Would you buy an instrument without seeing it??

ttf_LongmodelF · Post by **ttf_LongmodelF** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:50 pm

Looking through the classifieds for the first time I was suprised by the high percentage of entries without attached photographs. This puzzled me as I would certainly not buy an instrument without a least seeing a photo first. anyone out there who would?? and why??

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:53 pm

I think it depends on the person(s) you're buying the horns from. I've bought three trombones from a couple of people on the forum and have been very happy with all three of them. Both of these guys have excellent reputations for the horns they have available and I think their reps are well deserved.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:54 pm

that is a question I ask whenever I see that someone has found an instrument on craiglist.

I mean, ebay is bad enough but you usually get pictures, on craiglist unless you can travel to where it is, all you have is someone's description

or am I missing something?

by the way, I have bought two trombones w/o seeing them or seeing pictures, both from DJ Kennedy and I haven't been disappointed.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:14 pm

To a large extent it is dependent on the price and whether I can afford to buy a "pig in a poke".

I bought one that turned out to be a nice G-bass (I was hoping it was).

I bought another that turned out to be a Conn Director in a fancier Conn "Wedgie" Case. I sold off the trombone, still have the case in case I need a decent case.

Would I buy a "critical" horn that way? NO!

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:10 pm

I would from DJ.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:22 pm

I did and it was the worst purchase I've ever made. As a matter of fact, from now on I will never buy or trade a horn without playing it for at least a full week.

ttf_Jeff Smith · Post by **ttf_Jeff Smith** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:38 pm

As Sam Burtis often likes to quote:

Yer pays yer money, yer takes yer chances.

I've done it 5 or 6 times, and been both delighted and disappointed.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:42 pm

My four horns I've bought- three used trombones, and one brand new euph- have all been great. All sight unseen. As well as all the mouthpieces I use now.

ttf_LizM · Post by **ttf_LizM** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:46 pm

I know that I have had a lot of problems adding photos to TTF classifieds so I email pictures to interested parties.

ttf_trombone addict · Post by **ttf_trombone addict** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:04 pm

If I am in the market for a used horn, I will go to TRUSTED sellers who are honest, and will probably exchange a few PM's so that I can get a better idea of what I am getting out of the deal.

Without seeing it? I would want at least pictures.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:44 pm

no, pics or you don't have it.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:39 am

I've always had a hard time figuring out why a lot of ads/posts don't have pictures. I know grandparents who know how to take pictures (on their phone!) and post them to the internet. It's not that hard.

ttf_chipolah · Post by **ttf_chipolah** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:57 am

I would never buy a trombone online without seeing some photos. I think it's more problematic buying a trbn online because of slide issues. I've never bought a horn from DJ, but I'm sure from what I have heard, I would trust his word. I bought a vintage Holton 65 on Ebay last year. The photos looked OK. When I got the horn, the slide was completely unrepairable. It was sprung, dented and rippled. (the photos looked good) By the way, I put a Holton tr-100 slide (.500 bore) on the 65 bell (.458) and the result was miraculous. Great response in all registers and VERY in tune.

ttf_trombone addict · Post by **ttf_trombone addict** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:58 am

They should at least say e-mail for pictures

Sometimes its hard to put stuff up here

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:29 am

Pictures sometimes tell a thousand works, sometimes they lie.

I would buy an instrument from a seller I knew to be trustworthy, and those are few and far between. I can think of a half dozen guys here on the forum that I would trust their word and pretty much no one else. The TTF classifieds have treated me well, but I have not bought any horns off of it. I did buy/trade a horn from DJ a while back, and it was in fact as he described. DJ is my buddy and I know he likes helping people and not just selling snake oil. He is legit and honest in his descriptions. This forum is full of testimonials for him. He is one of the guys I trust.

Now back to the point. Caveat Emptor Buying a horn from someone without pictures that is unknown and selling for too low of a price?? Probably too good to be true.

Benn

ttf_trombone addict · Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:57 am

Like Benn said, Quote from: octavposaune on Aug 27, 2011, 10:29AMI would buy an instrument from a seller I knew to be trustworthy, and those are few and far between.

If I was buying from a trustworthy seller and he gives accurate descriptions of the product (like DJ does) then I would be more inclined to buy it.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:10 pm

[s][/s]

[li][/li][li][/li]

====================================
IFF REALLY BIG IF A HUGE IF

i could do pics
i could take pics of a total crappola trombone
AND make it look GREAT
i have gotten ROTTEN JUNKQUE WITH PICS !!!!!!

==============
i have sold numerous trombone w/o pics
you cant tell -if slide has a pro setup
how a bell responds
what the vibration is like
if a horn is a good match for personality
what it will need
clean or dirty
-------------------
even w pics sometimes it is risky
------------
buying from a ttf member in full standing is
much safer
because of the ttf code of honor
w certain exceptions --namely koda goldberg
and those ttf members who would abuse other members
w a bad bone
face severe criticism from the body
-------
in fact many parents who have researched sources
often come to the forum seeking advice
--------
buying from ebay w pics --right now july 18
no trombone//paypal advantage member ???///
NO REFUND YET

1136
dis[pute /phone calls //still no $$$$$$$$$
----------
while pics are a great help
i know what a 2b 3b bach 36 looks like

what i wanna know is much more
----------
and this much more is what you will get from
a ttf member
--------------------
GET THE PICTURE !!!!
--------------
and thanks everyone for placing much value
on reputation
--------
of course i have dropped the ball on deals
many many times
often i loose track of the correspondence
and someone looking gets
forgotten
--------
communication is the biggest thing

------------

ttf_Dan Martin · Post by **ttf_Dan Martin** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:48 pm

Yes Yes Yes. Buy every Martin Committee trumpet that comes up for sale under 1001 dollars if it was made in Elkhart. Thats a fact. Who needs a picture of a great deal? Just one example. If you need it to be in a certain condition, visually, then by all means a picture is worth about as much a the paper its printed on. The real test is in the blow.

I think its the buyer responsibility to ask all the questions that have not been addressed if its important to you. But if you buy a horn with limited information then its your fault. If the seller has intentionally left out critical details that would tip the scales in their favor then its a bad seller needing to be avoided. People make mistakes. I have in posting ads. A full proof return policy takes care of that. alway am willing to take back any horn I have sold, or am selling for any reason within a reasonable amount of time. I think this takes care of any mistakes. Just because you don't like the blow is not a great reason though. It should be a no brainer. If you buy any trombone without playing it first you may not like it. That is not the fault of the seller. It just seems like part of the equation to me. Like buying a hat without trying it on first. Not my fault you look funny in it. Now If you want to buy a horn on the condition that you would like to try it out first then by all means ask for that option. I'll do it. But you can't expect the seller to eat the shipping and handling costs. Insurance is expensive. Its way better to buy a trombone from someone that cares about their reputation. Most forum members here care about their reputations. Some don't. For example. If you don't know the value of an instrument that you want to sell, say a Williams horn. Most people here know that they command at the very least several hundred dollars. Especially the guys that collect them and already own them. Greed can overcome some people and cause them to be dishonest and make them do anything to buy a horn. Including omission of the truth. The same goes for sellers. They tend to get greedy and leave out something. Its usually that something that is the most important. Look at an ad and ask yourself what they left out, then ask about that specifically. If you don't you will get burned almost every time. On occasion I will pick a trombone that had pictures from a cell phone that are blurry, and there is no way you can tell the true condition. Usually someones ex roommate or a parent that has no real desire for anything other than getting rid of a space taker. The hundred dollar 6h is almost always a great deal.

In short. It always the buyers responsibility to ask the right questions.

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:00 pm

I did from DJ.....why because he has a great rep, and a great Rep takes a lot of hard work to build and only one bad deal to destroy!!!

And it's a great horn and would do so again...and that's why I recomend DJ!

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:21 pm

Yes, yes, yes. I bought a great blowing 16M from dj and it was everything he promised. I also bought a couple of Earl Williams bones from Noah Gladstone (Slipmo) and they were everything he promised. They were a couple of great horns and I hardly play the others anymore. For sure, these are a couple of guys who are true to their word.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:41 pm

I've purchased (or traded) two trombones from DJ and both times he came thru impeccably. You can't go wrong with him!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:07 am

I'll add my recommendations for dj too. Just took delivery, from halfway around the world and sight unseen, in 6 days, of a 1920's King I needed for a period correct thingy I'm up to.

Initially it didn't need to be a player but then things changed a little and I needed one that played as well as looked "like new" but still correct for the period. He came through with an ideal horn that sounds really good too. The slide, as you might expect, is not perfect, but a little work and it will be perfectly playable - it almost is now.

Thanks dj.

ttf_KINGJIGG1943 · Post by **ttf_KINGJIGG1943** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:47 pm

I think you will ultimately be disappointed if you don't the see the horn 1st. With today's tech., there is no excuse....

But I have bought without seeing it.... it was Carl Fontana's old horn.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:38 pm

when lawrie asked --this meant i had to dig up possibles --AND TRY THEM

----
those oldie non plated inners are high maintaince [sp]
after much polishing the old lube of choice--oil
i think --if you used one lots and got it broke in after a layer of slime built up it might slide great
----------
trying these dust covered relics was an odious task --until i hit upon the king which not only looked

Quote from: Lawrie on Aug 30, 2011, 03:07AMI'll add my recommendations for dj too. Just took delivery, from halfway around the world and sight unseen, in 6 days, of a 1920's King I needed for a period correct thingy I'm up to.

Initially it didn't need to be a player but then things changed a little and I needed one that played as well as looked "like new" but still correct for the period. He came through with an ideal horn that sounds really good too. The slide, as you might expect, is not perfect, but a little work and it will be perfectly playable - it almost is now.

Thanks dj.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:57 pm

[[[[[[[ looked]]]]]]]]] [sorry--glitstzh]
looked mint --inside case mint oliveish wide wale corduroy --a real time capsule /only flaw------- outside of case light coat of black paint --faint gold US peeking thru
-----------------for an oldie --this one is a goodie
a conn w 2 tuning slides ///super early rudy muck//besson prototype
the besson may have been too early//york pro //
------------
well before lawrie was sworn to secrecy he mentioned some sort of adventure escapade possibly with actors perhaps documented etc
im thinking it may be something about life in the opal fields
a background story connecting the parents of
CROCODILE DUNDEE AND JAMES BOND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sort of a retro mystery w a tinge of orientilism
ala fu manchu
with abos billibongs --women ---ok
a romance when a cross country tour of silver ghost rolls royces gets bogged down in torrential rains
and our character who plays trombone in a ragtime orchestra
falls in love with a yellow dress
----------
there is much more of course to the story
but this is all i have scripted thusfar
--------
kids --ok you asked for it a tale of twins --
---------
lots of tea and whiskey

ttf_Lawrie · Post by **ttf_Lawrie** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:11 pm

While I can't confirm or deny any of dj's story, I can say that I do happen to be in an opal field as I write - thank goodness for 3G internet access - A place called Lightning Ridge in Northern country NSW... To be more specific, I'm in a mining camp on "Lunatic Hill" in an area called the "Three Mile".

Think what you will...

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:28 am

lightningridge coober pedy -- famous for black opals !!!!!!!
love opals opal in matrix --wow !!!!!!!!

Quote from: Lawrie on Sep 01, 2011, 04:11PMWhile I can't confirm or deny any of dj's story, I can say that I do happen to be in an opal field as I write - thank goodness for 3G internet access - A place called Lightning Ridge in Northern country NSW... To be more specific, I'm in a mining camp on "Lunatic Hill" in an area called the "Three Mile".

Think what you will...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:38 am

To answer the question, Yes. And I still play it...my '56 6H.

It was in a pawn shop in Butte, Montana. A guy I'd met online told me he saw the horn when he dropped in to browse.

The Pawn shop was just about to list it on Ebay. When asked how much they'd sell it to me and forget Ebay, he said $400. Done. I got the horn. He even covered postage. Such a deal!

Technically I saw it (in photos) but I never had a chance to play it until it showed up on my doorstep.

After spending $35 to clean up the slide (Thanks Eric Edwards!), the horn has been my main one ever since. Oh, I paid another $200 to have the slide lightened. GREAT investment!!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:58 pm

I must admit I learned a great deal from a horn deal two years ago. I found a particular instrument in The Classifieds, contacted the seller a couple of times, then made the great mistake of hesitating. I told him I would take the instrument thinking I had a deal; an hour later I learned it was sold to someone on Craiglist. That made me very angry because I felt a deal was a deal. BUT, everything worked out as I found a Martin Imperial on ebay that came with a 7 day guarantee; it arrived and within ten minutes it called my house its new home.

ttf_JimArcher · Post by **ttf_JimArcher** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:24 pm

I bought an Olds Super, ca 1938 off the Seattle Craigslist a few years ago, no pics. The asking price was $150; I e-mailed the seller as soon as I saw the ad, turned out to be the first reply. (It was a 2 owner horn, the second got it in the 50s, played it in hs, then it sat in his closet all the intervening years. Great shape, no dents, a v. good player, no slide or bell locks, original coffin case with a water damaged end (the stored bottom), an easy repair.)

ttf_ottisthetrombonist · Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:44 am

I'm not sure if I would buy one without seeing it. I am a BIG fan of used, but because I am a kid, if the trombone is to big for me I can't play it. Therefore, I have to see it, but also hold it.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:08 am

a good description over the phone is like a live radio broadcast of a baseball game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:10 am

It's a gamble. Sometimes you win big. The thing is to lose small. Don't risk a lot of money if there's not a lot of good photo documentation (unless you know the seller.) I can't count the number of times that a bad picture or no picture at all has left me with something next to worthless or worth less than I paid. The last one was a silver 44H. Nice horn, but no slide handle!! How am I supposed to play it with no slide handle? They were telling the truth when they said "slide works fast and smooth." It was self-aligning!!

The best ever was a wall hanger covered with fabric flowers. You couldn't even see the horn under the junk. Bought it cheap because curiosity got the best of me, cut away the flowers, and found a very tarnished copper bell. It was a 12H from the '50s!

ttf_marcoflex · Post by **ttf_marcoflex** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:59 am

you always take a chance when you purchase unseen, however, I believe that most people on this forum are very reliable.

ttf_JSBassTrb · Post by **ttf_JSBassTrb** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:42 pm

I bought my Yamaha 830 without ever playing or seeing one in person, and it was definitely worth it!

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:43 am

Quote from: dj kennedy on Sep 12, 2011, 02:08AMa

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:10 pm

I don't care who is selling it, unless it's a an absolute steal no matter the shape a picture is the bare minimum. A video is a pretty solid idea as well. Even my lousy computer has a good enough video camera to prove a horn's condition and playability.

Plus, having a picture in an ad helps draw attention to it. I don't know why anyone WOULDN'T have a picture in a for sale ad.

ttf_W/SBTRB · Post by **ttf_W/SBTRB** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:12 pm

I would never but a trombone without seeing it or playing it first. If I was a collector I would at least want to see it.Only own two, Reynolds Contempora Bass with a Conn 72H valve and my Getzen 1052R.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:23 pm

I've bought several, sight unseen - and gotten nice/decent deals.

Last 2 horns I have bought, I had pictures - and weren't great deals.
Horn 1 - I could see the damage, knew it needed some work. But didn't see the red rot in the tubes.
Horn 2 - lacquer was bad, but horn looked ok. Once it arrived, the old lacquer had hid many dents/dings in the pics. And.. it also has some red rot (slide crook, maybe tubes too), and the slide (supposedly was good), needs an alignment pretty badly (maybe new tubes, if the old ones have red rot).

So fact is - you get good deals, and bad deals - no matter if you have pictures or not.
It's a chance ya take. You win some, ya loose some.

BUT.... going to someone with a great reputation (like DJ or Noah), I wouldn't need pictures.
I trust their word/description, and reputation 100%.

T.

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:41 pm

I will say that the last trombone I got from DJ almost two years ago, sight unseen, is now my major horn that I'm playing. I would never hesitate in doing business with him at all.

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:21 pm

Quote from: tsmart on Sep 19, 2011, 02:23PM
BUT.... going to someone with a great reputation (like DJ or Noah), I wouldn't need pictures.
I trust their word/description, and reputation 100%.

T.

Thanks for the good word, T!

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:54 pm

thanks duster !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and troy too
i have gotten scammed even with pics
and if i could do pics
i could take pics of a total junk and make it look good
------
what i dont like is surprizes and sloppy packing
sloppy packing even from some trombonists
i got a perfect 2b silversonic ---------------wrecked flare from end drop kick
numerous RATTLERS -----you can hear the rattler
mail man moves box ----RATTLE RATTLE
HA HA WHATTA YA GOT DJ ---BABY TOYS ------------HA HA RATTLE RATTLE
this means one or more loose mouthpieces
---------
so then each and every time you get one shipped to you
you need to TELL THE SENDER --HOW TO PACK
then some act like -WHAT DO YOU THINK IM STOOOOPID ????????
YA !!!!!!!!!!!! huge box 6 inches of foam peanuts around case /trombone rattle=STOOPID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------
so i like to carefully wrap the slide w tissue and stuff inside of case ---i have to allow myself an hour to pack
-------
CASES ARE DANGEROUS !!!!!!!!!!!--ESP BASS BONES !!!!!!!

Quote from: ddickerson on Sep 19, 2011, 02:41PMI will say that the last trombone I got from DJ almost two years ago, sight unseen, is now my major horn that I'm playing. I would never hesitate in doing business with him at all.

ttf_JimArcher · Post by **ttf_JimArcher** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:45 am

My bass 'bone came from WW&BW with a crimpled bell very likely because of my requirement for expedited shipping; they took $100 off the price which covered the repair.
The '28 Olds with the original case that I got this summer came with two loose mouthpieces "wrapped" in cleaning cloths which dinged up the bell.

So as in the first example, even when shippers know what they're doing $^&(# happens.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:33 pm

And if ya pay extra, for UPS or FED-X to package it.... well, it cost extra $$$, and you get ZERO interior packing at all.

I've paid nearly $100 extra, on two occasions (where the seller didn't want to ship), just so they could pay UPS and Fed-X to pack it.... and both times - nothing was packed inside the case. The outside case its self was WELL packed and protected.... but the horn inside, was bare.

And one would think a shipping company would know how to package something (especially with their prices!).

T.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:50 pm

Quote from: tsmart on Sep 21, 2011, 07:33PMAnd one would think a shipping company would know how to package something (especially with their prices!).

They probably just took it to the local UPS or FedEx retail establishment. Some of them are good, some aren't.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:50 am

In the past 3 months I have bought perhaps 30 mpcs and maybe 7 trombones - many of those were multiple purchases - component parts of Shires.
And I would have one piece of advice to share.
Be VERY VERY careful when you buy from an overseas seller.
Why - because even with ebay and paypal buyer protection, the purchaser, if outside the US, is responsible for return shipping.
Which means that the vendor can send you whatever they like...or pack things as poorly as they like, and it is up to you, the purchaser, to pay the return postage in order to get your refund.
Of the 20 or so non mouthpiece packages I have received from perhaps 8 vendors, many purchased through this forum, I would describe only three of those vendors as being 100% 'honest' in what they described prior to sale.
And only two of those three took real care to pack things such that there was a 95%+ chance of things arriving undamaged.
Most have been sparing with the truth about what they were selling.
And almost all have packaged things in a way that I would never dream of doing myself.
So, though I (living in Australia) have no option but to buy instruments without having the chance to play them.....I have endured a lot of pain in several of the purchases.
Either because vendors took more than a month to actually dispatch things.
Or because vendors didn't tell the whole truth about and instrument.
Or because the packaging was woeful.
So - indeed - buyer beware!

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:11 am

Quote from: peter1908 on Nov 06, 2011, 01:50AM
And only two of those three took real care to pack things such that there was a 95%+ chance of things arriving undamaged.

I have a question about this. I understand that Australia is a distant destination for most shippers, but was there actual damage to the items or just the perception that there was a potential for damage?

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:20 am

Think about this......

The trombone world is a small world.
If you want to maintain a good reputation then do good by your fellow colleagues.
Mess up just once and that mistake will stick with you for a long time!!!

It's not that difficult to pack and ship a horn safely...... Don't ever cut corners!!!

I learnt this working part time in a reputable Brass instrument shop many moons ago.
I was in charge of quality control, packing and shipping!!!
Never had one complaint in 3 years.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:39 am

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Nov 06, 2011, 03:20AM

It's not that difficult to pack and ship a horn safely...... Don't ever cut corners!!!

Yes, but there are different ideas of what makes something "safe." Some people only ship in cases, some only ship without cases. Some wrap the horn inside the case, some wrap outside of the case. Most reputable shippers stick with what has always worked best for them. I'm certain that some cut corners. However, I'm also certain that there are gray areas regarding when a corner has actually been cut.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:17 am

There is "Safe" and "Unsafe" YMMV