinben on Feb 17, 2017, 01:26PMThe 2RVE T7 is an 8.5" bell. The T7 refers to treatment that makes the edge of the bell lighter, much in the manner of the early 1960's Elkhart Conn 8H bells.

I can completely understand why it might be confusing; generally a stand alone number at the end of a bell code stands for the bell diameter, for example: 2RVE 8 (which is an excellent bell). The "T" immediately before it identifies it as the treatment.

I should note that I am not aware of any large/medium bore bell that we have made smaller than 8".

Ben

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:41 pm

Hey Nicholas, I'm coming down on the 14th to talk to you about that XO 1632 and try out the bell as well as the tru-bore valve section, if you still have it.

So this bell measures at 7.75"? That's a ways under 8.5.

I'm interested to hear what Ben has to say.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:13 am

Quote from: Trekkie Trombone on Mar 04, 2017, 02:16PMHi Guys,

I'm Nicholas, Trombone specialist at Long & McQuade in Toronto. I double checked the bell I think we're talking about and it is in fact a
2RVE 7.75. Double checking the measurement it is in fact 7.75". Feels a little to small for an orchestral sized horn but for someone going for a smaller setup it feels like a great bell!

I have a vague recollection of this bell being made as a special order back when Barnaby Kerekas was the trombone specialist in the Toronto store. But maybe I'm wrong.