Historic teaching

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WPADAMS1
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Historic teaching

Post by WPADAMS1 »

Can anyone explain how the slide positions were taught before the trombone was regarded as having 7 chromatic slide positions? I read vaguely that in the time of Speer and Praetorius, (when the tenor trombone was regarded as being "in A" with 1st position sounding A at the old Cornett-Thon tuning about a semitone higher than modern pitch) the trombone was regarded as having 4 diatonic positions. But I don't know what this meant in practice, or how (or if) it meshed with the modal thinking of that era. I have not the stamina or smarts to pursue the primary sources at this time. Are there any good explanations for all this?
marccromme
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Re: Historic teaching

Post by marccromme »

Modal thinking is a modern term, compared to Praetorius. Chromatics did exist in very special melodic circumstances, but rare. Harmonic development was not the same as say Vienna classic period, but melodic development in all voices was very important. Mean tone temprament on an organ allowed only for a couple of harmonic progressions. Hence the focus on diatonic capabilities. Makes much sense to me...
Kbiggs
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Re: Historic teaching

Post by Kbiggs »

There are several TC members who can help here, including Maximillien Brisson.

FWIW, I have found a couple of articles that shed light on the subject:

Keith McGowan's article The world of the early sackbut player: flat or round? (Early Music, August 1994, pp. 441-466). This might be hard to find, but google scholar might find it.

Here is a link to another work by Bodie Pfost:
https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/re ... 9e3c427962
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Kenneth Biggs
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Historic teaching

Post by LeTromboniste »

marccromme wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:49 pm Modal thinking is a modern term, compared to Praetorius. Chromatics did exist in very special melodic circumstances, but rare. Harmonic development was not the same as say Vienna classic period, but melodic development in all voices was very important. Mean tone temprament on an organ allowed only for a couple of harmonic progressions. Hence the focus on diatonic capabilities. Makes much sense to me...
Mmh. Chromatics were very present actually, and in a broader sense accidental are absolutely everywhere. In fact they had more notes per octave than we do now (for example I just played a piece à few days ago that used 14 or 15 pitch classes). Also, meantone tuning doesn't only allow for few harmonic progressions. Keyboards in meantone can't modulate to many keys, that's true, but the music of the time didn't need that since they used fewer keys but many more modes than later tonal music. Keyboard instrument with split keys for more than 12 notes per octave (allowing for most if not all the chords needed in the musical language of the time) were quite common.



To the OP: one thing to keep in mind is they used meantone tuning, where enharmonics are not equivalent (they are in fact almost a quarter tone apart). Without going deep into the details, meantone tuning has rather narrow fifths to allow for better major thirds. If you imagine a circle of fifths, the further you go towards the flats, the higher the notes compared to equal temperament and the further towards the sharps, the lower. This leads to there being two sizes of semitone. The chromatic semitone (between two notes of the same name, like G and G#) is very small, while the diatonic semitone (e.g. G# to A) is very large. Also, because none of the notes but A have the same frequency as in equal temperament, the relations between the positions are not the same. Therefore the 4 basic positions do not correspond exactly to modern positions.

But 1 is 1, 2 is quite close to modern 3, 3 is a quite high modern 5, and 4 is a slightly low modern 6. In the bottom octave and a half, that gives you, on a tenor in A:
4-3-2-1-4-3-2-1-3-2-1
E-F-G-A-B-c-d-e-f-g-a
Or, a diatonic natural scale! Very convenient in a musical system where the "real" notes are the natural notes plus Bb, and all other accidental are, conceptually speaking, "fictive" notes.

And so you have four basic diatonic position, but they were less fixed than the modern 7. Essentially these positions tolerate relatively large adjustments in pitch, of +/- one chromatic semitone. For example, Praetorius gives low B and E in position 4 (they are in a slightly low modern 6), and then says Bb is in the same position but even somewhat further (it is in modern high 7). Similarly, the sources show the natural notes scale as having middle C in first position, while actually C# is in 1, and C is lowered, in high modern 2. If you drew a detailed position chart using the 4 position system, you'd get two to three notes per "position". That is to say, any note that has the same note name will be in the same "position". Or if you wanted to map positions more accurately with one position per note, you'd need not 4 or 7, but actually 11 positions.

It made sense in the modal thinking of the time, especially considering the tuning system. The natural notes each have a position, and all chromatics are just raising or lowering these a little bit depending on if it's a flat or sharp. So the position for Eb is taken from 1st position E, and is thus a lowered first position (modern high 2), but the position for D# is reached from D, and is thus in a raised 2nd (modern low 2). That gives you very small semitones between E and Eb or D and D#, but very large semitones between D and Eb or E and D#.
Maximilien Brisson
www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
WPADAMS1
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Re: Historic teaching

Post by WPADAMS1 »

Thanks to all, especially Maximilien, for the articles and the detailed information.
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