Innovations in Trombones... (and other brass)

Bloo · Post by **Bloo** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:16 pm

The past half-century hasn't been terribly kind to the brass community. From good makers and companies dying out or getting bought, to the massive decline in popularity of live horn music. However, as a result, there's seemingly been more and more experimenting and innovating in brass instruments. Thayer valves, whatever Getzen is doing, and new funky mouthpiece materials and angles.

But, looking back at it, most of those things were already present before the turn of the century. So, my question is: what's new? What's the current cutting edge of brass tech? What are some of your favorite innovations / experiments since the 2000s?

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:22 pm

The carbon fiber trumpets and trombones (not just trombone slides) are the first thing I can think of. Saturn water key might qualify too, don't know how long that one's been around though.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:31 pm

There have been some feeble aftermarket attempts to correct some glaring ergonomic issues with the trombone (grip, weight distribution, range of motion), but nothing really solid. Carbon fiber is the closest thing to an ergonomic breakthrough since the counterweight was invented. As long as a trombone has a slide that extends forward, it will have a section that extends behind you, so will need to be asymmetrical, and off to one side. A vertical slide would be interesting, and might remove the 7 position limitation.

ngrinder · Post by **ngrinder** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:19 pm

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:39 pm

Trombone design hit its peak once the horn became modular.

JBone · Post by **JBone** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:43 pm

SE Shires 7 series bells. Manage to get such a broad and pleasing tone and stable dynamic range from a bell that outperforms its weight class without significantly impacting how quickly the instrument responds.

I believe I've heard them described as "Taking all of the good aspects of one and two piece bells with none of the downsides".

They were introduced some time after 2005 or so, though I couldn't narrow it down much more than that.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:14 pm

The harmonic brace is an example of a real innovation, and not just a variation on a theme like valves are. Being able to "fix" an instrument to whatever space I'm playing in is just ... freeing. It's like freedom. The only thing that I can think of that is similar are the various methods of dampening the bell around the throat or bell flare.

These things all give you multiple instruments in one, without needing heavy or awkward parts to switch out.

Most of the other innovation is happening or had happened is in mouthpieces. The concepts that Doug Elliott, Greg Black, and Christan Griego have been pushing are something that we didn't have before, and these ideas made real have certainly made my job a lot easier.

The Griego V3, for example, is something that just wouldn't have existed before. Its got an S shaped cup that plays so much more compactly than the small bass rim it's mated to, a backbore that is precisely contoured to mitigate changes in tuning between octaves, a beveled shank exit that means there is no "step" between the backbore and the leadpipe, the rim is a design that steals a bit from Lindberg's mouthpiece ... What I'm saying is that there are very helpful tools out there in mouthpiece world that just didn't exist before, and everything these days scales perfectly -- you don't have to settle on a mouthpiece that feels terrible because it is the only stock piece that works OK on everything. Now you can find what feels great on your face, and dial in what you need off of that. Doug Elliott has got this concept down to a science, and anything I play on small bore trombones is on his gear. To me, this idea has more impact on playing than any bell material or harmonic brace or leadpipe ever will. Thanks Doug! Thanks Christan!

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:53 pm

ngrinder wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:19 pm

Is there a TV program in the Netherlands named Stupid Trombone Tricks?

Fratres just doesn't work on trombone. It barely works as music (for me) on violin.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:41 pm

What about the Wedge mouthpieces? While oval mps have existed before, his can be argued to be a revolutionary take on it.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:40 pm

There really isn't much we could exactly call "new". Laser welding, I suppose. The earliest trombones were modular - not soldered together but held together by hinges and clasps. So even that isn't really a new idea.

CharlieB · Post by **CharlieB** » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:03 pm

Fifty years?
By 1970, we already had some pretty fine trombones.
The big improvement has been in technology. Now we have CAD programming and CNC machines that can produce instruments and mouthpieces with an an accuracy and repeatability that augments the skills of in the pre-1970's craftsmen who made everything manually.
We have a much more diverse assortment of mouthpieces to choose from, and they too are also CNC accurate.
Lets not forget the widespread introduction of interchangeable leadpipes, and their countless variations.
And now we have an Internet that didn't exist in 1970, so that trombonists can communicate about all of these things and more that we discuss here.

LeoInFL · Post by **LeoInFL** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:21 am

I've had some ideas running through my head for a while now:
1. Modular slide tenons so you can switch/experiment with different manufacturer's slides with little hassle. Probably with some kind of set screw.

2. Inner slide bore sleeves so you can decrease the bore of your horn easily. I've seen one alto manufacturer who offers a full length leadpipe to narrow the top inner tube. Tenors and Basses could get the same kind of sleeve insert, but probably in a much lighter material than brass. The problem is with something that long and thin it would also be quite fragile. Imagine having a single bore 0.580" slide that can transform into any smaller size (single or dual bore) that you wanted with the right type of sleeve.

3. At some point I could see a higher-end trombone made primarily of plastic, with closer tolerances, better resonance, better projection.

4. I'm surprised we haven't seen laser-printed valves yet. Very precise manufacturing and extremely light weight. They would be awesome on a double valve bass.

LeoInFL · Post by **LeoInFL** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:32 am

LeoInFL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:21 am 2. Inner slide bore sleeves so you can decrease the bore of your horn easily. I've seen one alto manufacturer who offers a full length leadpipe to narrow the top inner tube. Tenors and Basses could get the same kind of sleeve insert, but probably in a much lighter material than brass. The problem is with something that long and thin it would also be quite fragile. Imagine having a single bore 0.580" slide that can transform into any smaller size (single or dual bore) that you wanted with the right type of sleeve.

Nevermind.... if you had your 0.580" bore slide with, say, 0.525/0.547" inserts; as soon as you extend the outer slide you would be blowing through the outer slide of a 0.580" bore horn! Huge difference in air requirements. I'll keep thinking on this one.

JBone · Post by **JBone** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:47 am

Modular slide crooks would be an interesting idea, given the difference in the way that single and dual-radius crooks play, and the difference between bass and tenor crook slides. Because the crook itself doesn't support the inners, you might be able to make a pretty sturdy crook (probably with some manner of bracing) so as to minimize tolerances.

Downside is that the handslide itself might be forced to be a little bit shorter in order to swap between dual and single radius crooks of the same width without the horn going excessively flat. You can compensate with that on the tuning slide, sure, but you still might not have a very satisfying T6 for low C.

Also, due to the connection hardware and the additional bracing, it would probably wind up being a fairly heavy slide.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:48 am

I thought 3D printing was nowhere near the resolution that CNC can make as far as valves go, especially in metal.

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:08 am

Jerome Wiss actually uses computer design and 3D printing for prototyping his instruments. While not a trombone, his 6/20 trumpet departs from all previous trumpets by eliminating one of the three ports in each valve and doesn't require manipulation of the third valve slide to get the typical C# and D in tune.

On the trombone side, his mouthpiece design is in the latest Courtios Creation Paris trombone

https://www.a-courtois.com/en/instrumen ... ion-paris/

Check this out!

http://jeromewiss.com/en/fabrication-en ... mpet-6-20/

Pre59 · Post by **Pre59** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:31 am

Brass lead pipes with internal silver plating to stop tarnishing.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:56 am

walldaja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:08 am Jerome Wiss actually uses computer design and 3D printing for prototyping his instruments. While not a trombone, his 6/20 trumpet departs from all previous trumpets by eliminating one of the three ports in each valve and doesn't require manipulation of the third valve slide to get the typical C# and D in tune.

Not sure how he's accomplishing that last part. It's not a compensating system, and lowering the pitch a half step from D (1-3) to C#/Db (1-2-3) still requires more tubing than going from G (open) to F#/Gb (2).

Looking at the exterior of the valve block, I'm pretty sure I know what the piston itself looks like (one u-shaped passage and one that's pretty much straight through) - but I'd still like to see some pics.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:55 pm

If that Wiss thing actually does what it says it does, I'd love to a) try it and b) see what he could do with 4 valves.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:14 pm

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:56 am
walldaja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:08 am Jerome Wiss actually uses computer design and 3D printing for prototyping his instruments. While not a trombone, his 6/20 trumpet departs from all previous trumpets by eliminating one of the three ports in each valve and doesn't require manipulation of the third valve slide to get the typical C# and D in tune.
Not sure how he's accomplishing that last part. It's not a compensating system, and lowering the pitch a half step from D (1-3) to C#/Db (1-2-3) still requires more tubing than going from G (open) to F#/Gb (2).

Looking at the exterior of the valve block, I'm pretty sure I know what the piston itself looks like (one u-shaped passage and one that's pretty much straight through) - but I'd still like to see some pics.

The website has pictures of the pistons if you click on "Wiss pistons system".

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:42 pm

Pre59 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:31 am Brass lead pipes with internal silver plating to stop tarnishing.

Sorry to hate on your idea but Silver plate tarnishes...

Mikebmiller · Post by **Mikebmiller** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:22 pm

I’m still waiting the device that holds all your mutes at the ready and inserts the proper on at the touch of a button. Perfect for musicals.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:31 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:42 pm
Pre59 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:31 am Brass lead pipes with internal silver plating to stop tarnishing.
Sorry to hate on your idea but Silver plate tarnishes...

Nooooooooooooo!!!!!!!.........

Post by **Matt K** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:58 pm

But it does corrode less, right?

Pre59 · Post by **Pre59** » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:03 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:42 pm
Pre59 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:31 am Brass lead pipes with internal silver plating to stop tarnishing.
Sorry to hate on your idea but Silver plate tarnishes...

Tarnish may be the wrong word. I mean the crud that I get on the inside of my brass lead pipes that I don't get on the sterling silver one, no matter how clean I keep them.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:07 am

Yeah brass corrodes and silver just changes color.

Pre59 · Post by **Pre59** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:59 am

I suppose the question then becomes, does the gradual corrosion in a brass lead pipe affect the performance?
And, if so, would a silver lining make any perceptual improvement?

Like what clouds have..

Kbiggs · Post by **Kbiggs** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:38 am

The Wiss valve system looks vaguely like one of the older valve systems from the late 19th century... like an improved Berlinerpümpen system...

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:11 am

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:14 pm
JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:56 am
Not sure how he's accomplishing that last part. It's not a compensating system, and lowering the pitch a half step from D (1-3) to C#/Db (1-2-3) still requires more tubing than going from G (open) to F#/Gb (2).

Looking at the exterior of the valve block, I'm pretty sure I know what the piston itself looks like (one u-shaped passage and one that's pretty much straight through) - but I'd still like to see some pics.
The website has pictures of the pistons if you click on "Wiss pistons system".

I only see the one pic; it's hard to tell much.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:38 amThe Wiss valve system looks vaguely like one of the older valve systems from the late 19th century... like an improved Berlinerpümpen system...

I think I see some influence from both the Stölzel and "Vienna" valves more so than the Berliner.

I think the real departure from older designs comes in having the u-shaped passages in the valves as part of the open horn.

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:15 am

What about a Teflon coated leadpipe?

Pre59 · Post by **Pre59** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:40 pm

walldaja wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:15 am What about a Teflon coated leadpipe?

Wouldn't it be simpler just to silver plate a lead pipe during manufacture?

jacobgarchik · Post by **jacobgarchik** » Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:49 pm

IMG_2910.JPG

FullPedalTrombonist · Post by **FullPedalTrombonist** » Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:54 pm

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:49 pm IMG_2910.JPG

Wha... what

Conn100HGuy · Post by **Conn100HGuy** » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:32 pm

Definitely, Wedge mouthpieces.

jacobgarchik · Post by **jacobgarchik** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:37 am

From Frank Spigner's FB page (not sure if it's public).

Screen Shot 2020-03-02 at 11.35.41 AM.png

Screen Shot 2020-03-02 at 11.35.52 AM.png

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:41 am

Our bass bone player has a request. He wants a autonomous plunger. Friday night we were playing a gig that called for plunger, unfortunately it also required him to play note which required him to use his valves and his slide. He chose to blow off the plunger thing.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:48 am

walldaja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:41 am Our bass bone player has a request. He wants a autonomous plunger. Friday night we were playing a gig that called for plunger, unfortunately it also required him to play note which required him to use his valves and his slide. He chose to blow off the plunger thing.

That's an easy fix. You attach the plunger to some sort of stand and move the bell to play in and out of the plunger.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:00 pm

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:48 am That's an easy fix. You attach the plunger to some sort of stand and move the bell to play in and out of the plunger.

Easy? Well, perhaps if you have time to acquire and set up your plunger stand (like they did with "Derby" (hat) mutes in the big band days of yesteryear). But not so easy if you show up at a gig unprepared, pull a chart, and see that you'll need to use a plunger at the same time you have to move your slide and use your valve(s)!

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:01 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:00 pm
JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:48 am That's an easy fix. You attach the plunger to some sort of stand and move the bell to play in and out of the plunger.
Easy? Well, perhaps if you have time to acquire and set up your plunger stand (like they did with "Derby" (hat) mutes in the big band days of yesteryear). But not so easy if you show up at a gig unprepared, pull a chart, and see that you'll need to use a plunger at the same time you have to move your slide and use your valve(s)!

Shouldn't be showing up unprepared in the first place. Not if it's a paying gig (and even if it's not, you still need to show up prepared) and not if you want to be invited back.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:33 pm

sungfw wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:01 pm
Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:00 pm Easy? Well, perhaps if you have time to acquire and set up your plunger stand (like they did with "Derby" (hat) mutes in the big band days of yesteryear). But not so easy if you show up at a gig unprepared, pull a chart, and see that you'll need to use a plunger at the same time you have to move your slide and use your valve(s)!
Shouldn't be showing up unprepared in the first place. Not if it's a paying gig (and even if it's not, you still need to show up prepared) and not if you want to be invited back.

Well, I guess I'll never be invited back, because (unless someone alerts me in advance) I do not show up to rehearsals or gigs (where charts may be called on the spot to be pulled from a book of hundreds) with a ready-made "plunger stand."

Are you "prepared" for this?

Post by **BGuttman** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:03 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:33 pm
sungfw wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:01 pm

Shouldn't be showing up unprepared in the first place. Not if it's a paying gig (and even if it's not, you still need to show up prepared) and not if you want to be invited back.
Well, I guess I'll never be invited back, because (unless someone alerts me in advance) I do not show up to rehearsals or gigs (where charts may be called on the spot to be pulled from a book of hundreds) with a ready-made "plunger stand."

Are you "prepared" for this?

Anybody can write something you can't play. I ran into this problem on the 4th part of Harlem Nocturne. Especially upsetting because Earl Hagen was a trombone player. Maybe he intended it to be played on a G Bass?.

I had a length of fishing line attached to my trigger that allowed me to actuate it from the bell. I gave up on it when my finger started to ache from lack of circulation. Now I either fake the plunger or play into the stand.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:08 pm

Yeah, a plunger stand makes it more than possible. There are even hinged ones so you can change the angle of the mute by pressing into it with the bell. That doesn't mean that that is something that should be expected as the norm or used as an excuse for crappy writing / arranging.

There's a piece called Keren by Xenakis that benefits from mutes held up by a stand because of the "impossible" mute changes. It doesn't mention that having a stand might help in the notes. That's the sort of piece you show up to play with that kind of equipment, not a normal big band gig.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:58 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:03 pmAnybody can write something you can't play. I ran into this problem on the 4th part of Harlem Nocturne. Especially upsetting because Earl Hagen was a trombone player. Maybe he intended it to be played on a G Bass?.

I always figured the fourth part on that chart was an afterthought, maybe not even written by Earle Hagen. When Harlem Nocturne was written (1939), bass trombone wasn't part of the standard big band instrumentation.

FullPedalTrombonist · Post by **FullPedalTrombonist** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:36 pm

A hinged plunger stand with a foot pedal! Now I’d buy that. I don’t like the awkward grip I have to do when a chart calls for a plunger.

TheBoneRanger · Post by **TheBoneRanger** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:05 pm

walldaja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:41 am Our bass bone player has a request. He wants a autonomous plunger. Friday night we were playing a gig that called for plunger, unfortunately it also required him to play note which required him to use his valves and his slide. He chose to blow off the plunger thing.

I think I recall hearing of Dave Taylor attaching a plunger to a stick, and velcro-ing it around his lower leg for this purpose.

Andrew

sungfw · Post by **sungfw** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:01 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:33 pm Are you "prepared" for this?

Mic stand, a universal mic holder, and plunger handle: flip up to use; flip down when done. BOOM!

FullPedalTrombonist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:36 pm A hinged plunger stand with a foot pedal! Now I’d buy that.

Swap a Hi-hat stand for the mic stand, weld/hard solder a 3/8-5/8" adapter to the tip, and attach a universal mic holder.

LeoInFL · Post by **LeoInFL** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:27 pm

Latzsch Contrabass trombones have carbon fiber valves! Here's the link from Daniel Clemmensen's youtube:

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:35 am

sungfw wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:01 pm
Mic stand, a universal mic holder, and plunger handle: flip up to use; flip down when done. BOOM!

Swap a Hi-hat stand for the mic stand, weld/hard solder a 3/8-5/8" adapter to the tip, and attach a universal mic holder.

Great solution. Very practical. (If you have a spare mic stand or can weld.) You are indeed prepared. But can you get a true plunger result with this setup? I think I might get dizzy moving my bell into and out of the plunger while trying to create some of the wah-wah effects often written into big band charts.

I'm not sure how classy a full set (4) of these would look on the bandstand at a wedding reception or gala ball!

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:39 am

sungfw wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:01 pm
Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:33 pm Are you "prepared" for this?

Mic stand, a universal mic holder, and plunger handle: flip up to use; flip down when done. BOOM!

FullPedalTrombonist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:36 pm A hinged plunger stand with a foot pedal! Now I’d buy that.
Swap a Hi-hat stand for the mic stand, weld/hard solder a 3/8-5/8" adapter to the tip, and attach a universal mic holder.

Highly innovation! Such awesome! Wow

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:40 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:35 am
Great solution. Very practical. (If you have a spare mic stand or can weld.) You are indeed prepared. But can you get a true plunger result with this setup? I think I might get dizzy moving my bell into and out of the plunger while trying to create some of the wah-wah effects often written into big band charts.

I'm not sure how classy a full set (4) of these would look on the bandstand at a wedding reception or gala ball!

Clearly it won't work unless you use the ugliest plunger possible WITHOUT cutting down the handle at all. The entire handle must be intact!!