Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:47 am

funny, I've always felt that the Edwards T396-A felt and sounded more like a Shires than anything else I'd tried from Edwards.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:35 am

Like the last few commenters, I have to wonder what Shires components you have tried if you think it's not powerful enough for orchestral playing??

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:38 am

Seems to me that the actual "powerhouse" is the player.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:01 am

50 some odd pages I guess I'll finally post something here instead of lurking all this time.

I have a shires large bore with lightweight gold brass tubes and a 1G bell (and an axial that i sold a while back) - i wanted a big horn I could still play jazz on after I didn't need it for classical stuff anymore. I've never considered myself a powerhouse orchestral player, but this horn made it easier for me to produce that type of sound when necessary. If I had to rely on orchestral playing to pay my bills, I wouldn't think of anything else. I love their stuff. I really wish I hadn't sold the .508 - that was dumb.

If your Shires isn't right for you, go to Hopedale and let them set you up. I bet they can give you exactly what you're looking for. This isn't meant to be a dis on any of the other custom makers, they make excellent horns as well .

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:03 pm

I should also note that we have several well stocked dealers across the country that would be happy to help anyone and everyone and fit them with a great Shires instrument. Please take a look at our dealers ( http://seshires.com/dealers.html#al) and visit their websites. You'll soon find what you're looking for there too!

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:57 am

My question is based on the Q series bass:

The bell on it says to be a 2 piece light weight bell. Is that more along the lines of a BII 1YLW? How does it play with the rest of the components?

ttf_trombone addict · Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:49 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on Sep 16, 2016, 10:38AMSeems to me that the actual "powerhouse" is the player.

Darn, I thought it was as simple as buying a bigger mouthpiece

ttf_Langheck · Post by **ttf_Langheck** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:15 pm

While we're on the topic of symphony cannons, I've been looking to make my horn less of a cannon. Ben, I was thinking maybe a bell change would be in order. Currently my horn has a 5YM bell, TW47 slide, Tru-Bore valve, standard tuning slide, and a #2 leadpipe, what would you recommend to give a little more sparkle/edge at lower volumes? I prefer yellow brass bells, and lighter weight bells. I was thinking a 7YLW or a 5VNY or maybe a 2YLW. I also have a #1 leadpipe but it seems like its way to tight for me.

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:11 am

Ben

I'm a player that takes several weeks, if not months, to really get to appreciate whether a horn is working for me ( I've also found that what may work in a practice room very often doesn't work in an orchestra/band/concert hall) - maybe I'm just bad at assessing horns. But it's rare that what I may like on day one will be the thing I like several months down the line. Playing it for several weeks very often changes one's perceptions ( and, who knows, may change the horn in some way). How would you go about fitting a horn for a difficult customer like me?......

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:15 am

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Sep 17, 2016, 04:57AMMy question is based on the Q series bass:

The bell on it says to be a 2 piece light weight bell. Is that more along the lines of a BII 1YLW? How does it play with the rest of the components?

This is based on our BI taper bell. While the spec is lightweight, this plays heftier to me. The response is round, on both yellow and gold brass bells, and it doesn't get edge to the sound as some other lightweight bass bells I have played. The entire package balances very nicely. We've had some other players try them out and everyone has been very pleased with the sound and response.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:26 am

Quote from: Langheck on Sep 17, 2016, 06:15PMWhile we're on the topic of symphony cannons, I've been looking to make my horn less of a cannon. Ben, I was thinking maybe a bell change would be in order. Currently my horn has a 5YM bell, TW47 slide, Tru-Bore valve, standard tuning slide, and a #2 leadpipe, what would you recommend to give a little more sparkle/edge at lower volumes? I prefer yellow brass bells, and lighter weight bells. I was thinking a 7YLW or a 5VNY or maybe a 2YLW. I also have a #1 leadpipe but it seems like its way to tight for me.

This could be many things. I would need to hear you in person and try a couple of things, but here's what I would look at to achieve more "sparkle" at lower dynamics:

[li]Two piece bell[/li][li]Lighter weight bell[/li][li]TX tuning slide[/li][li]1.5 Leadpipe[/li][li]Sterling silver leadpipe[/li]

For the two piece bell, it could be soldered or unsoldered, I really couldn't say with certainty until you tried a variety. One thing to keep in mind when checking the lighter weights is that you don't middle and top end for low end. Yes, something will change, but you don't want a horn that's the complete opposite of what you currently have.

The tuning slide and leadpipes will likely be a quick check in to see if they work for you. People usually know right away if that is a direction they want to go. Be forewarned, if you change the bell, you may prefer one tuning slide over another.

If you wanted to change feel at lower dynamics (you mentioned only sparkle, a timbre issue) I would give thought to changing out the valve too. A standard or dual bore rotor can provide more focus in the middle part of the horn, giving more to "blow against" which helps some people's response at low dynamics. It's highly personal, and I think more of feel at this point, I think Tru-Bores can achieve some of the "sparkliest" sounds there is out there.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:45 am

Quote from: Duffle on Sep 18, 2016, 12:11AMBen

I'm a player that takes several weeks, if not months, to really get to appreciate whether a horn is working for me ( I've also found that what may work in a practice room very often doesn't work in an orchestra/band/concert hall) - maybe I'm just bad at assessing horns. But it's rare that what I may like on day one will be the thing I like several months down the line. Playing it for several weeks very often changes one's perceptions ( and, who knows, may change the horn in some way). How would you go about fitting a horn for a difficult customer like me?......

If this is an issue you are truly concerned about I would recommend two things: One is to play test instruments both when you are in good and poor shape. See what similarities there are, and think about what is a higher priority for you, a horn that feels great when you are just starting out, or a horn that rewards peak physical condition. I would hazard a guess that the answer may be somewhere in between.

The second is to get an instrument that is a middle of the road kind of horn. Some that has been proven to work generally well for a wide variety of people in a wide variety of settings. In this instance, I might suggest you start with our new Q-Series before looking at the custom instruments. If stepping up to the custom series, I might recommend staying within one of our standard models or a minor variation thereof.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:19 am

You know, Ben, sometimes I get the feeling that you spend an awful lot of time nudging people back toward the middle of the road...

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:58 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Sep 19, 2016, 06:15AMThis is based on our BI taper bell. While the spec is lightweight, this plays heftier to me. The response is round, on both yellow and gold brass bells, and it doesn't get edge to the sound as some other lightweight bass bells I have played. The entire package balances very nicely. We've had some other players try them out and everyone has been very pleased with the sound and response.

Just what I was looking for! Hope to try one soon

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:12 am

Quote from: JohnL on Sep 19, 2016, 11:19AMYou know, Ben, sometimes I get the feeling that you spend an awful lot of time nudging people back toward the middle of the road...

There's a reason that it's the middle of the road...

But seriously, certain things just plain work well together and are more timeless. The only thing that makes it the middle of the road is that many, many people have independently agreed that _______ works well.

I am completely given to flights of fancy. Wonderfully exotic specs. The what-ifs. I'm also in the rare environment that I can sometimes put these things together and try them. Some are great, some less so. I've also spent countless thousands of my own hard earned cash buying up trombones, both odd and mainstream. At the end of the day, for my own freelancing career, I almost always revert to a mainstream style instrument, because it just plain does the job well. So do most of the countless professionals I am fortunate to work with and listen to on a regular basis.

There's a moment in our appointments that one generally knows when we've hit the right combination. It's what I call the light switch moment. One can here it in the sound and see it in the physicality of the player: "This is it". If that winds up having specs that are off the beaten path, I'm not going to argue with them. It is, after all, why we do custom horns! But more often then not, when the sound and feel are the primary gauges, it winds up being something that many other people have also agreed that works.

And in the end, this is a good thing for the player. Many thousands of people have already done the field testing. We have found the combinations that work really well for a majority of players. We can then offer them to you through a wider dealer supply network. These dealers can stock the things that the player actually wants to play.

There's more good trombones in the world, and that makes my heart glad.

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:11 pm

Ben, what tends to make a bass trombone sound more like a slide tuba? And no I am not interested in that, I love the bass trombone sound!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:14 pm

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Sep 21, 2016, 01:11PMBen, what tends to make a bass trombone sound more like a slide tuba? And no I am not interested in that, I love the bass trombone sound!

That depends on what one thinks a slide tuba sounds like. Not meaning to sound flip, but I've heard many people use that phrase to describe some very different sounds (and have heard some people describe the same sound as epic, or great).

In general, I think people are referring to an overly large sound, focused on lower overtones, and without focus or definition.

That can come from different places. It could be that a part or pars of the equation are just too big. Too big a mouthpiece, leadpipe, slide, whatever. It could be that parts of the equipment are geared to really big, dark sounds that emphasize that over core and definition. Could be really leaky valves. Could be a franken-bone. Could be something that has nothing to do with the trombone.

Could be what the player actually hears in their head. (In my capacity as a Shires representative, it's not for me to artistically judge.)

I would need to hear the player and experience what is going on first hand.

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:58 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Sep 21, 2016, 02:14PM
Could be what the player actually hears in their head. (In my capacity as a Shires representative, it's not for me to artistically judge.)

Great response but I'd love to know more about this!

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:41 pm

Ben,

Do you think the Bollinger horn is good in solo work? Blair sounds great with it but do you think it is good for mear mortal players? Not my question a buddies.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:56 am

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Sep 28, 2016, 01:41PMBen,

Do you think the Bollinger horn is good in solo work? Blair sounds great with it but do you think it is good for mear mortal players? Not my question a buddies.

I have to be honest here...when I saw the specs for the Bollinger model before I started working at Shires I thought it was a ridiculous instrument (without having played it yet). From the specs it looked like a big, ponderous horn.

Then I played it.

Nothing could be further from the truth. This is an extremely responsive instrument, very fast with great articulation and a big sound without feeling huge. There's room to make the sound as big as you want or as direct as you want. This is a great horn, and everyone that plays it is surprised. I think it's a great solo horn. I think it's a great commercial/jazz horn. I think it's a great orchestral trombone. I think it's an excellent all around bass trombone. You have to play it to see if the sound is your cup of tea, but I think that it's entirely appropriate for many applications.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A little aside. This instrument was a big wake up call to me that an instrument can't be judged solely by specs. I've gotten pretty familiar with the Shires system of parts and how the work together. There have been surprises along the way. Taking the instrument for what it actually is and not being prejudiced by the specs is of utmost importance when trying to fit an instrument. Pretty much no one in the audience will care about the measurements of your horn, only how it sounds.

ttf_fwbassbone · Post by **ttf_fwbassbone** » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:42 am

Before I bought my Bollinger horn I talked to Ben about what I wanted in a horn and came up with a different set of specs. When I called the local Shires dealer and said I was going to order one they told me they had one in stock that I could play if I wanted to. When they said it was the Bollinger Model I said that wasn't what I was looking for but I would play it. I went in a couple of days later, played the horn, took it home, didn't give it back. It's a great horn and I use it for everything, big band, brass band, quartet, quintet, solo.

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:40 am

Quote from: griffinben on Sep 29, 2016, 05:56AMI have to be honest here...when I saw the specs for the Bollinger model before I started working at Shires I thought it was a ridiculous instrument (without having played it yet). From the specs it looked like a big, ponderous horn.

Then I played it.

Nothing could be further from the truth. This is an extremely responsive instrument, very fast with great articulation and a big sound without feeling huge. There's room to make the sound as big as you want or as direct as you want. This is a great horn, and everyone that plays it is surprised. I think it's a great solo horn. I think it's a great commercial/jazz horn. I think it's a great orchestral trombone. I think it's an excellent all around bass trombone. You have to play it to see if the sound is your cup of tea, but I think that it's entirely appropriate for many applications.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A little aside. This instrument was a big wake up call to me that an instrument can't be judged solely by specs. I've gotten pretty familiar with the Shires system of parts and how the work together. There have been surprises along the way. Taking the instrument for what it actually is and not being prejudiced by the specs is of utmost importance when trying to fit an instrument. Pretty much no one in the audience will care about the measurements of your horn, only how it sounds.

What makes the Bollinger model and the " standard" custom series horn different? Not specs...sounds.

Thanks again

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:33 am

Quote from: griffinben on Sep 21, 2016, 02:14PMThat depends on what one thinks a slide tuba sounds like. Not meaning to sound flip, but I've heard many people use that phrase to describe some very different sounds (and have heard some people describe the same sound as epic, or great).

In general, I think people are referring to an overly large sound, focused on lower overtones, and without focus or definition.

That can come from different places. It could be that a part or pars of the equation are just too big. Too big a mouthpiece, leadpipe, slide, whatever. It could be that parts of the equipment are geared to really big, dark sounds that emphasize that over core and definition. Could be really leaky valves. Could be a franken-bone. Could be something that has nothing to do with the trombone.

Could be what the player actually hears in their head. (In my capacity as a Shires representative, it's not for me to artistically judge.)

I would need to hear the player and experience what is going on first hand.

In addition to what Ben stated it also has a lot to do with the individual player. For the longest time when I'd hear someone play with a setup I would consider big I'd think that the "slide tuba" effect was coming through. But then after speaking with certain players after I heard them play I realized that it was their approach to articulations that added to the "slide tuba" sound. When you add a "wah, wah," attack to a huge setup it can , to me, add to the slide tuba effect.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:23 am

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Sep 29, 2016, 11:40AMWhat makes the Bollinger model and the " standard" custom series horn different? Not specs...sounds.

Thanks again

I would hesitate to think of the instrument in absolute terms, as in it always sounds __________ way. As Bill mentioned above, there's a lot that has to do with the individual. So different players have different reactions to horns. I can't anyone exact sounds of this compared to that because it's different for the individual.

In very general terms, the Bollinger model has a dense but wide core to the sound, and snappier, faster responding articulations as compared to our standard Shires Custom bass trombone. For some people, that core is too dense and the articulations too quick and prominent. For others, just right. The George Curran model is the opposite side of the coin. The Shires Custom bass is right in the middle, in feel and sound (at least, I think so).

For those general statements there's going to be several people that will say the opposite. I suggest trying them both. Visit us or a local stocking dealer, these are popular horns are generally around. Then you'll find how it reacts to you (or your friend).

- Ben

ttf_mybodyisbretty · Post by **ttf_mybodyisbretty** » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:22 am

Do you make custom tuning slides? I recently bought a used Shires that came with a silver tuning slide which I can't find on your website, but it looks identical to the normal shires TS I have on my old one.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:02 am

It is most likely nickel. I have a few friends that play nickel tuning slides.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:46 am

Quote from: mybodyisbretty on Oct 01, 2016, 09:22AMDo you make custom tuning slides? I recently bought a used Shires that came with a silver tuning slide which I can't find on your website, but it looks identical to the normal shires TS I have on my old one.

On occasion we will do custom tuning slides, depending on what it is. Contact us or a local dealer to see what is possible if you are interested. Sounds like your is a nickel tuning slide.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:10 pm

I've seen a few Shires bells that have not aged well. Lacquer chipped, acid bleed. I guess some components have been out there for more than 20 years now.

Does Shires offer any sort of repair/refurbishing services?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:14 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Oct 04, 2016, 03:10PMI've seen a few Shires bells that have not aged well. Lacquer chipped, acid bleed. I guess some components have been out there for more than 20 years now.

Does Shires offer any sort of repair/refurbishing services?

We do offer refinishing on all of our instruments, though we charge for anything deemed not be warranty work. Actual cost is based on both the component/instrument and the condition of the part/s to be refinished on a case by case basis.

I should note that we made a very conscious decision to shoot a thinner layer of lacquer on our instruments. We found that that thicker lacquer dulled the sound and response. We chose to put the sound and feel of the instruments first. Some instruments do age very well, but it is largely based on conditions (environment and owner). We have shot a double layer of lacquer by custom request or silver plated (additional) cost for those concerned about longevity of the finish.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:17 am

I have a very broad, general question. I realize this is going to be an oversimplification, but I'm just curious as more of a jumping off point...

The "custom" bass (BII 7YM, B62) seems to be a great all-around horn designed to work in most all idioms. My question: if someone wanted two basses that were more 'specialized' - one for orchestral/large wind ensemble playing and one for big band, what would start out with for baseline specs for each? This is less about the player and more about the mainstream thinking on equipment choice. Or maybe there is a trend with players from each camp where they tend to pick X over Y.

I know we could all digress into sound concept, preferences, etc. I'm just curious about the hardware aspect of it. Or maybe there is no difference. That would be a totally valid answer, too.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:46 pm

Quote from: tbathras on Oct 28, 2016, 09:17AMI have a very broad, general question. I realize this is going to be an oversimplification, but I'm just curious as more of a jumping off point...

The "custom" bass (BII 7YM, B62) seems to be a great all-around horn designed to work in most all idioms. My question: if someone wanted two basses that were more 'specialized' - one for orchestral/large wind ensemble playing and one for big band, what would start out with for baseline specs for each? This is less about the player and more about the mainstream thinking on equipment choice. Or maybe there is a trend with players from each camp where they tend to pick X over Y.

I know we could all digress into sound concept, preferences, etc. I'm just curious about the hardware aspect of it. Or maybe there is no difference. That would be a totally valid answer, too.

It is truly is a matter of personal opinion/preferences.

Commercial bass trombones seem to be far less standardized than other horns. It's not as easy as saying one should get a small bore tenor to play in a big band or a large bore for an orchestra, and there's disagreements with those opinions too!

The only real consistent request I've heard (for a jazz/commercial instrument) is for a quick responding, articulate instrument. I generally feel our horns already do that. After that it's in the ear of the beholder.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:07 pm

I'm completely with Ben on this answer. I don't want my orchestral instrument to be overly dark to the point where I have to work incredibly hard for brilliance of any kind. When that was (sort of) the fashion in orchestral playing I was not comfortable with trying for it, and I actually find that I get the most crass, ugly sound when my instrument - especially the bell - is too heavy. So I play the same horn in an orchestra that I play in a big band.

That said, Harold Van Schaik (BassBoneFL here on the forum) does like to use a different setup when he plays in a more commercial style. In the orchestra he typically plays something very similar to the "standard" Custom Bass Trombone, with axial valves and a dual bore slide. In big bands and show settings he likes a single bore slide, rotary valves, and I think a BI 2RLW, maybe even T7. I've heard recordings of him with that horn - it sounds great, and he sounds completely comfortable.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:57 pm

Thanks Ben and Gabe. This confirms what I thought.

I asked mainly because I have found myself with two horns - a BI 1G with trubores and a 562 slide and a BII 7YM with axials and a 562/78 slide. Just really trying to justify to myself keeping them both. I've also got a BII 7GM10 that I like the sound of I'm trying to find a use for.

I like all the parts but all for different reasons.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:26 pm

I have a gvt issue Shires that I would like to know more about.

First, where is the serial # located on these instruments? Nothing jumps out at me that screams SN.

2nd where is the bell type marked? Mine just has the marking "C HI" between the bell stay and the start of the tuning slide on the bell. It could be "C H 1" but it is not written as "1" it is a "l" mark.

I don't see where the tuning slide is marked either.

I can clearly see the slide marking which is "B32NLWC" **edit: the 3 may be a cut off "6". In which case, I want to really hurt whichever clown ordered this extremely specific setup that is appropriate for almost nobody.

The slide and bell unfortunately are not listed on the website.

I have a hunch that whoever ordered the horn and chose the parts had no clue ... definitely was not a pro shop stop and was pieced together sight unseen.

Which brings up a final question: do the folks at Shires try to steer people away from known "what were you thinking?" gear setups?

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:50 pm

Sounds like the Chicago model except with a .562 slide which is the way they actually do it in Chicago.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:53 pm

Quote from: bbocaner on Nov 14, 2016, 05:50PMSounds like the Chicago model except with a .562 slide which is the way they actually do it in Chicago.

If that's true then dang nab it, I am not compatible with what they are playing in Chicago!

To clarify, this is the horn I was issued to play marches on out doors. Not ideal for that application. I ended up having to use the "3" pipe to get it working better. :0

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:06 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Nov 14, 2016, 03:26PMI have a gvt issue Shires that I would like to know more about.

First, where is the serial # located on these instruments? Nothing jumps out at me that screams SN.

2nd where is the bell type marked? Mine just has the marking "C HI" between the bell stay and the start of the tuning slide on the bell. It could be "C H 1" but it is not written as "1" it is a "l" mark.

I don't see where the tuning slide is marked either.

I can clearly see the slide marking which is "B32NLWC" **edit: the 3 may be a cut off "6". In which case, I want to really hurt whichever clown ordered this extremely specific setup that is appropriate for almost nobody.

The slide and bell unfortunately are not listed on the website.

I have a hunch that whoever ordered the horn and chose the parts had no clue ... definitely was not a pro shop stop and was pieced together sight unseen.

Which brings up a final question: do the folks at Shires try to steer people away from known "what were you thinking?" gear setups?

Hello Harrison,

This does, indeed, sound like an early Chicago model. "CHI" is for Chicago on the bell, the tuning slide likely has an "X" stamped on the large ferrule, and the slide is a B62NLWC. The B62NLWC differs from the B62NLW in that it has a tenor trombone crook.

The components of this instrument were designed to go together and work together. Some people prefer the B62NLW slide, however the current Chicago model has a TB47NLW. many people are more comfortable with this and the Chicago model has become a favorite with our customers. A B62NLWC is available for those that continue to prefer the large slide.

The serial number is located on the handslide receiver portion of the valve section.

We try to give the best possible advice to all of our customers to complete the trombones they are looking for. As we are all different people, some instruments do not fit everyone. Your experience is something we have heard about before; an instrument purchased for a previous service member isn't the best fit for another service member. This is true of many brands, not just Shires. If you have the chance, I would recommend trying out the TB47NLW or getting to a dealer or show where you can try a current Chicago model out.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:17 am

Yes I see now that I am just misinformed and ignorant about the instrument. I can also see where it would be very awesome behind 100 other musicians.

In a 20 person military band outdoors? Too much for me! I also find it interesting that the setup only becomes manageable for me with a 3 leadpipe! I would have thought the opposite.

Thanks for the info.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:39 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Nov 14, 2016, 03:26PMFirst, where is the serial # located on these instruments? Nothing jumps out at me that screams SN.

If I'm not mistaken, this question was unanswered. The only serial number on Shires large tenors and basses is on the slide receiver just above the locknut, on the valve section. Straight neckpipes bear no serial number at all, and I can't speak for the small bores or altos.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:10 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Nov 15, 2016, 07:17AMYes I see now that I am just misinformed and ignorant about the instrument. I can also see where it would be very awesome behind 100 other musicians.

In a 20 person military band outdoors? Too much for me! I also find it interesting that the setup only becomes manageable for me with a 3 leadpipe! I would have thought the opposite.

Thanks for the info.

You using your Griego 1C for that? Might behoove you to try something with a tighter throat. Friedman's mouthpieces have shifted that direction over the years and I can say that when I played a similar setup, the tighter throated mouthpieces worked much better for me. Might not help that much in a marching band either way though, fwiw.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:57 am

The weird thing was that it felt stuffy and unresponsive until I swapped out the B2 pipe for the B3 pipe. Then the resonance and push back that I am always after came into the horn. Now it sounds fine, but it's still just very very different from what I am used to and probably not what most would choose for small ceremonial ensembles.

Yep, this is with my 1C. I am not about to go on a mouthpiece quest for a trombone that isn't mine. For whatever reason it seems to pair OK with the B3. Very surprising to me.

I actually don't mind the blow on it with the new pipe, but I suspect that the light nickel slide is the opposite if where I would have gone. Perhaps a yellow or rose brass slide would have been enough for me to not notice how different the Chicago model is from what I'm used to.

Also, I think I see the SN now. 4 digits only!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:54 am

Quote from: sfboner on Nov 15, 2016, 01:39PMIf I'm not mistaken, this question was unanswered. The only serial number on Shires large tenors and basses is on the slide receiver just above the locknut, on the valve section. Straight neckpipes bear no serial number at all, and I can't speak for the small bores or altos.

QuoteThe serial number is located on the handslide receiver portion of the valve section.
QuoteAlso, I think I see the SN now. 4 digits only!
I should note that we have started stamping our neckpipes with serial numbers now.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:58 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Nov 16, 2016, 06:57AMThe weird thing was that it felt stuffy and unresponsive until I swapped out the B2 pipe for the B3 pipe. Then the resonance and push back that I am always after came into the horn. Now it sounds fine, but it's still just very very different from what I am used to and probably not what most would choose for small ceremonial ensembles.

Yep, this is with my 1C. I am not about to go on a mouthpiece quest for a trombone that isn't mine. For whatever reason it seems to pair OK with the B3. Very surprising to me.

I actually don't mind the blow on it with the new pipe, but I suspect that the light nickel slide is the opposite if where I would have gone. Perhaps a yellow or rose brass slide would have been enough for me to not notice how different the Chicago model is from what I'm used to.

The B3 leadpipe established the correct (or at least better) balance between the instrument, your mouthpiece, and you.

Sometimes going larger makes it feel more responsive and focused. Sometimes smaller makes it feel bigger. It's about establishing the correct balance and focus for the individual.

Ben

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:38 am

But it might work even better with a B1 or B1.5. Sometimes extremes work better than moderation.

FWIW, when I play tenor trombone I play a Chicago model with a B62NLW, and I use a mouthpiece even bigger than Harrison's Griego 1C. The B1.5 is the pipe that feels right for me in that setting.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:43 am

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Nov 17, 2016, 09:38AMBut it might work even better with a B1 or B1.5. Sometimes extremes work better than moderation.

FWIW, when I play tenor trombone I play a Chicago model with a B62NLW, and I use a mouthpiece even bigger than Harrison's Griego 1C. The B1.5 is the pipe that feels right for me in that setting.

I found the most success with a B1.5 in this slide as well, but with a much smaller mouthpiece than either of those.

ttf_John McKevitt · Post by **ttf_John McKevitt** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:30 am

Wow , This Q & A is still active. Hi Ben, Shires Bass Trombones seem to have a lot of bracing in comparison to other Bass's and German/Euro Horns.Is there any noticeable difference in the way a SHires Bass plays as is compared to one with minimal bracing. I recently picked up a new seamed Shires Tuning slide . I compared it with my Large Bore Tenors. After removing and replacing the Counter weight several times I just put it on my rear bell brace on my straight Tenor. After I quit comparing Tuning slides with my components I placed it back on the Tuning slide cross brace. The sound seem choked in comparison to the weight being on the rear bell brace.Have you experimented on Tuning slides without the cross brace? Any Valve Trombone models(3 0r 4 piston valve sections) in the works. Possibly a large bore piston valve section? Excuse me if these questions have already been asked. I did not read all 53 pages .. Best Wishes , John McKevitt

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:23 am

Quote from: John McKevitt on Dec 09, 2016, 09:30AMWow , This Q & A is still active. Hi Ben, Shires Bass Trombones seem to have a lot of bracing in comparison to other Bass's and German/Euro Horns.Is there any noticeable difference in the way a SHires Bass plays as is compared to one with minimal bracing. I recently picked up a new seamed Shires Tuning slide . I compared it with my Large Bore Tenors. After removing and replacing the Counter weight several times I just put it on my rear bell brace on my straight Tenor. After I quit comparing Tuning slides with my components I placed it back on the Tuning slide cross brace. The sound seem choked in comparison to the weight being on the rear bell brace.Have you experimented on Tuning slides without the cross brace? Any Valve Trombone models(3 0r 4 piston valve sections) in the works. Possibly a large bore piston valve section? Excuse me if these questions have already been asked. I did not read all 53 pages .. Best Wishes , John McKevitt

Hi John,

We've done quite a bit of experiments with bracing and our current system with standard weight valve sections provided the best balance of playibility and structural integrity for most people. There may appear to be more bracing on the valve tubing because the modular nature of our instruments mean we cannot attach the valve section directly to the bell. We do make a lightweight valve section that removes the brace from the F and Gb (or G) tuning slides of tenor/bass axials and rotors.

We have custom made main tuning slides without braces, for people that want a more "open" feel. In general, most people prefer the slotting characteristics of having the brace to the more open, but less defined quality of the no-brace tuning slides. Weight on the tuning slide is something small bore players have been hip to for many years, many preferring to go without a counterweight for the quicker response and more open feel.

We currently do not have any plans for a valve trombone, three four - large bore otherwise. We also have no plans for a large bore piston valve section...we already offer four different kinds of valves with distinct personalities.

I hope this helps, please let us know if you have any other questions.

-Ben

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:49 am

FWIW, if you really want a 3 valve piston section, a small bore Bach 16 section might fit the threads. Certainly try before you buy though.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:08 am

Quote from: Matt K on Dec 12, 2016, 06:49AMFWIW, if you really want a 3 valve piston section, a small bore Bach 16 section might fit the threads. Certainly try before you buy though.

I've spoken to and worked with John a bit, and I'm not sure this is quite what John is looking for. But on the off chance he or any one is interested in using a different slide with one of our bell sections, we generally recommend changing the bell receiver section of the slide with one of our parts. It's a relatively inexpensive part and fairly easy to change out on most horns.

However, I would be concerned about the length of the valves/slides vs. the bell section and any potential jump in bore from the slide/valve section to the receiver and neckpipe. The results could be an instrument that is way sharp or flat (length differences) or one with some wonky intonation (jump in bore sizes).

-Ben

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:41 am

On the Shires website the Vintage Elkhart 's description states the slide crook is yellow brass although the picture of said instrument shows a nickel crook. Which is it? If it's the yellow crook why was that chosen over the nickel as all the vintage Conns I've seen have had nickel crooks?......