Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:05 am

Ben,

Does shires still offer the rest bar? I notice a lot of bass players with the bar seems to be almost standard. I tried the ax handle on my greenhoe but for me anything on the bell brace changes feel and sound.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:44 am

Quote from: trmbtrmb on Apr 15, 2016, 07:05AMBen,

Does shires still offer the rest bar? I notice a lot of bass players with the bar seems to be almost standard. I tried the ax handle on my greenhoe but for me anything on the bell brace changes feel and sound.

Not only do they still have it, they've upgraded the Gb lever assembly with a hole for the brace so that on the basses, you don't even have to have any soldering done! I'm a big fan of the Shires brace.

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:42 am

Quote from: sfboner on Apr 15, 2016, 10:44AMNot only do they still have it, they've upgraded the Gb lever assembly with a hole for the brace so that on the basses, you don't even have to have any soldering done! I'm a big fan of the Shires brace.
How much would it cost to retrofit the new style of Gb assembly to a older Shires bass?

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:35 pm

Could Shires do a .525 with a C attachment? (See discussion re: Yamaha 350C).

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:52 am

Quote from: mr.deacon on Apr 15, 2016, 11:42AMHow much would it cost to retrofit the new style of Gb assembly to a older Shires bass?

Because of the complexity involved, we would recommend simply getting one of our rest bars and having it installed. We had been doing this for years prior before switching over to the new style. I have this old style on my personal bass and it works great.

Send me an email for pricing info ([url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]).

Thanks,
Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:12 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 16, 2016, 02:35PMCould Shires do a .525 with a C attachment? (See discussion re: Yamaha 350C).

The 350C is pitched in C with a Bb valve. Essentially, the Bb valve is engaged and when the lever is pressed is puts the trombone in C again. We could do something like this, but the likelihood is small. We haven't had the world beating down our door for something like this yet.

Ben

ttf_Evan Krebs · Post by **ttf_Evan Krebs** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:33 am

Have you guys ever looked into the possibility (if it's feasible), of venting axial flow valves?

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:03 pm

I have a 1G8 bell on my .525 that Gabe set me up with back in 2005.

I'm thinking of something similar in an 8.5" size for my .547. What would you recommend?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:48 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 25, 2016, 10:03PMI have a 1G8 bell on my .525 that Gabe set me up with back in 2005.

I'm thinking of something similar in an 8.5" size for my .547. What would you recommend?

The most similar would be a 1G. If you wanted a little more flexibility I would recommend a 1GM.

Ben

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:20 am

Quote from: griffinben on Apr 26, 2016, 05:48AMThe most similar would be a 1G. If you wanted a little more flexibility I would recommend a 1GM.

Ben

Yes, but just to confuse things a little

If you want a little more point to the articulation, you might try a 1GT7, and if you want more brilliance overall, you might try a 7GM or 7GLW.

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:49 pm

Quick question, what can be vibrating in a valve section on certain harmonics?

I've checked:
linkages
Screws
Rotor cap
Bell to valve nuts
Trigger screws / spring
There are no visible weaknesses in the solder joints

Scratching my head here...it's only happening on A at any volume and low F (1st position trigger) at FF. It is most definitely in the valve section because that's the only part of the horn that's changed and it didn't do it before.

Next step is to take valve apart and look for loose solder, but I have shows all this week and next, jury next week...really want to find it before then.

ttf_trombonehawaii · Post by **ttf_trombonehawaii** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:27 am

Quote from: ah64pilot on Apr 26, 2016, 09:49PMQuick question, what can be vibrating in a valve section on certain harmonics?

I've checked:
linkages
Screws
Rotor cap
Bell to valve nuts
Trigger screws / spring
There are no visible weaknesses in the solder joints

Scratching my head here...it's only happening on A at any volume and low F (1st position trigger) at FF. It is most definitely in the valve section because that's the only part of the horn that's changed and it didn't do it before.

Next step is to take valve apart and look for loose solder, but I have shows all this week and next, jury next week...really want to find it before then.

I actually the EXACT same issue with my Shires Trubore bass the past few days and it was quite distracting as I was preparing for my recital today. What I did to help reduce the "ring" on A was apply slightly more tuning slide grease to ALL of the threaded components (i.e. bell mounts, valve caps, slide lock, etc.). Also did a full oiling of the valves (under the valve cap, thicker oil for the linkages), and tightened all the screws (Friday I noticed my Gb lever screw was coming undone, still had the ring on A).

What helped the most was the extra tuning slide grease that I applied yesterday to all of the threaded components. Absolutely no ring or vibrations. I use Hetman #7 tuning slide gel.

Hope this works.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:41 am

I've got a mystery vibration on my K&H alto sometimes.

I don't think anyone's mentioned freshly lubricating the tuning slide and valve slide(s). That's a frequent culprit.

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:19 am

Definitely. My YBL-612 RII has two crooks for the second valve, Eb and D. The D valve is fine, but if I don't keep enough tuning grease on the Eb crook it will resonate like heck. Quite annoying. But as long as it's got a nice level of grease, it's fine.

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:58 pm

Thanks guys! I did put Hetman slide gel on all the threaded components (first suspicion) but it didn't help. However, I didn't try putting more on the tuning slides. I'll try that tonight and report back.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:34 am

Quote from: sfboner on Apr 27, 2016, 09:41AMI've got a mystery vibration on my K&H alto sometimes.

I don't think anyone's mentioned freshly lubricating the tuning slide and valve slide(s). That's a frequent culprit.

THIS!

The tuning slide legs are quite long and if not probably lubricated (with a thick slide gel) they will vibrate inside the inner tubes.

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:43 am

Sometimes it can be the slide lock that when not in use (ie when you are playing) hasn't been rotated far enough to tighten it and it creates a vibration. Similar with the screw collar on the slide receiver.......

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:48 am

The last time I had this problem I thought it was a loose connection in the F wrap, but it turned out to be a press-fit leadpipe. Soldered it in, and problem disappeared.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:02 pm

I'm pretty impressed with the dual bore valve on my .525.

Does it work on a .547 tenor or on a bass?

ttf_schiffko · Post by **ttf_schiffko** » Sun May 01, 2016 12:35 am

Hello Benn:

i have another tuning slide question...
i have seen
X
B
S
tuning slides for .547" large bore tenor

what is there difference between them?
the B is the old one...now unmarked?
S???

thanks a lot
tom

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Sun May 01, 2016 8:43 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 30, 2016, 05:02PMI'm pretty impressed with the dual bore valve on my .525.

Does it work on a .547 tenor or on a bass?
At ATW I played the regular rotor and the dual bore back to back on a 525 slide. My feeling was that the dual bore felt good and the regular rotor was slightly stuffy. Might have had to do with the weight, with dual bore being (or at least looking) smaller and lighter.

ttf_pedrombon · Post by **ttf_pedrombon** » Sun May 01, 2016 12:15 pm

Quote from: schiffko on May 01, 2016, 12:35AMHello Benn:

i have another tuning slide question...
i have seen
X
B
S
tuning slides for .547" large bore tenor

what is there difference between them?
the B is the old one...now unmarked?
S???

thanks a lot
tom

S= Seamed

ttf_TromboneConcerto · Sun May 01, 2016 12:23 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 30, 2016, 05:02PMI'm pretty impressed with the dual bore valve on my .525.

Does it work on a .547 tenor or on a bass?

A friend of mine has a .547 with a dual bore valve, so that answers half of your question.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon May 02, 2016 6:23 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 30, 2016, 05:02PMI'm pretty impressed with the dual bore valve on my .525.

Does it work on a .547 tenor or on a bass?

The Dual bore valve is currently only for Tenor trombone and works very well on both .525 and .547. There is no dual bore valve for bass...yet.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon May 02, 2016 6:27 am

Quote from: hyperbolica on May 01, 2016, 08:43AMAt ATW I played the regular rotor and the dual bore back to back on a 525 slide. My feeling was that the dual bore felt good and the regular rotor was slightly stuffy. Might have had to do with the weight, with rheinsound dual bore being (or at least looking) smaller and lighter.

I think it's more about what creates the right balance for the player. There are some that have observed the exact opposite of what you did (that the dual bore is stuffy and the standard rotor is more open). This feeling can also flip depending on how the rest of the instrument is set up...and balances with the player. We make both kinds of rotary valves to better fit player/s wants and needs.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon May 02, 2016 6:54 am

Quote from: schiffko on May 01, 2016, 12:35AMHello Benn:

i have another tuning slide question...
i have seen
X
B
S
tuning slides for .547" large bore tenor

what is there difference between them?
the B is the old one...now unmarked?
S???

thanks a lot
tom

No marking: TY (or TG) - standard tuning slide taper, drawn tubing.
X: TX (or TGX if gold brass)- "X" taper, drawn tubing.
S: TYS (or TGS)- standard tubing, seamed brass (i.e. a flat sheet of brass rolled over and brazed into a tube)
B: Old style marking for TY (or TG)

I hope that helps.

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Mon May 02, 2016 8:22 am

Quote from: griffinben on May 02, 2016, 06:54AMNo marking: TY (or TG) - standard tuning slide taper, drawn tubing.
X: TX (or TGX if gold brass)- "X" taper, drawn tubing.
S: TYS (or TGS)- standard tubing, seamed brass (i.e. a flat sheet of brass rolled over and brazed into a tube)
B: Old style marking for TY (or TG)

I hope that helps.

Is there a seamed X taper - maybe a TXS or TGXS?.....

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon May 02, 2016 9:43 am

Quote from: Duffle on May 02, 2016, 08:22AMIs there a seamed X taper - maybe a TXS or TGXS?.....

There have been a couple of prototypes, marked "XS". Though all things being equal, generally one of the other options works well/better and so XS tuning slides are custom order only.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Mon May 02, 2016 11:57 am

Out of curiosity, could you remind me what was the other style of tenor tuning slide that was discontinued in favor of the B slide?

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Tue May 03, 2016 12:12 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Apr 28, 2016, 05:34AMTHIS!

The tuning slide legs are quite long and if not probably lubricated (with a thick slide gel) they will vibrate inside the inner tubes.

I have now exhausted the list of potential culprits...while the vibration is less prevalent it is still there. I'm using Hetman 7 on tuning slide...maybe I need more still? I've got a pretty thick coat on there now...anything else I can try?

Could it be the valve itself vibrating in the cylinder? I'm using Hetman light rotor for that, should I try the standard weight rotor oil?

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Tue May 03, 2016 2:49 pm

Quote from: sfboner on May 02, 2016, 11:57AMOut of curiosity, could you remind me what was the other style of tenor tuning slide that was discontinued in favor of the B slide?

There wasn't really anything discontinued. At the beginning there were a few different prototypes for the large tenor main tuning slide, and the one labeled B was the clear winner.

The B and C bass tuning slides are labeled that way for the same reason, but both were viable options.

The B was dropped from the tenor tuning slides when the manufacturing process was changed to a more consistent method. The taper is the same as the B slide, but the shape of the bend is more consistent from one example to another, and slightly different from most of the old B slides.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Tue May 03, 2016 2:54 pm

Quote from: sfboner on May 02, 2016, 11:57AMOut of curiosity, could you remind me what was the other style of tenor tuning slide that was discontinued in favor of the B slide?

There wasn't really anything discontinued. At the beginning there were a few different prototypes for the large tenor main tuning slide, and the one labeled B was the clear winner.

The B and C bass tuning slides are labeled that way for the same reason, but both were viable options.

The B was dropped from the tenor tuning slides when the manufacturing process was changed to a more consistent method. The taper is the same as the B slide, but the shape of the bend is more consistent from one example to another, and slightly different from most of the old B slides.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue May 03, 2016 3:12 pm

Quote from: ah64pilot on May 03, 2016, 12:12PMI have now exhausted the list of potential culprits...while the vibration is less prevalent it is still there. I'm using Hetman 7 on tuning slide...maybe I need more still? I've got a pretty thick coat on there now...anything else I can try?

Could it be the valve itself vibrating in the cylinder? I'm using Hetman light rotor for that, should I try the standard weight rotor oil?

I highly doubt it's the valve. If it were that loose you'd be experiencing other issues with it's operation.

It may be that the tuning slide grease is not yet fully coating it. That the problem has lessened tells me we are on the right track. Check the main tuning slide too. Also, you may wish to put a little grease on the threaded lock nut receivers on the bell.

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Tue May 03, 2016 4:58 pm

Here is a repair techs thought. Random buzzes can also be from an in place broken or partially broken solder joint. Such as a brace flange or edge brace. I have run into a valve buzzing that had so much spindle bearing wear (and no oil on said bearing) that it was buzzing when playing, but even with worn valves this is uncommon.

Good luck!

Benn

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Tue May 03, 2016 5:17 pm

You could bring it in our repair shop Stephen. That is kinda what we do :p

ttf_Windexwaker · Post by **ttf_Windexwaker** » Wed May 04, 2016 12:12 pm

Hello Ben,

any chance of a hagmann valve option in the future?

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Thu May 05, 2016 1:43 am

Horn Guys has a Shires bass they list as a "Q series." What is that? The discontinued series of trombones with the most popular components at a reduced price?

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu May 05, 2016 3:40 am

Quote from: SilverBone on May 05, 2016, 01:43AMHorn Guys has a Shires bass they list as a "Q series." What is that? The discontinued series of trombones with the most popular components at a reduced price?

Is that the same thing as the non-modular shires, which came stock as a few examples of the most common setups?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu May 05, 2016 4:13 am

Quote from: Windexwaker on May 04, 2016, 12:12PMHello Ben,

any chance of a hagmann valve option in the future?

Highly unlikely. Part of what makes us unique is that we build all of our own valves in shop, and that is not an option with Hagmann valves. I do understand Rene Hagmann makes a kit that works with our bells and tuning slides if a Hagmann valve is what you need. However the vast majority of our customers find something that works more than adequately with our standard offerings (which are four different valve types for tenor and three for basses!).

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu May 05, 2016 4:23 am

Quote from: SilverBone on May 05, 2016, 01:43AMHorn Guys has a Shires bass they list as a "Q series." What is that? The discontinued series of trombones with the most popular components at a reduced price?

This is a new series of trombones that we are coming out with this summer/fall. I will have more details later on when it's officially launched. These will be brand new trombones, not old components at discounted prices.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Thu May 05, 2016 3:11 pm

Quote from: griffinben on May 05, 2016, 04:23AMThis is a new series of trombones that we are coming out with this summer/fall. I will have more details later on when it's officially launched. These will be brand new trombones, not old components at discounted prices.

Looks like HornGuys let the cat (bone?) out of the bag. Exciting news, and looking forward to more details!

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Sun May 08, 2016 1:34 am

Ben,

Could you discuss the effect different leadpipe sizes, lengths, and materials generally have on the sound and playing characteristics.

Thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon May 09, 2016 6:47 am

Quote from: cigmar on May 08, 2016, 01:34AMBen,

Could you discuss the effect different leadpipe sizes, lengths, and materials generally have on the sound and playing characteristics.

Thanks.

In very general terms, the shorter a leadpipe, more open it feels and the longer it is the more focused.

The more specifics of this are highly personal. More open can also translate as unstable or unfocused. More focused can translate as tight or stiff. In general, most of our customers opt for our standard length leadpipe (I'd guess about 75%-80% if I had to assign a number) and the rest select a long length. Very few people select a short length (though our "VE" leadpipes are shorter than our standard length pipes). In general, I recommend or try long leadpipes for people looking for either a little more density or a little more stability.

As for materials, yellow brass is the norm, with an excellent balance of warmth and clarity. Gold brass can be denser and warmer sounding, with some loss of clarity and brilliance. Nickel is more brilliant and crisp sounding, with clean, clear articulations but less warmth tot he sound. Sterling silver adds brilliance without necessarily sacrificing warmth.

In practice yellow brass well for the vast majority of our customers (I would say 90%-95%). It just plain works with our instruments.

Gold brass tends to be alluring for people, at least initially, but most switch away from it because it doesn't center as easily and it's work to get a shimmer on the sound. It seems to work best with people that have naturally brilliant sounds and strong embouchures that they want to mellow out the sound and feel a little bit.

Nickel is more popular than gold brass for it's crisp nature. People generally pair this with gold brass somewhere else on the horn, either the bell or tuning slide, though there are some that use it with all yellow brass instruments. Again, most people like the crisp nature but for many it can feel stiff, unyielding to subtle timbral and pitch changes with the buzz. People that gravitate toward nickel generally have strong, broad sounds that they want to add some definition to and are flexible enough in the chop to allow for the more firm slotting nature of the nickel.

Sterling is more of a color change. It adds some brilliance without sacrificing too many lows in the sound. It also adds a curious density to the overtones series in specific places. The folks I've seen that are most successful with sterling nearly always use a yellow bell with gold brass tuning slide or vice versa (more often the former than the latter). We only make sterling pipes for large bore and bass trombones at this time (with no plans to change it in the foreseeable future).

I hope that helps.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon May 09, 2016 7:00 am

Quote from: griffinben on May 09, 2016, 06:47AMIn very general terms, the shorter a leadpipe, more open it feels and the longer it is the more focused.

The more specifics of this are highly personal. More open can also translate as unstable or unfocused. More focused can translate as tight or stiff. In general, most of our customers opt for our standard length leadpipe (I'd guess about 75%-80% if I had to assign a number) and the rest select a long length. Very few people select a short length (though our "VE" leadpipes are shorter than our standard length pipes). In general, I recommend or try long leadpipes for people looking for either a little more density or a little more stability.

As for materials, yellow brass is the norm, with an excellent balance of warmth and clarity. Gold brass can be denser and warmer sounding, with some loss of clarity and brilliance. Nickel is more brilliant and crisp sounding, with clean, clear articulations but less warmth tot he sound. Sterling silver adds brilliance without necessarily sacrificing warmth.

In practice yellow brass well for the vast majority of our customers (I would say 90%-95%). It just plain works with our instruments.

Gold brass tends to be alluring for people, at least initially, but most switch away from it because it doesn't center as easily and it's work to get a shimmer on the sound. It seems to work best with people that have naturally brilliant sounds and strong embouchures that they want to mellow out the sound and feel a little bit.

Nickel is more popular than gold brass for it's crisp nature. People generally pair this with gold brass somewhere else on the horn, either the bell or tuning slide, though there are some that use it with all yellow brass instruments. Again, most people like the crisp nature but for many it can feel stiff, unyielding to subtle timbral and pitch changes with the buzz. People that gravitate toward nickel generally have strong, broad sounds that they want to add some definition to and are flexible enough in the chop to allow for the more firm slotting nature of the nickel.

Sterling is more of a color change. It adds some brilliance without sacrificing too many lows in the sound. It also adds a curious density to the overtones series in specific places. The folks I've seen that are most successful with sterling nearly always use a yellow bell with gold brass tuning slide or vice versa (more often the former than the latter). We only make sterling pipes for large bore and bass trombones at this time (with no plans to change it in the foreseeable future).

I hope that helps.

So well put. You should write a book!

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Tue May 10, 2016 9:22 pm

Quote from: HouBassTrombone on May 03, 2016, 05:17PMYou could bring it in our repair shop Stephen. That is kinda what we do :p

I might do that, but it is under warranty (I think)...just got it 6 weeks ago, brand new. I'll try to make sure I've covered the tuning slides with grease really well before I begin chasing solder joints.

I will probably come to you guys anyway, the whole horn needs a clean after a busy year of playing and my hot baths only go so far.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Tue May 10, 2016 11:58 pm

If I had just bought it brand new and had this problem, I would definitely take it in. The dealer and/or Shires should help you solve the problem, whether it's properly lubricating a part (I think established in your case as not the problem) to a part needing a tweak or replacement. Things go wrong every now and then with even the best manufacturers.

ttf_Kmanbassjam · Post by **ttf_Kmanbassjam** » Wed May 18, 2016 6:14 am

Hay Ben,

Are lighter valve caps for trubore valves a thing? I'd be keen to give that a go!

Cheers man keep up the good work

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed May 18, 2016 11:03 am

Quote from: Kmanbassjam on May 18, 2016, 06:14AMHay Ben,

Are lighter valve caps for trubore valves a thing? I'd be keen to give that a go!

Cheers man keep up the good work

At this time we only make the caps in one weight. We've often talked about caps in other weights but we've had to focus on other priorities at this time. If this changes we'll be sure to announce it.

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Wed May 18, 2016 5:10 pm

What is the SSY bell?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu May 19, 2016 6:47 am

Quote from: Duffle on May 18, 2016, 05:10PMWhat is the SSY bell?

It's the Standard Series bell in Yellow brass. It's a two piece yellow brass bell with a soldered bead. Further details are not forthcoming abut specs. I can say that it is very stable and very articulate. It is a professional model bell with no difference in the approach that we take for any of our other models.

I hope that helps.