Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
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Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
If this has happened to you, and you have recovered from it, or given up playing on its account, I would very much like to here from you 'first' on your experience. I hope that there will be all manner of secondary suggestions too, and I would be thankful for any original incites, but I fear this really is something that has to be experienced. OR...maybe this is what its like to struggle with play, which is something I have never had to do.
It has happened that in a fairly short period of time I have somehow lost my embouchure! Two years ago I returned to playing after 35 years away, and quickly recovered the strong natural embouchure, having easy facility and good endurance, that are the reward of good natural mechanics, which allow play with little apparent need of pressure to win range, volume, or flexibility.
I was able to play reliably and comfortably up to double A (triple Bb just wasn’t in the horn), without much taxing my play. A typical session (7days/week) involved a 15 minute warm-up/technique review, and 45 minutes of concerted work on relatively challenging recital pieces the likes of Schumann’s Fantasiestucke, Op. 73, or his Drei Romanzen, Op. 94 or Debussy’s, Syrinx, all of which I was preparing for a recording.
If time permitted, I played some high lyric ballades from one of Alan Kaplan’s two MMO volumes, and then I finished with some standard orchestral excerpts to make sure that orchestral potential was still a component in my otherwise pursuit of a polite recital voice. It should be said that the room I play in is 40 feet square, with a 12 foot ceiling, so while there was plenty of space for the sound to expand in, I don’t think I was over reaching.
However, 5 months ago I started to notice air leaking out of both corners of my embouchure that I was able to stop it with minimal conscious effort. My tone was centered and resonant so I didn’t worry. Over time though, it started to get worse. Then my tuning started to go all over the place, even though the rich, vibrant tone suggested to me that every note was centered.
Then my pitch started to go up, and my tuning slide had to come out to accommodate it; which was odd because I hadn’t moved it in two years. Additionally, there was almost 50 cents difference between the 3rd harmonic (middle Bb) and the 2nd (low Bb) when played in the same position. The higher harmonics were less effected, but were effected none the less. Notes still spoke easily and tone was vibrant.
There was no sense of fatigue or weakness to advise me. In fact it became the opposite, an absence or lightness of feeling or feedback, which I took as strength. I could play as reliably at the end of a session as I could the beginning, but in addition to these new artifacts that had taken up permanent residence in my play, my control started to go: it was as if I had too much…ability, and no way to manage it.
Then I started having problem articulating notes in the low register. It seemed that my embouchure was unable to sustain itself against the volume of air necessary to the notes production. I couldn't feel the note, though I could find it just wasn't where I expected it to be. Having acquired it, it wouldn’t stabilize, wandering aimlessly about in pitch, intensity, and resonance regardless of volume.
I did some on-line research and found the paper by Lucinda Lewis’s on, Embouchure Overuse Syndrome In Brass Players, but it didn’t, in detail, seem to be quite the correct match. Nevertheless, I took 3 weeks off to rest up, just in case some kind of fatigue was to blame, and come back at it now and I find that nothing has changed. The good of it is that I don’t make a living playing. The bad of it was that I enjoyed it.
It has happened that in a fairly short period of time I have somehow lost my embouchure! Two years ago I returned to playing after 35 years away, and quickly recovered the strong natural embouchure, having easy facility and good endurance, that are the reward of good natural mechanics, which allow play with little apparent need of pressure to win range, volume, or flexibility.
I was able to play reliably and comfortably up to double A (triple Bb just wasn’t in the horn), without much taxing my play. A typical session (7days/week) involved a 15 minute warm-up/technique review, and 45 minutes of concerted work on relatively challenging recital pieces the likes of Schumann’s Fantasiestucke, Op. 73, or his Drei Romanzen, Op. 94 or Debussy’s, Syrinx, all of which I was preparing for a recording.
If time permitted, I played some high lyric ballades from one of Alan Kaplan’s two MMO volumes, and then I finished with some standard orchestral excerpts to make sure that orchestral potential was still a component in my otherwise pursuit of a polite recital voice. It should be said that the room I play in is 40 feet square, with a 12 foot ceiling, so while there was plenty of space for the sound to expand in, I don’t think I was over reaching.
However, 5 months ago I started to notice air leaking out of both corners of my embouchure that I was able to stop it with minimal conscious effort. My tone was centered and resonant so I didn’t worry. Over time though, it started to get worse. Then my tuning started to go all over the place, even though the rich, vibrant tone suggested to me that every note was centered.
Then my pitch started to go up, and my tuning slide had to come out to accommodate it; which was odd because I hadn’t moved it in two years. Additionally, there was almost 50 cents difference between the 3rd harmonic (middle Bb) and the 2nd (low Bb) when played in the same position. The higher harmonics were less effected, but were effected none the less. Notes still spoke easily and tone was vibrant.
There was no sense of fatigue or weakness to advise me. In fact it became the opposite, an absence or lightness of feeling or feedback, which I took as strength. I could play as reliably at the end of a session as I could the beginning, but in addition to these new artifacts that had taken up permanent residence in my play, my control started to go: it was as if I had too much…ability, and no way to manage it.
Then I started having problem articulating notes in the low register. It seemed that my embouchure was unable to sustain itself against the volume of air necessary to the notes production. I couldn't feel the note, though I could find it just wasn't where I expected it to be. Having acquired it, it wouldn’t stabilize, wandering aimlessly about in pitch, intensity, and resonance regardless of volume.
I did some on-line research and found the paper by Lucinda Lewis’s on, Embouchure Overuse Syndrome In Brass Players, but it didn’t, in detail, seem to be quite the correct match. Nevertheless, I took 3 weeks off to rest up, just in case some kind of fatigue was to blame, and come back at it now and I find that nothing has changed. The good of it is that I don’t make a living playing. The bad of it was that I enjoyed it.
- JohnL
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Doug Elliott.
'nuff said.
'nuff said.
- Doug Elliott
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
I am good at diagnosing and fixing things like that, in a lesson by Skype or Zoom
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
- harrisonreed
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Sounds like what happened to Phil Smith.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Doug Elliott
Phil Smith suffered focal dystonia
Phil Smith suffered focal dystonia
- harrisonreed
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
He sure did, and still does. Started with air leaking out of his corners.
- Wilktone
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
A diagnosis of focal task-specific dystonia should only be given by a specialist. No ethical medical professional would even offer a prognosis without first seeing the patient either. I would not recommend that you get a medical diagnosis from a musician over the internet (or even from a musician in person). If you have medical concerns visit your general practitioner and get a referral to a neurologist.
I have an educated guess as to what might be going on, but I'd have to see how you're playing, tskeldon. If my guess is right, it would further take some careful experimentation to figure out what you should be doing to make your corrections. I'm happy to do watch a video of your playing or meet with you via Zoom to give you my thoughts, but if you have the chance to do this with Doug Elliott he has more experience with this than me.
I have an educated guess as to what might be going on, but I'd have to see how you're playing, tskeldon. If my guess is right, it would further take some careful experimentation to figure out what you should be doing to make your corrections. I'm happy to do watch a video of your playing or meet with you via Zoom to give you my thoughts, but if you have the chance to do this with Doug Elliott he has more experience with this than me.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Years ago, the principal trumpeter in the professional orchestra I played in suddenly started experiencing extreme problems with almost every aspect of his playing. He had always been totally dependable and was definitely a virtuoso on his instrument. For months he struggled with the fallout and after almost a year was able to make some progress towards becoming his former self as a player. A specialist that he visited was able to ascertain that he had a virus that had settled in his facial muscles which had weakened them and had led to the spiraling loss of his hallmarks -- strength and control. As he ascended from this trauma, a particularly poignant moment occurred when a composition of the Russian composer Shchedrin was put on the concert schedule. In rehearsal, the conductor, a particularly cruel individual who had no sympathy with the trumpeter's lot, displayed his worst side. The piece began with a 64 bar [?] exposed trumpet solo with the lightest of accompaniment that had a had a high tessitura and a moderate tempo. An excruciating solo that any performer would find taxing to the extreme. The orchestra, having never heard the piece before was on tenterhooks as he negotiated his way through what was obviously a dangerous passage. He did so without so much as a "nicked" note and we all knew that he'd overcome an huge obstacle to his career. He was rewarded with the traditional shuffle of feet that musicians give each other for a "well done". What happened next was one of the most cruel things I've ever seen from a podium, when the conductor said, "Once again, from the top" ! There was a collective groan from the ensemble and without a moment for rest, the downbeat came again. After hearing the difficulty of the opening, the orchestra was especially attuned to the trumpet solo which was again performed without the slightest imperfection. This time, the end of the solo was met with a rousing ovation from the ensemble and even the conductor, who had hoped to "break" the trumpeter, was forced to voice his approval of what he'd just heard.
That's the story. Now, consider if you might possibly be recovering from Covid 19. We know so very little about Covid's effects downstream of having contracted the illness and the definite possibility that it is a factor in these mysterious symptoms. As we DO know, some folks are asymptomatic and one of the characteristics of the disease is a soreness in muscle tissue. Something to be considered ? I think so.
That's the story. Now, consider if you might possibly be recovering from Covid 19. We know so very little about Covid's effects downstream of having contracted the illness and the definite possibility that it is a factor in these mysterious symptoms. As we DO know, some folks are asymptomatic and one of the characteristics of the disease is a soreness in muscle tissue. Something to be considered ? I think so.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
I believe Stephan Dejersky (or however you spell it) From the berlin phil (Associate principal horn) also had this.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:30 amHe sure did, and still does. Started with air leaking out of his corners.
- BGuttman
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Bell's Palsy is a virus that settles in the facial muscles. I had a friend (and fine trombone player) who came down with it and had to give up trombone. She switched to cello (good choice since her husband plays double bass). Again, have a doctor check you out for this.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Stefan de Leval Jezierski had Bell's Palsy, not task specific focal dystonia.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Hi eveyone,
Thank-you for you generous input. I had considered the neurological aspect, but Bell's palsy is, I think, typically characterized by facial weakness and drooping, and is generally, though not always temporary. I have/had no drooping and no real weakness, as I can still play easily in the high-register, with facility and flexability,
It seems to manifest as ever diminishing control and responsiveness. Its the 'feel' or 'feedback' that seems to be gone or to have been traded away, though I have no actual loss of feeling or sensation in my lips or embouchure. I have no 'placement' problems, my jaw position has not changed, nor has the cant of my deploy of the horn.
I had also considered the Covid aspect, knowing that it is given to settle in (as viruses are want to do) and weaken the nerve branch it takes up residence in, like shingles, but I had hoped that it was something more closely akin and less indelible like fatigue. I think that a Covid test is in order though.
It may be relevant that I have labored to...'escape' conventional trombone practices to realize an instrumental freedom and facility not normally achieved on trombone in the classical sense. We all know jazz greats whose technique transcends the instrument's conventions, but no one has yet pursued it purposefully classically.
By practicing and using extreme alternate positions, I was able to play the challenging technical sections in the Schumann clarinet and cello pieces that I mentioned at or beyond typical or even accelerated cello and clarinet speed (where the music demanded it) with little or no trombone artifact to betray it beyond tone.
The goal had been to achieve the facility of valves while using a slide. I had begun to wonder what if any it might be costing me to develop a consonant sound when playing all notes in foreign positions. I wondered if somehow I was trading away a 'solid' center to my embouchure by requiring of it things that perturb its health & happiness.
My tone suggests that everything was/is fine, but maybe that is just a reflection of the general resilience of the skin on my lips is fine, not that the muscles are sound. I stopped playing for three weeks, and found that in returning it was difficult to play above high F (above high Bb). Is that a normal or accelerated decay of strength?
I'm going to play now. If it goes according to convention, the first notes will feel familiar and sound on the face. The process of continuance however is greeted these days by tragedy of being increasingly divorced from reliability of...anything.
I think that there my be a neurologist in my future, as the Focal Dystonia seems the most likely agent. There may also be a zoom meeting in my future. Thanks for your help, your advice, and your patience.
Thank-you for you generous input. I had considered the neurological aspect, but Bell's palsy is, I think, typically characterized by facial weakness and drooping, and is generally, though not always temporary. I have/had no drooping and no real weakness, as I can still play easily in the high-register, with facility and flexability,
It seems to manifest as ever diminishing control and responsiveness. Its the 'feel' or 'feedback' that seems to be gone or to have been traded away, though I have no actual loss of feeling or sensation in my lips or embouchure. I have no 'placement' problems, my jaw position has not changed, nor has the cant of my deploy of the horn.
I had also considered the Covid aspect, knowing that it is given to settle in (as viruses are want to do) and weaken the nerve branch it takes up residence in, like shingles, but I had hoped that it was something more closely akin and less indelible like fatigue. I think that a Covid test is in order though.
It may be relevant that I have labored to...'escape' conventional trombone practices to realize an instrumental freedom and facility not normally achieved on trombone in the classical sense. We all know jazz greats whose technique transcends the instrument's conventions, but no one has yet pursued it purposefully classically.
By practicing and using extreme alternate positions, I was able to play the challenging technical sections in the Schumann clarinet and cello pieces that I mentioned at or beyond typical or even accelerated cello and clarinet speed (where the music demanded it) with little or no trombone artifact to betray it beyond tone.
The goal had been to achieve the facility of valves while using a slide. I had begun to wonder what if any it might be costing me to develop a consonant sound when playing all notes in foreign positions. I wondered if somehow I was trading away a 'solid' center to my embouchure by requiring of it things that perturb its health & happiness.
My tone suggests that everything was/is fine, but maybe that is just a reflection of the general resilience of the skin on my lips is fine, not that the muscles are sound. I stopped playing for three weeks, and found that in returning it was difficult to play above high F (above high Bb). Is that a normal or accelerated decay of strength?
I'm going to play now. If it goes according to convention, the first notes will feel familiar and sound on the face. The process of continuance however is greeted these days by tragedy of being increasingly divorced from reliability of...anything.
I think that there my be a neurologist in my future, as the Focal Dystonia seems the most likely agent. There may also be a zoom meeting in my future. Thanks for your help, your advice, and your patience.
- Doug Elliott
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
I'm around if you want me to take a look.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Thanks Doug! I'm less concerned with recovery than I am with documenting my experience to profit others who actually make their living playing. This condition would prove a horrible fate for an individual who is vocationally, emotionally, psychologically, and financially immersed and invested in music making.
For me, taking up playing again was just a way to explore what I suspected was the unrealized potential of the instrument, and I guess, by extension, evidence of occult or dormant talent that had been left unrealized in me (in a previous life) for having pursued proficiency by subscription to paradigms of play that I didn't resonate with.
For me, taking up playing again was just a way to explore what I suspected was the unrealized potential of the instrument, and I guess, by extension, evidence of occult or dormant talent that had been left unrealized in me (in a previous life) for having pursued proficiency by subscription to paradigms of play that I didn't resonate with.
- paulyg
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
I had/am having a very similar experience.
I was doing a LOT of playing- 3-4 hours of practice per day, using habits not built around that length of practice time, on top of rehearsing in groups. This probably went on for three months. I was frustrated with the lack of progress and just pushed harder and harder. I put myself under pretty extreme demands- volume, flexibility, stamina, range, being able to double without any prep, that kind of thing.
I noticed after a while that my exhaustion at the end of the practice session would actually be better described as discomfort. Eventually it turned into pain. Instead of being able to rip off a three-octave scale, I was struggling to play above a D above the staff.
I decided to take a week off. That didn't fix it. Then I got sick- took two weeks off. That didn't fix it either. I may have been seeing SOME improvement, but really nothing immediately noticeable. I was very gun shy, and had to force myself to play.
Covid hit, and I decided to take 10 weeks off the horn. I came back VERY slowly, and really focused on getting a resonant, straight sound, which is something that I was struggling with long before I started having these issues (and may have driven me to overwork myself).
A month into that I finally bit the bullet and got a lesson with Doug. I don't want to go point-by-point through that experience (I'm sure it differs for most of the people who get lessons with him), but I distinctly remember apologizing for not being warmed-up. He said something to the extent of "people always want to sound good for me, that's not why I'm here."
He set me right on some things I was doing wrong. Not only did my progress take off after I combined his advice with diligent practice, but I finally got a grip on the resonant, centered sound that I've been chasing for YEARS. It's amazing what doing things the right way can fix.
I still have occasional discomfort when I really go for it (usually a reminder that I'm reverting to the old ways), and my endurance isn't near where it used to be, but I can do a hell of a lot more now than I could a year and a half ago. I've rebuilt a solid range, and I can make it through a Rochut or five- with a much fuller, resonant, centered sound than I'd ever produced in the "before" times.
Take a lesson with Doug, you won't regret it.
I was doing a LOT of playing- 3-4 hours of practice per day, using habits not built around that length of practice time, on top of rehearsing in groups. This probably went on for three months. I was frustrated with the lack of progress and just pushed harder and harder. I put myself under pretty extreme demands- volume, flexibility, stamina, range, being able to double without any prep, that kind of thing.
I noticed after a while that my exhaustion at the end of the practice session would actually be better described as discomfort. Eventually it turned into pain. Instead of being able to rip off a three-octave scale, I was struggling to play above a D above the staff.
I decided to take a week off. That didn't fix it. Then I got sick- took two weeks off. That didn't fix it either. I may have been seeing SOME improvement, but really nothing immediately noticeable. I was very gun shy, and had to force myself to play.
Covid hit, and I decided to take 10 weeks off the horn. I came back VERY slowly, and really focused on getting a resonant, straight sound, which is something that I was struggling with long before I started having these issues (and may have driven me to overwork myself).
A month into that I finally bit the bullet and got a lesson with Doug. I don't want to go point-by-point through that experience (I'm sure it differs for most of the people who get lessons with him), but I distinctly remember apologizing for not being warmed-up. He said something to the extent of "people always want to sound good for me, that's not why I'm here."
He set me right on some things I was doing wrong. Not only did my progress take off after I combined his advice with diligent practice, but I finally got a grip on the resonant, centered sound that I've been chasing for YEARS. It's amazing what doing things the right way can fix.
I still have occasional discomfort when I really go for it (usually a reminder that I'm reverting to the old ways), and my endurance isn't near where it used to be, but I can do a hell of a lot more now than I could a year and a half ago. I've rebuilt a solid range, and I can make it through a Rochut or five- with a much fuller, resonant, centered sound than I'd ever produced in the "before" times.
Take a lesson with Doug, you won't regret it.
Paul Gilles
Aerospace Engineer & Trombone Player
Aerospace Engineer & Trombone Player
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Thanks for responding. I wish you well with your continued recovery. It must be frustrating for you. My situation is considerably different. I was playing only 45-60 minutes per day, and at a very high level (playing very challenging repertoire, with good resonant tone, free of artifact), without being much challenged by it in terms of effort.
I had little or no pressure marks on my lips (what little there is is gone in mere minutes), and no sense of fatigue, let alone pain. I knew I was getting tired only when, much to my surprise, on occasion I missed a jump from something low to D above high Bb (Schumann), and had to think about the approach; something I don't normally need to do.
I wasn't a developing player in any sense, although now I can barely control my play at all. In fact, I can still do it all, I just can't control it. Its almost like my embouchure is physically drunk! There is no lack of strength, just a lack of willingness to obey. It goes there eventually, but not with out a concerted 'intendedness' on my part.
That is not, I suggest, a component of any capable players experience. At some point of competency, playing and the coordination of skills and physical requirements necessary to it become autonomic and natural. That is what is gone! I had the tools and technique I needed to do anything, and now I can't reliably do anything 'when' I want to.
I made a recording I could use to propose and frame how much things have gone wrong, but have realized that its trapped on a dedicated 'Pro Tools" laptop with both a failed operating system that needs to be reinstalled, and a failed power supply that was taken out by a power surge. I wonder if I was taken out by a similar surge.
I had little or no pressure marks on my lips (what little there is is gone in mere minutes), and no sense of fatigue, let alone pain. I knew I was getting tired only when, much to my surprise, on occasion I missed a jump from something low to D above high Bb (Schumann), and had to think about the approach; something I don't normally need to do.
I wasn't a developing player in any sense, although now I can barely control my play at all. In fact, I can still do it all, I just can't control it. Its almost like my embouchure is physically drunk! There is no lack of strength, just a lack of willingness to obey. It goes there eventually, but not with out a concerted 'intendedness' on my part.
That is not, I suggest, a component of any capable players experience. At some point of competency, playing and the coordination of skills and physical requirements necessary to it become autonomic and natural. That is what is gone! I had the tools and technique I needed to do anything, and now I can't reliably do anything 'when' I want to.
I made a recording I could use to propose and frame how much things have gone wrong, but have realized that its trapped on a dedicated 'Pro Tools" laptop with both a failed operating system that needs to be reinstalled, and a failed power supply that was taken out by a power surge. I wonder if I was taken out by a similar surge.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Just for reference: I am (hope to again) playing classical style on a small tenor trombone to a purpose: to recover the lost 'Helden' quality of the trombone's historical tonal signature, and propose an improved future technique and facility to propel the trombone into more...virtuosic is not the right word...'musically adroit' modes of play, wherein the its voice is no longer...limited, embarrassed, dependent upon excuse of its mechanics to win musical appreciation.
I use a mouthpiece suitable to the instrument and that is similar to a 7C, but with a much larger throat, and no cylindrical aperture. As I think of it, in a sense, this is 'already' a Doug Elliot problem, in the sense that the Williams trombone I am happily and successfully using for this discovery was originally Doug's! So, by misappropriation of logic, this is probably Doug's fault by association. LOL! It seems only fitting that he be involved in its clean-up.
I use a mouthpiece suitable to the instrument and that is similar to a 7C, but with a much larger throat, and no cylindrical aperture. As I think of it, in a sense, this is 'already' a Doug Elliot problem, in the sense that the Williams trombone I am happily and successfully using for this discovery was originally Doug's! So, by misappropriation of logic, this is probably Doug's fault by association. LOL! It seems only fitting that he be involved in its clean-up.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
CORRECTION! I have just finished playing in front of a mirror, and realized more accurately that air is not leaking from the actual corners as I had carelessly described it, but rather from the region of the lips outside of the rim, but abutting or adjoining it.
That being the case, I'm wondering if my efforts to play with what may turn out to be 'insufficient' pressure (is that even a thing?) has allowed, invited, caused, the iris of my embouchure to elongate (widen) for lacking a described (by relation to rim) end, to the point that it has escaped the confines of what is a fairly narrow rim. Thoughts?
Because my bodies neuromuscular memory remembers playing on a large bore symphonic instrument with a large mouthpiece, it had crossed my mind that I may 'input' too much energy for this a smaller set-up; which facilitates all aspects of play except volume. Those of you with experience at doubling might have some insights. Please share!
That being the case, I'm wondering if my efforts to play with what may turn out to be 'insufficient' pressure (is that even a thing?) has allowed, invited, caused, the iris of my embouchure to elongate (widen) for lacking a described (by relation to rim) end, to the point that it has escaped the confines of what is a fairly narrow rim. Thoughts?
Because my bodies neuromuscular memory remembers playing on a large bore symphonic instrument with a large mouthpiece, it had crossed my mind that I may 'input' too much energy for this a smaller set-up; which facilitates all aspects of play except volume. Those of you with experience at doubling might have some insights. Please share!
- Burgerbob
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Get a lesson with Doug.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Have a lesson with Doug
- Wilktone
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
There's really now way to say what's going on without watching you play. If you're able to post video of your chops while playing I'm happy to take a look. Sometimes I can spot something helpful that way. Having Doug check out your chops in a video lesson would be most likely to get good results than me scoping things out on the quick, though.
Again, if you can post or send video of your embouchure I'll take a look and let you know what I see.
Dave
Issues can happen, even with fine players. I've had my share of issues too, which sent me to Doug back in 1997 for the first time. More recently I got his help to work on a correction that's been plaguing me for years, even though I knew what I was doing.I was playing only 45-60 minutes per day, and at a very high level (playing very challenging repertoire, with good resonant tone, free of artifact), without being much challenged by it in terms of effort.
Again, if you can post or send video of your embouchure I'll take a look and let you know what I see.
Dave
- Doug Elliott
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Insufficient pressure is definitely a thing, but without seeing you play I'm not going to make that assumption or anything else.tskeldon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:15 pm That being the case, I'm wondering if my efforts to play with what may turn out to be 'insufficient' pressure (is that even a thing?) has allowed, invited, caused, the iris of my embouchure to elongate (widen) for lacking a described (by relation to rim) end, to the point that it has escaped the confines of what is a fairly narrow rim. Thoughts?"
And thinking of the embouchure as an iris is not necessarily a good model.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
I'm not convinced that you understand the magnitude of your issue. This is not going to get better on its own.
Paul Gilles
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Thank you all! I do understand the magnitude of my issue both as it presents in my play, and in my general constitution, though I suspect you do not. That being the case, while being able to play well would be nice (playing after an amateur fashion would not), playing is not central to my happiness.
Regardless, it is time to buy a new computer to service a Zoom/Teams style on-line conference platform such as would enable a consultation with Doug. It is just a cosmic misalignment that my phone (a tiny iPhone 6SE) is also out of commission at the same time as my laptop. As I do not practice social media, so this is not normally a hardship.
P.S. I just played, and nothing has changed, nor did I expect it to, though I am additionally starting to lose facility as a result of a lack of practice, in addition to whatever else may be troubling my play.
Regardless, it is time to buy a new computer to service a Zoom/Teams style on-line conference platform such as would enable a consultation with Doug. It is just a cosmic misalignment that my phone (a tiny iPhone 6SE) is also out of commission at the same time as my laptop. As I do not practice social media, so this is not normally a hardship.
P.S. I just played, and nothing has changed, nor did I expect it to, though I am additionally starting to lose facility as a result of a lack of practice, in addition to whatever else may be troubling my play.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
I'm beginning to think somebody got lost on the way to the trumpet forum.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Hello.
I don't understand. Are you trying to be funny; are you accusing me of trolling; or, do you know this condition to more frequently plague trumpet players? That possibly being the case I will certainly explore that option too. This is most certainly not a cause for humor, though some may take delight in it. Thank-you!
Tim
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Hi Doug!Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:34 pmInsufficient pressure is definitely a thing, but without seeing you play I'm not going to make that assumption or anything else.tskeldon wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:15 pm That being the case, I'm wondering if my efforts to play with what may turn out to be 'insufficient' pressure (is that even a thing?) has allowed, invited, caused, the iris of my embouchure to elongate (widen) for lacking a described (by relation to rim) end, to the point that it has escaped the confines of what is a fairly narrow rim. Thoughts?"
And thinking of the embouchure as an iris is not necessarily a good model.
Don't worry, I don't think of the embouchure as an iris, that was just a device for directing shared mindedness. In fact I don't think of the embouchure at all, as I've never had to, and maybe that's part of my future failing. I am however, by nature and vocation possessed of strong critical faculties, which I am using to explore and define my situation.
Tim
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
You have stated that you're not interested in fixing it, you just want to talk about it. Hence, the other comment about trumpet forums.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
No, I said only that playing wasn't central to the thesis of my life; as I hope would be the case for any healthy individual, with foreign interests, who is not required to perform for a living.Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:29 am You have stated that you're not interested in fixing it, you just want to talk about it. Hence, the other comment about trumpet forums.
I did however ask specifically for those individuals to post who had or were suffering similar conditional symptoms, so I am first gladdened and then saddened that none persist, describing then my fate!
My experience of trumpet players and their forums is that they were willing to 'talk' about matters of pedagogy decades before trombonists 'decided' to walk musically upright. Evolution is present everywhere here now.
The tenets of my eventual ambition and aspirations for this instrument were forged decades ago (albeit it divorced from any declared musical want or invitation to it). Modern license may still prove it...unpopular.
However, despite my enthusiasm for the trombone, and what I had hoped to prove to be its commonly under-realized' lyrical potential, it is reasonable to assume that I might find greater purchase on a trumpet forum.
If the neurologist has anything interesting to say I will post that as relevant 'talk'. Otherwise, I will simply adopt a course as dictated by my own musical and analytical competency, until the outcome seems indelibly writ.
Thanks to everyone who posted!
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
So you don't want to play again...?
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Neurologists know nothing about brass playing.
A diagnosis of FD serves one purpose : Disability.
A diagnosis of FD serves one purpose : Disability.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
I, too, am blessed/cursed by a mind that tends towards analysis and—unfortunately—anxiety. One thing I learned in my late teens-early twenties was that too much analysis and gathering too much information about pedagogy can be detrimental to one’s playing. In fact, talking too much about it and not actually playing correctly contribute to the feeling that “something is not right.” Self-diagnosis is rarely accurate.
So, from one former sufferer of analysis-by-paralysis, and who spent too much time thinking about playing rather than playing... I would again suggest a lesson with a qualified professional. Doug Elliott has offered his services here. He’s very good, and there are numerous people here on TC (and elsewhere) who can attest to his ability to diagnose and recommend a course of treatment.
Kenneth Biggs
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I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Sometimes i wonder what they do know.Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:36 am Neurologists know nothing about brass playing.
A diagnosis of FD serves one purpose : Disability.
My primary care referred me to one last visit, I'm having some memory issues and a little involuntary mouth movement. The neurologist did a bunch of expensive tests and told me I didn't have dementia. Yeah, I'd figured that part out on my own. Then he wanted me to to come back for a followup. If you've already told me you can't help me, why do you think I'm going to pay for another appointment?
That said, it was good to have an MRI and rule out anything serious, I guess.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
I just wanted to reiterate some things I said earlier.
Without watching you play, it's not possible to say with any certainty what you're doing, but there's a fair chance that it's something similar. It seemed to "work" for you for a while, so you're probably inclined to feel that it's the correct thing for you to do. Or possibly it's something that you're not even aware that you're doing (or not doing).
Hit me up with a PM or email if you'd like me to watch you play and give you my free advice. Hit up Doug if you want a more serious lesson. Or do both and see if our suggestions jive.
Dave
To be clear, I'm not asking you to pay me for a lesson. I'm willing to check out your chops out of professional curiosity.Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:45 am I have an educated guess as to what might be going on, but I'd have to see how you're playing, tskeldon. If my guess is right, it would further take some careful experimentation to figure out what you should be doing to make your corrections. I'm happy to do watch a video of your playing or meet with you via Zoom to give you my thoughts, but if you have the chance to do this with Doug Elliott he has more experience with this than me.
I'm not a medical doctor, so I can't diagnose or treat a medical condition. However, I should be able to spot issues in your embouchure form and at least describe the direction you want to go. Actually making the corrections can take a lot of time and effort, particularly the longer you've been playing in a way that isn't correct. As I discuss in the thread I linked to in the quote above, I had been playing for years in a way that had been "working," but eventually started causing troubles that I needed to fix. I got into that situation because what I was doing helped, to a degree, but everything I was doing was too far towards my extreme upper register which finally started inhibiting my playing in my "normal" range.Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:25 pmIssues can happen, even with fine players. I've had my share of issues too, which sent me to Doug back in 1997 for the first time. More recently I got his help to work on a correction that's been plaguing me for years, even though I knew what I was doing.I was playing only 45-60 minutes per day, and at a very high level (playing very challenging repertoire, with good resonant tone, free of artifact), without being much challenged by it in terms of effort.
Again, if you can post or send video of your embouchure I'll take a look and let you know what I see.
Dave
Without watching you play, it's not possible to say with any certainty what you're doing, but there's a fair chance that it's something similar. It seemed to "work" for you for a while, so you're probably inclined to feel that it's the correct thing for you to do. Or possibly it's something that you're not even aware that you're doing (or not doing).
Hit me up with a PM or email if you'd like me to watch you play and give you my free advice. Hit up Doug if you want a more serious lesson. Or do both and see if our suggestions jive.
Dave
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
If I understand the science correctly - and, granted, that's a big "if" - the diagnosis of "task-specific focal dystonia" is a very technical way of saying "we don't see anything wrong with you in any measurable way, but you're clearly having trouble playing, so good luck figuring it out, because we have no idea".Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:36 am Neurologists know nothing about brass playing.
A diagnosis of FD serves one purpose : Disability.
(I'd be happy to be corrected on this point, if I'm wrong.)
Paul T.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
That is exactly correct.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Hi everyone,
Thank-you for your continued support, and thank-you David for clarifying your experience. In my case I wasn't pursuing the extreme upper register, as I have always had that facility. Other than playing the Alan Kaplan MMO ballads, I don't ever persist in the high register, I simply move up into it as the music requires without any accommodation of embouchure, as is testified to by the speed and facility with which I can leave and return.
I haven't played now for yet another 3 week term, as I am waiting for my appointment with the neurologist. It is therefore relevant that I am in Canada, and that it is not uncommon to wait 6 months or more to get in to see a specialist even if you are 'connected'; even if you are dying! That is the true state of 'free' Canadian healthcare.
After that I will likely register my public embarrassment by taking people up on their kind offer of diagnostic.
I think PaulT is correct; though attempts have been made to tie it to Parkinson's. I have read what there is, and there isn't much hope it seems except to avoid the practice that proves the condition! That reminds me of a less than 'super' hero character I once saw in a movie that had the power of invisibility, so long as no one was looking at him. My dysphonia will go away then as long as I never check to see if it is still there.
So, Its a case of the 'emperor has no clothes', except that in this case 'the clothes have no emperor'. Nevertheless, I will report out...likely just before I post my instruments for sale. Stay tuned. Otherwise, this is just one of many catastrophic equipment failures I have experienced this year. Fortunately, however, this is the only organic one, and its prognosis is less than an inconvenience.
Tim
P.S. So far I have been unable to recover the on-board library of corrupted wave files taken out by a catastrophic failure of Windows 10, which also took out the modelling software used by my Antelope Audio Zen interfaces and Edge Duo and Verge modelling mics to prove the evolution of my performance thesis on the use of extreme alternate positions and natural slurs to defeat unmusical 'trombonisms' without sacrifice of tone. Should have used a 'cloud'.
Thank-you for your continued support, and thank-you David for clarifying your experience. In my case I wasn't pursuing the extreme upper register, as I have always had that facility. Other than playing the Alan Kaplan MMO ballads, I don't ever persist in the high register, I simply move up into it as the music requires without any accommodation of embouchure, as is testified to by the speed and facility with which I can leave and return.
I haven't played now for yet another 3 week term, as I am waiting for my appointment with the neurologist. It is therefore relevant that I am in Canada, and that it is not uncommon to wait 6 months or more to get in to see a specialist even if you are 'connected'; even if you are dying! That is the true state of 'free' Canadian healthcare.
After that I will likely register my public embarrassment by taking people up on their kind offer of diagnostic.
I think PaulT is correct; though attempts have been made to tie it to Parkinson's. I have read what there is, and there isn't much hope it seems except to avoid the practice that proves the condition! That reminds me of a less than 'super' hero character I once saw in a movie that had the power of invisibility, so long as no one was looking at him. My dysphonia will go away then as long as I never check to see if it is still there.
So, Its a case of the 'emperor has no clothes', except that in this case 'the clothes have no emperor'. Nevertheless, I will report out...likely just before I post my instruments for sale. Stay tuned. Otherwise, this is just one of many catastrophic equipment failures I have experienced this year. Fortunately, however, this is the only organic one, and its prognosis is less than an inconvenience.
Tim
P.S. So far I have been unable to recover the on-board library of corrupted wave files taken out by a catastrophic failure of Windows 10, which also took out the modelling software used by my Antelope Audio Zen interfaces and Edge Duo and Verge modelling mics to prove the evolution of my performance thesis on the use of extreme alternate positions and natural slurs to defeat unmusical 'trombonisms' without sacrifice of tone. Should have used a 'cloud'.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
That's not my impression, from the reading I've done. This is discussed a fair amount on a number of musical forums as well as athletic ones. Haney wrote a really interesting book on his experiences with something similar in golf.
From what I read, there is a camp that assigns the various dystonias to a neurological impairment, and another camp that is skeptical that this is true more than rarely if ever. But the treatment is exactly the same from either side - to relearn the activity in a completely different manner. (and hopefully a more mechanically correct manner)
There are a fair number of success stories so the idea there is no hope except avoidance doesn't seem right.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Tim, I doubt that my situation directly relates to you. My embouchure type is uncommon and the sort of things that I need to do are different from what the majority of players want to do. That said, one point I don't think I made clearly enough is that the range where I was running into trouble wasn't really my upper register, but the cause of the issue was mainly because I was too far in the direction of my upper register at that point.tskeldon wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:59 am Thank-you for your continued support, and thank-you David for clarifying your experience. In my case I wasn't pursuing the extreme upper register, as I have always had that facility. Other than playing the Alan Kaplan MMO ballads, I don't ever persist in the high register, I simply move up into it as the music requires without any accommodation of embouchure, as is testified to by the speed and facility with which I can leave and return.
My offer to check out your embouchure on Zoom or video still stands. I promise you'll get your money's worth (free advice).
Dave
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Yes, share. We don't all have expertise, but we certainly all will have an opinion. Pix or it didn't happen!
I am also on a disc golf forum, and constantly working to improve my unathletic swing. Here there is a subforum where everyone posts video of their form, and anyone can comment. But it's immediately obvious who the heavy hitters are, the people who know biomechanics and can post relevant videos for improvement. The point is it's a safe place to share, partly because other noobs do too, and it's the way we improve.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
For sure you should have a lesson with Doug. But I’d like to mention something no one has mentioned: posture. I’m just guessing: you may be standing with your head a bit forward, which would put extra pressure on your embouchure and distort your proprioception. See if you can check that out - maybe a physical therapist or massage therapist could watch you play - and if a postural correction doesn’t help. If it helps, great, and if it doesn’t, you didn’t have to spend a long time or a lot of money to rule it out. Alexander Technique might be something to look into, too.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Is this not a late return to the creation of the "APGTMPS" technical volume? Don't tease me!tskeldon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:22 am Thanks Doug! I'm less concerned with recovery than I am with documenting my experience to profit others who actually make their living playing. This condition would prove a horrible fate for an individual who is vocationally, emotionally, psychologically, and financially immersed and invested in music making.
For me, taking up playing again was just a way to explore what I suspected was the unrealized potential of the instrument, and I guess, by extension, evidence of occult or dormant talent that had been left unrealized in me (in a previous life) for having pursued proficiency by subscription to paradigms of play that I didn't resonate with.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Do you mean "Pursuing Proficiency by Subscriptions to Paradigms of Play"? Because that would be a killer title... ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
This !Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:45 am A diagnosis of focal task-specific dystonia should only be given by a specialist. No ethical medical professional would even offer a prognosis without first seeing the patient either. I would not recommend that you get a medical diagnosis from a musician over the internet (or even from a musician in person). If you have medical concerns visit your general practitioner and get a referral to a neurologist.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Oh it's the other technical volume. You right, you right
I just hope it's written in plain English, as such things are not often wont to do. I'm not intelligent enough to understand even short, elegant sentences like:
So far I have been unable to recover the on-board library of corrupted wave files taken out by a catastrophic failure of Windows 10, which also took out the modelling software used by my Antelope Audio Zen interfaces and Edge Duo and Verge modelling mics to prove the evolution of my performance thesis on the use of extreme alternate positions and natural slurs to defeat unmusical 'trombonisms' without sacrifice of tone.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Too droll.
Trombone players...you are too subscribedly of a type! Another round of flat domestic beer for the trombonists in the back row, on my tab! It never gets old. Anyway, the attempt at levity not withstanding, I report that I have made some inroads with my analysis of my condition, despite not yet having had an audience with a neurologist.
I have recently come across a video with Marty Hackelman, that describes more resonantly a condition that mirrors mine. I was fortunate enough to have played with Marty and very much admired his playing, and respect his input on a matter proximate to his own experience.
Marty is a naturally and abundantly talented french horn player, who after long stints with both Canadian and Empire Brass quintets, returned to orchestral play as the Principal Horn with the National Symphony in DC. Anyway, he describes the condition as I have experienced it, but as monitored by his greater talent.
The onset of my condition started with with particualr and express facility and ease on the instrument, having lost altogether the need to warm-up; though I persisted for a time until I realized that it was no longer necessary. My embouchure always felt strong, responsive, supple and flexable, while growing increasingly noisy.
But, I think that the pursuit of the invitation of that 'ease' of play is the rabbit hole one must not venture down. Of late I have made minor adjustments to my embouchure that returns some of the lost facility without costing me in return. Those changes amount to correcting what was incorrectly reasoned to be 'unneccesary' discipline.
By reinvoking 'constant' tension in the set of my embouchure (which had been eliminated as being extraneous to need) I have recovered some of my facility in middle and lower register; which is where I was having problems getting notes to speak.
The trade off is that the re-introduction of constant muscle intonement is a more tiring mode of play, if however apparently necessary. It will be interesting to see if by persisting with this intended tension, I develop or reaqaint myself with hithertoo accounted 'lost' strength.
Is this contrived 'tightness' the agency that we all started with when first forming an embouchure? I don't remember. Maybe it's 'joker' like inellegance just becomes normal, unaccounted and to a purpose, such that we lose consciousness of its intendness. It is, it seems, the price we must pay to play!
Trombone players...you are too subscribedly of a type! Another round of flat domestic beer for the trombonists in the back row, on my tab! It never gets old. Anyway, the attempt at levity not withstanding, I report that I have made some inroads with my analysis of my condition, despite not yet having had an audience with a neurologist.
I have recently come across a video with Marty Hackelman, that describes more resonantly a condition that mirrors mine. I was fortunate enough to have played with Marty and very much admired his playing, and respect his input on a matter proximate to his own experience.
Marty is a naturally and abundantly talented french horn player, who after long stints with both Canadian and Empire Brass quintets, returned to orchestral play as the Principal Horn with the National Symphony in DC. Anyway, he describes the condition as I have experienced it, but as monitored by his greater talent.
The onset of my condition started with with particualr and express facility and ease on the instrument, having lost altogether the need to warm-up; though I persisted for a time until I realized that it was no longer necessary. My embouchure always felt strong, responsive, supple and flexable, while growing increasingly noisy.
But, I think that the pursuit of the invitation of that 'ease' of play is the rabbit hole one must not venture down. Of late I have made minor adjustments to my embouchure that returns some of the lost facility without costing me in return. Those changes amount to correcting what was incorrectly reasoned to be 'unneccesary' discipline.
By reinvoking 'constant' tension in the set of my embouchure (which had been eliminated as being extraneous to need) I have recovered some of my facility in middle and lower register; which is where I was having problems getting notes to speak.
The trade off is that the re-introduction of constant muscle intonement is a more tiring mode of play, if however apparently necessary. It will be interesting to see if by persisting with this intended tension, I develop or reaqaint myself with hithertoo accounted 'lost' strength.
Is this contrived 'tightness' the agency that we all started with when first forming an embouchure? I don't remember. Maybe it's 'joker' like inellegance just becomes normal, unaccounted and to a purpose, such that we lose consciousness of its intendness. It is, it seems, the price we must pay to play!
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Glad to hear that you're making some progress.
If I understand what you're describing correctly, you're firming up your embouchure formation more than you used to? Often times we want playing to feel "effortless" and can play with our embouchure formation too loose. I think that if you give it some time endurance should return, assuming that you're on the right track. Without being able to see and hear you play I'm only guessing.
Dave
If I understand what you're describing correctly, you're firming up your embouchure formation more than you used to? Often times we want playing to feel "effortless" and can play with our embouchure formation too loose. I think that if you give it some time endurance should return, assuming that you're on the right track. Without being able to see and hear you play I'm only guessing.
Dave
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
My reading is the same:
If your problems were caused by an embouchure that was too "flabby" or "loose", you're doing the right thing by firming it up. Muscles need to be used properly, to give support for the physical activity you're engaging in. Do it enough, and you grow stronger and more efficient; eventually it can start to feel "effortless", when in reality it's just developing strength, consistency, and efficiency.
Don't fall for the "brass playing shouldn't involve any effort, pressure, or tension" dogma; I've seen it ruin more than a few players. Removing *unnecessary* tension is a definite benefit; but there is also tension and effort that is absolutely necessary - take that away, and you can start compensating in other ways, eventually tearing down your playing completely.
If your problems were caused by an embouchure that was too "flabby" or "loose", you're doing the right thing by firming it up. Muscles need to be used properly, to give support for the physical activity you're engaging in. Do it enough, and you grow stronger and more efficient; eventually it can start to feel "effortless", when in reality it's just developing strength, consistency, and efficiency.
Don't fall for the "brass playing shouldn't involve any effort, pressure, or tension" dogma; I've seen it ruin more than a few players. Removing *unnecessary* tension is a definite benefit; but there is also tension and effort that is absolutely necessary - take that away, and you can start compensating in other ways, eventually tearing down your playing completely.
Paul T.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Sounds like aging.
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Re: Help! Has this happened to anyone else!
Had something similar occur 30 years ago, only affecting one side of my upper lip. Turned out to be Bell's Palsy. After being a professionaly bass trombone player for 25 years at the time, I switched over to Double Bass/Bass Guitar. I occasionally attempt to pick up my horn again, but some of the issues remain.
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