Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_Mahlerbone · Post by **ttf_Mahlerbone** » Fri May 20, 2016 6:54 am

Hi Ben,

Can you explain the differences between all the different tuning slides? For small bore I understand that there is a 1 and 1.5. Also according to the website there are X and seamed/unseamed tuning slides. I'd like to know the characteristics of all of these. One player with a seamed tuning slide said that he finds that his horn is more resonant, projects better and he finds it easier to play. But on the website it also says that seamed tuning slides can provide less feedback to the player, which doesn't make much sense to me if the horn is more resonant. Can you clarify this for me?

Finally, when I first got my bass trombone over a decade ago I had a C tuning slide. Articulations were very pointed and the tone was bright. Switching to the B tuning slide toned everything down. Articulations became more covered and I got a warmer sound. It was interesting how adding resistance changed the whole horn for the better (for me).

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri May 20, 2016 8:37 am

Quote from: Mahlerbone on May 20, 2016, 06:54AMHi Ben,

Can you explain the differences between all the different tuning slides? For small bore I understand that there is a 1 and 1.5. Also according to the website there are X and seamed/unseamed tuning slides. I'd like to know the characteristics of all of these. One player with a seamed tuning slide said that he finds that his horn is more resonant, projects better and he finds it easier to play. But on the website it also says that seamed tuning slides can provide less feedback to the player, which doesn't make much sense to me if the horn is more resonant. Can you clarify this for me?

Finally, when I first got my bass trombone over a decade ago I had a C tuning slide. Articulations were very pointed and the tone was bright. Switching to the B tuning slide toned everything down. Articulations became more covered and I got a warmer sound. It was interesting how adding resistance changed the whole horn for the better (for me).

I'd be happy to go through all of these. Before I do, I want to visit (re-visit?) one key concept about custom components, and horns and their components in general.

Every person is different. In SO many ways. When it comes to music making and playing the trombone (which can be related or exclusive on a sliding scale, pun intended) we are unique as well. Our ability. Our physical make up, including dental structure, lung capacity, physical size. Our musical reference point/history and goals. Our hearing, both objectively and subjectively. We are ALL different. Infinitely so.

So when we get to verbally describing different kinds of equipment without a reference point, we will almost certainly not be entirely accurate (again, a sliding scale) for a portion of the playing community. Because there is no way to account for that almost infinite variation. Its the nature of the beast. All we can do is look at the vast middle ground, the results/feedback that is repeated most often and go with that as a guidepost.

However, we have gotten pretty good at fitting people with things once we have a reference point. Or two. Or ten. The more info we have, generally the more accurate we can be with predictions. Because we have seen repeated results for certain kinds of players on certain kinds of equipment. Are there outliers? Sure. But the more reference we have, the more accurate we can be. Reading about the specs only works so well. Emailing back and forth is better. Talking on the phone is better still. And an in person visit is the best. Because we can have a more detailed reference point for each (or more easily establish those reference points).

So in your specific case the seamed tuning slide didn't completely jibe with the written description for the player you know. That's okay! The important thing is that it works for that player. It's also why we describe things with the words "it can" vs. "It does".

OK, the tuning slides:

Small Bore

[li]SY - Original small bore tuning slide, and the largest feel[/li][li]SY1.0 - variation with slightly more compact feel[/li][li]SY1.5 - variation with the most compact feel, which seems to relate more closely to other small bore instruments. Our most popular by a wide margin.[/li]

I should note that all small bore tuning slides have the same rate of taper, but are different sizes to aid the feel. All are available in gold brass, which can warm up the sound at some expense to brilliance, response, and clarity. Your mileage may vary, but I only sold one gold brass small bore tuning slide last year. Compared to dozens, if not hundreds, of yellow brass.

Large/Medium bore

[li]TY - Standard tuning slide model, yellow brass. The "B" tunign slide fromt he earliest days of Shires. Open sound and feel, very articulate.[/li][li]TYS - Same taper as TY but made of a sheet of brass rolled and seamed. Can provide a denser and/or more compact feel. Some players experience more rounded articulations. I find this tuning slide to feel more like a vintage Conn 8/88H tuning slide with the plate on the back. For some it provides the "just right" feel.[/li][li]TX - Modified tuning slide to more closely align overtones to that of Bach instruments. For some people this can also provide a different focus that better balances the instrument for them.[/li]

All of the above tuning slides are available in gold brass, which can have the same characteristics as listed above.
The TX tuning slide is also available seamed, however it seems to provide almost too compact a feel for most people. We've only made two or three in the history of the company.

Bass

[li]BYB - More compact, in yellow brass[/li][li]BYC - Larger, in yellow brass[/li][li]BB - Bollinger tunign slide. C taper with a different lower leg. Provides immediate response and crisp articulation/slotting paired with larger feel[/li]

Any of the above are available in gold brass. (Change the "Y" to "G"; for example BYB vs. BGB.
Any of the above are available seamed. (Add and "S" to the end; for example BYBS.) Of the seamed versions, the BYCS seems to provide the nicest middle ground, not too extreme in either direction
[/list]

Okay...with all of this said, I want to bring up another word: balance.

The descriptions above are general. It's an "all things being equal" kind of scenario. But things aren't all equal, and so your mileage may vary. I find that everyone, and I do mean everyone, strikes a balance with the instrument that includes a focal point. For some, that focal point is near the front of the instrument. For some the middle or back. For others, they create the focal point themselves (!) and need an instrument that will not interfere with that.

When we find the right balance in the right place, the instrument will often "come alive" and everything improves: sound, response, articulation, flexibility...you name it. We use the different tuning slides to help create the right balance in more toward the back of the horn. In your case, the BYB gives the right balance and even though it is physically "smaller", the results are LARGER.

One can also think of this like an eyeglass prescription. It doesn't matter if the lens is weaker or stronger (we made up those words), it only matters that everything becomes CLEARER when we find the right one. It strikes the right balance.

I hope this helps.

ttf_Mahlerbone · Post by **ttf_Mahlerbone** » Fri May 20, 2016 9:04 am

I was at Dillon Music two or three years ago, and they had the Morandini model in stock. I was skeptical before I played it because it had an axial valve, and I've always found that axial valve horns required more effort for me to play. To my surprise it played quite easily. Very responsive with a well balanced tone. I was browsing the website today and discovered that this horn has a seamed tuning slide. So it could be possible that a seamed tuning slide is a better fit for me. Other than that Morandini horn I don't think I've ever tried one.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri May 20, 2016 1:40 pm

Quote from: Mahlerbone on May 20, 2016, 09:04AMI was at Dillon Music two or three years ago, and they had the Morandini model in stock. I was skeptical before I played it because it had an axial valve, and I've always found that axial valve horns required more effort for me to play. To my surprise it played quite easily. Very responsive with a well balanced tone. I was browsing the website today and discovered that this horn has a seamed tuning slide. So it could be possible that a seamed tuning slide is a better fit for me. Other than that Morandini horn I don't think I've ever tried one.

There's much more going on with the Morandini model (now discontinued) than just the tuning slide. But it would be good to try a seamed tuning slide by itself.

ttf_trombone addict · Sat May 21, 2016 10:38 am

Why was that model discontinued?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon May 23, 2016 11:01 am

Quote from: trombone addict on May 21, 2016, 10:38AMWhy was that model discontinued?

I should say that it is no longer available as a standard model, I'm sure we could build one custom order if someone really wanted it. In general, we had other models we wanted to introduce that have sold at a much higher volume.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Mon May 23, 2016 11:14 am

Here's a general question regarding insuring a Shires horn (sorry if this was covered before, I didn't see it)

My insurance company requires 2 things to cover a horn: 1) a serial number, 2) an appraisal

From what I can tell, there are no serial numbers for Shires, so what do people typically do? And who would be able to do an accurate appraisal on a used horn? I live up in Maine and I don't want to drive a zillion miles unless I have to.

Thanks,
Tim

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Mon May 23, 2016 6:47 pm

My insurance company only requires appraisals on horns worth more than $5000. I'm sure one of our resident sellers (DJ?) could do appraisals from photos.

For serial numbers, I just use whatever numbers I can find on a Shires. Insurance companies don't know what serial numbers look like.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Mon May 23, 2016 8:08 pm

Quote from: SilverBone on May 23, 2016, 06:47PMFor serial numbers, I just use whatever numbers I can find on a Shires. Insurance companies don't know what serial numbers look like.

The only issue with that might be if I get an appraisal, it has to have the 'serial number' on it and then they record that number in the policy... Then what if I saw the bell, or slide? Serial number changes and would invalidate the appraisal.

That was just my thinking. I will probably do just that and put the specs into one long 'serial number'. It is unlikely I'll swap out any parts.

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Mon May 23, 2016 8:14 pm

On my 2 basses, the serial numbers are on the valve section at the handslide receiver.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed May 25, 2016 5:08 am

Quote from: tbathras on May 23, 2016, 11:14AMHere's a general question regarding insuring a Shires horn (sorry if this was covered before, I didn't see it)

My insurance company requires 2 things to cover a horn: 1) a serial number, 2) an appraisal

From what I can tell, there are no serial numbers for Shires, so what do people typically do? And who would be able to do an accurate appraisal on a used horn? I live up in Maine and I don't want to drive a zillion miles unless I have to.

Thanks,
Tim

Your insurance provider will tell you what you need to be covered under the policy. In general, we've provided a quote and the customer uses the serial number on the valve section. Our prices are largely based on what valve section you have with the instrument, so other specs can largely change without worry. In the instance you change specs, your valve section (serial number), or other parts that might incur an up-charge over the price of the instrument you originally purchased, it is up to the customer to update their policy with their insurance provider.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed May 25, 2016 7:10 am

Quote from: griffinben on May 25, 2016, 05:08AMYour insurance provider will tell you what you need to be covered under the policy. In general, we've provided a quote and the customer uses the serial number on the valve section. Our prices are largely based on what valve section you have with the instrument, so other specs can largely change without worry. In the instance you change specs, your valve section (serial number), or other parts that might incur an up-charge over the price of the instrument you originally purchased, it is up to the customer to update their policy with their insurance provider.

Thanks for the info. Do you provide quotes for used horns not directly purchased from you?

Thanks,
Tim

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed May 25, 2016 10:53 am

We can provide a quote of replacement cost of a new instrument, regardless of where you originally purchased the instrument.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed May 25, 2016 10:59 am

Quote from: griffinben on May 25, 2016, 10:53AMWe can provide a quote of replacement cost of a new instrument, regardless of where you originally purchased the instrument.

Great! I will email you with details.

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:59 am

I'd just like to thank both Ben and Gabe for their input to my questions over the past year or so.

I've been playing the fruits of their answers for the last few weeks, when my new components arrived at work.

BII 7YM bell flare
B and C tuning slides (yellow)
B62 slide
Dependent thayers

The valves were an existing valve set (retained for budget reasons), but everything else is new.

I'm not sure I've played a more even, predictable bass trombone. Response top to bottom is very similar, so it's easy to be accurate and consistent. I thought the C tuning slide would be what I gravitated towards (probably because it felt more familiar at first), but I think the B tuning slide is the front-runner. It brings a little more point and focus to the sound. I've been playing dual-bore, thayer basses (Edwards, Shires) for many years, so the single bore slide is quite a change for me. But this setup, as a complete unit, is compelling. Easy colour at moderate dynamics, efficient and responsive to air and articulation subtleties, and good spread in the lower register when required.

I still wonder what the tru-bore valves may have brought to the package, but as I mentioned, budget became an issue for my workplace.

I'm looking forward to seeing how me and the horn are getting along in 6 months time, but it's very promising thus far.

Thanks again, chaps!

Andrew

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:38 pm

When did the bell engraving change from "USA" to "Boston Massachusetts"?

Andrew

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:17 am

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Jun 05, 2016, 10:38PMWhen did the bell engraving change from "USA" to "Boston Massachusetts"?

Andrew

Also Ben, can you still get bells hand engraved?.....

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:07 am

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Jun 05, 2016, 10:38PMWhen did the bell engraving change from "USA" to "Boston Massachusetts"?

Andrew

A few months ago. I do not have an exact date, but you can mark your calendar to Late winter/Spring 2016. We felt this better represented the origin of manufacture to reflect what people think of when they think of us.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:08 am

Quote from: Duffle on Jun 06, 2016, 04:17AMAlso Ben, can you still get bells hand engraved?.....

Yes, we can send them out to be hand engraved for extra cost. How much depends on how elaborate you want to get. Contact us directly for pricing.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:40 am

Quote from: griffinben on Jun 06, 2016, 09:07AMA few months ago. I do not have an exact date, but you can mark your calendar to Late winter/Spring 2016. We felt this better represented the origin of manufacture to reflect what people think of when they think of us.

I'm surprised that wasn't the case from the get go. SE Shires, Cranberries, Maple Syrup from Belchertown and Quabbin, Chowdah, and Beer are the best things that MA exports or people come to MA for. For all its downfalls, those things are what I tell people about when they ask about where I'm from.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:16 pm

The bottom inner slide tube of my bass has detached from whatever the part that it plugs into is called - is it a tenon? I was getting it serviced and the tech noticed that it was "wobbly" and he twisted it and it came right out. He says that there is still some tubing left in the tenon. He thinks it has sheared off and there is some of the tube left, but the fact that it is a clean cut suggests otherwise.

Can you tell me how the inner slide is attached to the tenon? A picture or diagram would be good.

thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:44 am

Please send me a message, [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], and I can help you out through that channel.

Ben

ttf_Euphoni · Post by **ttf_Euphoni** » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:28 pm

Any suggestions on some bass bells that might balance out the heaviness of an all nickel b62-73 slide (w/ yellow C tuning slide)?

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:34 pm

*Edit

Never mind I misread something haha

ttf_M.R.Tenor · Post by **ttf_M.R.Tenor** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:24 am

Would the difference between a TII 7(soldered) and a TI 8(unsoldered) bell be more in sound or feel? I have never seen the 8 bell or a player that used one, how come?

Also, are there any general tips on how to know which gold component to swap in on an all yellow horn if the player is looking to modify the feel, slotting, or sound? What are the typical results with the difference between trying gold slide tubes versus a gold tuning slide versus some gold in the bell and how do you adapt this choice to the needs of the player if you're thinking they would benefit from some gold brass in the horn?

Thanks

ttf_Nathan Wood · Post by **ttf_Nathan Wood** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:04 am

My $.02: the difference in price for a [new] slide vs. tuning slide is just under $1,000 so a tuning slide sounds like a good place to start

I feel like in general the closer to your face a component is the greater affect it has on the end result. Slide tubes are also a lot of surface area on the horn so that may be part of it. But for me on my all yellow brass setup (7YLWTB, seamed yellow tuning slide, Bach 42 slide) it follows the Shires descriptions on their website to a T: warmer, maybe denser sound, with slightly veiled articulations. With a tuning slide the result is more subtle and just changes the color and articulation a little, but I did spend about two years on a TW47G slide. The sustained sound was GLORIOUS and rich and dense but it took more work than I wanted to articulate anything. It was even more exaggerated with my 2.5G leadpipe but I could never use that setup for more than a few weeks because it took too much work.

Shires instruments don't "need" gold brass the same way it can help instruments from other modular trombone makers; their instruments have rich, complex sounds for most people even with all yellow brass setups (and a nickle slide crook). Even their vintage Elkhart model has an all yellow slide and tuning slide. Food for thought.

ttf_Nathan Wood · Post by **ttf_Nathan Wood** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:05 am

Also I have a 7YLWTB bell and I've gotten conflicting descriptions of what the TB is so I figure I'll ask again: what does the TB mean?

ttf_M.R.Tenor · Post by **ttf_M.R.Tenor** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:42 am

Quote from: Nathan Wood on Jun 28, 2016, 08:04AMBut for me on my all yellow brass setup (7YLWTB, seamed yellow tuning slide, Bach 42 slide... With a tuning slide the result is more subtle and just changes the color and articulation a little, but I did spend about two years on a TW47G slide. The sustained sound was GLORIOUS and rich and dense but it took more work than I wanted to articulate anything. It was even more exaggerated with my 2.5G leadpipe but I could never use that setup for more than a few weeks because it took too work.

Was that setup only with the Trubore in your profile, or did you get to try other valves with the gold slide?

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:48 am

Quote from: Nathan Wood on Jun 28, 2016, 08:04AMMy $.02: the difference in price for a [new] slide vs. tuning slide is just under $1,000 so a tuning slide sounds like a good place to start

I feel like in general the closer to your face a component is the greater affect it has on the end result. Slide tubes are also a lot of surface area on the horn so that may be part of it. But for me on my all yellow brass setup (7YLWTB, seamed yellow tuning slide, Bach 42 slide) it follows the Shires descriptions on their website to a T: warmer, maybe denser sound, with slightly veiled articulations. With a tuning slide the result is more subtle and just changes the color and articulation a little, but I did spend about two years on a TW47G slide. The sustained sound was GLORIOUS and rich and dense but it took more work than I wanted to articulate anything. It was even more exaggerated with my 2.5G leadpipe but I could never use that setup for more than a few weeks because it took too much work.

Shires instruments don't "need" gold brass the same way it can help instruments from other modular trombone makers; their instruments have rich, complex sounds for most people even with all yellow brass setups (and a nickle slide crook). Even their vintage Elkhart model has an all yellow slide and tuning slide. Food for thought.

Yes, gold brass slide tubes and tuning slide can be overkill sometimes. Shires are not Conns. Gold brass outer slide tubes work well on a Conn but at least for me on a Shires they tend to deaden the sound too much. For me........

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:56 am

Quote from: Duffle on Jun 28, 2016, 08:48AMYes, gold brass slide tubes and tuning slide can be overkill sometimes. Shires are not Conns. Gold brass outer slide tubes work well on a Conn but at least for me on a Shires they tend to deaden the sound too much. For me........

Dunno about the Conn thing, but I'm with you on Shires horns.

S.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:58 am

Quote from: Euphoni on Jun 27, 2016, 04:28PMAny suggestions on some bass bells that might balance out the heaviness of an all nickel b62-73 slide (w/ yellow C tuning slide)?

I'm not sure I understand the question. What is your current set-up and what is the "heaviness" that you are experiencing? Physical weight or perhaps a dull tone? I may be able to help with more details.

Thanks,
Ben

ttf_Mahlerbone · Post by **ttf_Mahlerbone** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:50 am

I was up at Shires yesterday, and Ben showed me how a horn is truly a sum of all its parts. It is impossible to judge an individual component by itself. I had always disliked the TB47 slide because I had found it too open and required too much air for me to handle. I had always used the standard gold tuning slide and I never really knew that other tuning slides existed until just a few months ago. Ben set me up with a TB47LYC (long yellow crook), TX tuning slide, 2Y bell (or was it 8Y?) and a rotor valve and the horn played beautifully. I couldn't believe how much easier it was to play than my own Shires, which was a TW47-7YM-standard gold tuning slide-Trubore. As a matter of fact I had become so disenchanted with my own Shires because I found it to be so hard for me to play that I gave up on it and got an Edwards Alessi trombone two months ago. Ben played my Edwards for about a minute to gather its playing characteristics and to see why I liked it so much. Then he was able to build me a horn that played very similarly to my Edwards. The Shires played brighter than my Edwards because he didn't have the gold parts in stock yesterday, but it did play just as easily, even with that TB47 style slide that I had previously frowned upon. The difference, Ben explained to me, was that the TX tuning slide is more similar to a Bach 42 (which is like the Alessi) and the yellow brass end crook (which the Alessi horn also has.)

So the two lessons that I learned yesterday were (1) never judge an individual component by itself and (2) I truly believe again that Shires can build a horn for anybody. I do love the Edwards T396-A and will not be getting rid of it any time soon, but in the future if I need another horn I can always count on Shires to build something that will fit me.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:57 am

Quote from: M.R.Tenor on Jun 28, 2016, 07:24AMWould the difference between a TII 7(soldered) and a TI 8(unsoldered) bell be more in sound or feel? I have never seen the 8 bell or a player that used one, how come?

There's two major difference between a TII 7 and a TI 8. The first is the shape fo the flare; TII get wider sooner, in the stem, TI stay narrower longer through the stem and get large through the flare. If you think of the difference between a Conn and a Bach you'll have a rough approximation of the difference.

The type 7 and 8 are a modified two piece construction, where we gradually thin the bells toward the edge of the flare. The 7 is soldered and the 8 un-soldered. In general, type 8 bells can sound a little dull for most players; the type 2 bells work much better for most folks that prefer a bell with an un-soldered beadwire. The type 8 work well for a particular kind of player in a particular kind of situation. For example, we recently did an alto trombone for Colin Williams that is an A8YLW.

QuoteAlso, are there any general tips on how to know which gold component to swap in on an all yellow horn if the player is looking to modify the feel, slotting, or sound? What are the typical results with the difference between trying gold slide tubes versus a gold tuning slide versus some gold in the bell and how do you adapt this choice to the needs of the player if you're thinking they would benefit from some gold brass in the horn?
The first thing I'd like to mention is that I'm not certain that a gold brass component would be the answer to your questions (certainly I couldn't say for sure without hearing you). A change to any of the yellow brass components could yield the same results, i.e. sound, feel, slotting.

Our equipment reacts somewhat differently than other brands do to gold components. Gold brass tuning slides can dull the sound more than in other brands, and generally work well in conjunction with sterling silver leadpipes. There's something about the articulate nature of the leadpipe and the blend of the two tonal colors that work very well. I generally only recommend it without a sterling pipe if a player has a brilliant sound with extra firm articulations and is looking to tame the sound somewhat.

Gold brass hand slides can give extra warmth and buoyancy to the sound without dulling it, but tend to have more rounded articulation qualities. There is also a certain elasticity to the blow; you can push the slot and timbre in different directions without it resisting you too much. Personally, I am very attracted to this sound but have found that most players that have to work in larger ensembles gravitate toward yellow brass or nickel.

Gold brass bells resist getting bright/adding brilliance more than other bells, with lighter weight bells moving toward bright quicker than heavier ones. But when they do move to bright they do so with more of a timbral shift than do yellow bells, which are quite progressive/stable, but remain more of the fundamental overtone than do red bells, which tend to shift dramatically.

All of these things should be taken within the context of the instrument as a whole, i.e. these things can effect the instrument to more or less of a degree depending on the rest of the setup. They can also change different things depending on the rest of the set up. In general, our yellow horns tend to be more colorful than other brands, so many people wind up sticking with that alone.

BUT, there are exceptions. One of the best horns I ever played was a custom order for our German dealer. It was a TB47GLW, Tru-Bore, TGS, and 1GT7 bell. It was so much fun to play, bouncy and vibrant and responsive and lively. That's a lot of gold brass and not a horn that many people would choose over here int he states, but I loved it.

Just goes to show you, it's the whole set up that matters.

In the interest of really helping you, could you let me know your current set-up and what you are hoping to change?

Thanks,
Ben

ttf_M.R.Tenor · Post by **ttf_M.R.Tenor** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:13 pm

It was a friend's setup I played on, the standard model NY with a trubore valve and a 1.5 leadpipe. It played really well, but responded better on the articulations for me with a 7YM bell that his teacher let me try. The only thing is the TI taper didn't sound quite right for this setup in the small room. I noticed the 8 bell description said it had a more diffuse sound, and was just curious as I haven't seen any. Sounds like the TII 7 would be a better choice.

The reason I ask about adding some gold brass is that the horn had a nice sound, but didn't seem to respond to efforts to change timbre at all, even though the trubore felt more "elastic" within the slot as you say, than the standard rotor. On the Getzen horns I've tried, I always preferred the gold bell and rotor over the yellow bell and axial as it's easier to change the sound, and easier to be clear on articulation.

I also felt that the TX tuning slide wasn't a good match for the 7YM, but the TY with the 7YM on the trubore also felt like a mismatch in that it had a bigger feel, but smaller sound.

Do you find that more players that choose a TII taper prefer the TX tuning slide, or is the TY still a viable option with a standard rotor and a TII yellow brass 7 bell?

ttf_SethMatrix · Post by **ttf_SethMatrix** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:26 pm

What are the specifications of the Q series bass? And are the parts assembled in the same factory and way as normal shires parts?

ttf_Mahlerbone · Post by **ttf_Mahlerbone** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:01 pm

Quotebut the TY with the 7YM on the trubore also felt like a mismatch in that it had a bigger feel, but smaller sound.
This has been my exact setup for the past few years, paired with the TW47 slide, except I've had a gold tuning slide. I liked it at first, but recently I found it to be really open and bright and edgy. Seems like lots of players do like this, but it just didn't work for me. The TX-TB47LYC-2YM-rotor I tried yesterday was really nice, and I probably would have liked it even better with a TX gold.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:04 pm

Quote from: M.R.Tenor on Jun 28, 2016, 01:13PMIt was a friend's setup I played on, the standard model NY with a trubore valve and a 1.5 leadpipe. It played really well, but responded better on the articulations for me with a 7YM bell that his teacher let me try. The only thing is the TI taper didn't sound quite right for this setup in the small room. I noticed the 8 bell description said it had a more diffuse sound, and was just curious as I haven't seen any. Sounds like the TII 7 would be a better choice.

The reason I ask about adding some gold brass is that the horn had a nice sound, but didn't seem to respond to efforts to change timbre at all, even though the trubore felt more "elastic" within the slot as you say, than the standard rotor. On the Getzen horns I've tried, I always preferred the gold bell and rotor over the yellow bell and axial as it's easier to change the sound, and easier to be clear on articulation.

I also felt that the TX tuning slide wasn't a good match for the 7YM, but the TY with the 7YM on the trubore also felt like a mismatch in that it had a bigger feel, but smaller sound.

Do you find that more players that choose a TII taper prefer the TX tuning slide, or is the TY still a viable option with a standard rotor and a TII yellow brass 7 bell?

There's a lot going on here, the first of which is that the only similarity between the TII5YVNY and 7YM bells are that they are yellow brass. The taper, construction (one piece vs. modified two piece) and weights (light vs. medium) are all different and could restore some of the things that you are looking for, both size of sound and timbre. I cannot agree with your assessments without more knowledge and a wider variety of parts to mix and match. I stand by my previous reply that you could likely achieve the results you are looking for with all yellow parts and would add that you might be able to get there with a TI taper bell as well. I encourage you to keep and open mind.

I would also warn against making firm conclusions based on only trying a couple of components. As recently noted many times here, the instrument is a system; changing one part may necessitate changing another to bring it to your liking (i.e. you may need to change both the bell and the slide to get the desired result).

I recently thought of an interesting analogy: Consider the instrument as a large telescope. There are many lenses that can be adjusted to focus on a specific part of the sky. These lenses work in conjunction with one another. Sometimes adjusting one will not make a large difference, other times all of the other lenses will need to be adjusted to compensate for previous adjustment. It all depends on what the ultimate goal is. The trombone can work the same way. Leadpipe, handslide, valve, tuning slide, bell. These are our "lenses"

If this is a path you are seriously considering I highly recommend you make an appointment with us at the factory, visit us at a major show or get to a Pro Shop that has a large supply of components. I also highly recommend you work with someone that understands our system and can help fit you.

To your specific tuning slide question, there are people that use the TY with TII bells and people that use the TX with TI bells. It's about focusing the instrument correctly for the player.

I hope this helps.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:08 pm

Quote from: SethMatrix on Jun 28, 2016, 01:26PMWhat are the specifications of the Q series bass? And are the parts assembled in the same factory and way as normal shires parts?

The cat is out of the bag, please stay tuned for a formal announcement.

In general, the Q series instruments are made in Eastman factories in China using Shires machined parts. They are then sent to our factory where we quality check them in the same manner as our custom series instruments. The result is a horn that plays and sounds like a Shires but with a much friendlier price tag. They are also modular and completely interchangeable with Shires custom components.

The Q series bass will be a yellow brass, two piece bell with soldered bead, rotors, and a single .562 bore slide in standard weight yellow brass. I'm very excited for this horn to come to market as I think it plays great and offers exceptional value.

Stay tuned for that official announcement.

ttf_M.R.Tenor · Post by **ttf_M.R.Tenor** » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:24 pm

Thanks, it definitely helps.

My afternoon trying out different components was more for figuring out what I liked better in regards to feel and sound in general, rather than trying to put together a Shires for myself. Your telescope metaphor is fantastic! I'm just trying out all of that I can get my hands on, in order to figure out how to choose an instrument for myself at all, even though it probably won't be a Shires until I've had many more years of development as a player. This thread and your advice throughout has been indispensable in learning how various players choose a setup that works for them and their needs, and as one of the most experienced horn fitters, it's nice to see your approach to this and what you've learned from dealing with hundreds(thousands?) of players, their misconceptions, and their individual characteristics throughout their journey to get an instrument that fits them. It just seems so daunting a task without the ability to try everything.

I think I speak for a lot of us when I say I'm very grateful that you're willing to spend so much time here answering questions.

ttf_SteveCarr · Post by **ttf_SteveCarr** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:03 am

What do you look for when trying out a horn or component? What do you play (melodies, licks, excerpts, scales, etc.) to test?

I curious about everyones thoughts on this. But Im especially interested in what Ben and Gabe have to say about this, since they have helped so many people pick out horns.

ttf_modelerdc · Post by **ttf_modelerdc** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:09 am

Some players test for specific things, such as a high D in tune in first (usually goes with a sharp 1st pos. F) or the most open double trigger low B. I find it's best to take it home, and practice the new instrument on your regular material. It's also important to play the new instrument in an ensemble you normally play in. Doing this will weed out instruments that are really good in some areas, but are not good all around.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:47 pm

Quote from: SteveCarr on Jul 21, 2016, 08:03AMWhat do you look for when trying out a horn or component? What do you play (melodies, licks, excerpts, scales, etc.) to test?

I curious about everyones thoughts on this. But Im especially interested in what Ben and Gabe have to say about this, since they have helped so many people pick out horns.

Here are a few generalities that I look for when I'm listening to someone play. The first two do not require anyone to pick a new horn at all.

I recommend anyone really serious about trying new equipment to be in good, consistent playing shape. Whatever that is for the individual. If one is having trouble relying on their chops, it will be difficult to produce consistent results. (Caveat: I do have some people that are looking to buy and instrument to help them with this goal, which leads me to my next point.)

Have some basic idea of what you'd like a horn to do with you. The tone (bigger, smaller, brighter, darker, etc.), the feel, maybe the pitch. The shape of the articulations. Is it easy to play? How it projects/sounds in an ensemble (which can be different than what you like to hear in the practice room). A trombone isn't going to change what you can/cannot do, but it the right set-up is predisposed to sound a particular way. Knowing this going in will help guide you.

When actually play testing a horn, I ask people to try a few different things. In general, I'll ask someone to play some lip slurs to find the center of the horn. Play in the middle of the notes first, not yet trying to adjust for pitch. Only by putting in an honest input will you find the honest center, pitch, and tone of the instrument (in your hands, at least).

Bring your own instrument to compare it to. Having a "control" group live is better than memory.

Play diverse things. Soft and legato, loud and articulate. Play all ranges. Focus on what is important to you, based on your previous list.

Pick music ahead of time to play, not just excerpts or exercises.

And make some music.

This is the X-factor when I listen to people play test a horn. Yes, one can execute many technical passages, but is there a particular instrument/set-up that inspires them to turn a phrase? Sometimes these are two different instruments.

That's my general take on it. Be in good shape, know what you are looking for, play down the true center of the horn, try different things in different ranges, make some music.

Is it possible to pick up a horn randomly without any of those in place and find a great instrument that one can be happy with for many years to come? Sure! But I generally find people are much happier with the long term results with what I previously mentioned.

ttf_Euphoni · Post by **ttf_Euphoni** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:33 pm

So, while practicing at home I noticed that my Shires TII 5vny tenor bell has recently developed a slight extra ring on Fs and As. Bought the bell new about a year ago.

Any ideas what this is? Also, any fixes, or do I just have to deal with it?

Thanks.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:04 pm

Quote from: Euphoni on Jul 21, 2016, 09:33PMSo, while practicing at home I noticed that my Shires TII 5vny tenor bell has recently developed a slight extra ring on Fs and As. Bought the bell new about a year ago.

Any ideas what this is? Also, any fixes, or do I just have to deal with it?

Thanks.

I had this going on on my instrument. Before blaming the fit or finish on the instrument, make sure the all the modular connections are locked properly. Make sure the slide lock is not loose. Make sure the valve cap is not loose. Make sure the valve screws are not loose and properly lubricate the valve, ball joints, and saddle. Make sure the saddle screw is tight. Take off all the tuning slides and clean them and clean the neckpipe and bell. Reapply new tuning slide grease, especially Hetmans. For me, it was the tuning slides that were ringing. If you do all the stuff above, I have a hunch the extra ringing will go away.

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:51 am

Just picked up a Mike Davis Plus last week. All I have to say is that I am impressed yet again. Thank you guys for what you do...

New dual bore still has an occasional buzz but with upcoming auditions I can't take time away from it to have it looked at. Still, it plays beautifully...thanks again!

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:03 pm

Do the small bore (.485/.500/.508) slides use a different tenon than the larger slides?

Would a small bore slide mount on a neckpipe section from a large bore horn?

Shires-specific questions, in case that's not obvious.

Thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:17 am

Quote from: SilverBone on Jul 28, 2016, 07:03PMDo the small bore (.485/.500/.508) slides use a different tenon than the larger slides?

Would a small bore slide mount on a neckpipe section from a large bore horn?

Shires-specific questions, in case that's not obvious.

Thanks.

Small bore trombones (.485-.508) have their own bell receiver. Medium to bass trombones (.525-.578) have the same slide receiver as well.

I would not recommend using a small bore slide with a large bore neckpipe. You wind up with some very interesting pitch tendencies.

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:27 am

I noticed that the mouthpiece shank goes in about an eighth of an inch further on my 1.5 leadpipe than it does on my 2 leadpipe. That seems odd to me. Ideally, how far should the shank extend into the leadpipe?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:39 am

Quote from: cigmar on Aug 01, 2016, 06:27AMI noticed that the mouthpiece shank goes in about an eighth of an inch further on my 1.5 leadpipe than it does on my 2 leadpipe. That seems odd to me. Ideally, how far should the shank extend into the leadpipe?

Our current ideal range for large shank mouthpieces is 1"-1 1/16".

It is possible that if you use one leadpipe more than the other that it can stretch over time, allowing it to fit deeper than on the other. We see that often.

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:56 am

Quote from: griffinben on Aug 01, 2016, 06:39AMOur current ideal range for large shank mouthpieces is 1"-1 1/16".

It is possible that if you use one leadpipe more than the other that it can stretch over time, allowing it to fit deeper than on the other. We see that often.

Thanks Ben. What, if any, adverse effects might be realized by not having the shank insert within the ideal range?