No love for valve 'bones?

[Ozzlefinch]

OK, I know that valve bones are a rarity nowadays, having peaked in popularity around 1910 or so. Since then, the 3 valve has been gasping for breath in jazz circles and a few marching bands, but it's a rare day when anyone sees it being played. In fact, I just dropped one of mine off for service and the 80 year old tech said that he had never seen one in his shop...ever.

I play a 4 valve rotor and I absolutely love it, owning several. I also play a regular slide bone as well. Now taking into consideration that many operas and classical works were written for a valve, why aren't they used these days for performance? From my perspective behind the mouthpiece I have only good things to say (except for the nightmarish high cost).

Just casually surfing the net shows me that most players have nothing good to say about the valve bone. Some go so far as to call it straight out evil.

So what says the hive mind here? Any thoughts or experiences about this topic?

[hyperbolica]

You see a lot of the very old 4v rotaries from Germany on ebay. And I think pistons are alive and well in Latin America and parts of Europe. In the US marching valve bones (Flugabone) is enjoying some popularity. Cimbasso is popular in movie music, but that's still a pretty small world.

Valve bones tend to be very small bore. They'd be more popular if they were made in larger sizes. 508-525 would be great instead of ~485. And of course they would need a better tuning mechanism. More advanced Tbone players get picky about intonation, and valves don't allow for that.

[BGuttman]

Rotary valve bones have a bad ergonomics problem. I tried an F bass similar to the Terezin trombone Ozzlefinch has and I couldn't find a comfortable way to hold the thing. I can't imagine trying to play it while holding the reins of a horse -- no easy way to hold it and play it with one hand.

[Ozzlefinch]

Rotary valve bones have a bad ergonomics problem. I tried an F bass similar to the Terezin trombone Ozzlefinch has and I couldn't find a comfortable way to hold the thing. I can't imagine trying to play it while holding the reins of a horse -- no easy way to hold it and play it with one hand.

No argument about the bad ergonomics. You would think that at some point that would have been addressed at the design level. I have one that has a nice curve strap for the hand and it helps a lot, but still leaves the fingers with awkward positioning. My other ones just kind of leave it up to the imagination as to how best to hold the thing. I have found that a center hold letting the valve block rest on the back of the hand is the most comfortable and natural for me.

Definitely not something I would want to hold onto in a playing position for extended periods. I have to take frequent breaks when practicing at home (although that's probably not a bad thing) but I haven't noticed it being that bad in performances.

[ithinknot]

I tried a whole bunch of pre-war rotaries in a music shop in Prague back in my mid-teens. Most stank (figuratively and literally) but there was one old 4v F bass Červený that made the most delightful noise I'd ever heard from a trombone at that point. Just a fabulously warm and delicate baritone. They all seemed to precede the invention of intonation or ergonomics, but that sound has stuck with me.

The regional histories of how they came in and out of European orchestral favor are reasonably documented. Nowadays, in areas with no ongoing tradition of use, I can understand how it's a hard sell; the trombonists have been actively discouraged from lipping tuning from day one, and the instruments that reward that technique (mainstream conical low brass) have more gigs/niches and have been subject to more recent design attention. But that's no reason not to make your own fun.

How did you get involved with them?

[Ozzlefinch]

I have been playing the standard slide trombone since 1979 with a short foray into bass in high school and a bit of baritone in the drum and bugle corp in college. Other than that, a valve bone has never been on my radar. About 4 years ago I was in Germany and saw one in a music shop. I couldn't stop thinking about how cool it looked in a retro/steampunk kind of way. I then decided to give it a try because why not? That was about the same time I realized that music should be fun, and that you can both be a serious musician and a fun one at the same time. So I took the plunge and bought it.

I instantly fell in love with it. I can't really explain it better than that. Perhaps I was getting bored with the slide and needed something to spice things up, I can't really say. In any event, I started playing it for Christmas and Easter pageants along with the slide. Also used it for some performances through the local school system as part of me being on the board for the city arts commission. Turns out it was very popular with the audience as well. Yes, maybe it's a heresy, but your presentation to the audience is also important - they want to see some flash and bling along with the music and a hundred year old rotor valve garland bell 'bone has that presentation in spades.

It definitely doesn't play like a slide trombone, nor a baritone or other valve instrument in that voicing range. But if you play it accordingly with a different approach to the embouchure, then it works very well. It's a situation in which you have to work with the instrument instead of trying to force it to comply with you. For example, I don't valve a C with 1-3 but always (mostly always) with 4. This gives a much better intonation. The 4th valve is much like the F attachment on a slide trombone and if used to it's full advantage it gives a huge amount of flexibility and options.

I guess that about sums it up. Not a very interesting story, sorry.

[BrassedOn]

Most people who play valve trombones just like them and buy and play them and accept any eccentricity or perceived limitation without comment, not dishing on the internet about them. Maybe for opera works, you need a good one, and a trombone section that agrees to play on valves. And if trying to be ‘authentic’, the vintage style smaller bore or noisy old style rotary valve mechs are part of the charm.

As for the repair person, maybe he hasn’t seen one for a while, and likely not a rotary valve version, but that’s a statistic based on a sample n=1. My repairperson in her 20s saw at least three last year, and that was just mine!

Some would like (and might sound like they are moaning for) a larger bore or a 4th valve, but unless you’re playing opera scored for such instruments, for many trombonist the typical King Conn Getzen Yamaha will get it done for Jazz, Banda, or occasional classical application or whatever. My old small bore piston Getzen was clear as a bell and smooth on the runs. But ‘out there’, it’s no universal bash-fest on the valve bone. Jazzers get by with the current offerings. If one is a full time employed classical-opera player, one is already a minority of a minority, so probably that person bit the bullet and payed up to have a horn rehabbed to play.

And with insufficient demand to warrant mass production to increase availability and bring down price, availability and playability won’t change, save for custom horns. If you play for the Met, you or the orchestral probably make the investment in Cimbassi. If you’re jobbing regional opera player, you make due with a slide or the valve bone you got, many in the audience are no wiser, and the section is probably playing in tune one slide albeit without the nice sound the runs might have on valves.

For the more commercial-jazz-pop player, the last decade has seen a uptick in King Conn Blessing Olds compact ‘flugabone’ marching valve trombone style horn, which is basically the same but less free blowing than your straight Vbones because of the bends, because they’re more compact and mic friendly for the Vbone, tuba and euph players who jazz. Also, for me, the .508 bore Blessing was an adequate poor man’s bass trumpet. I’m long retired from classical playing, but I know there is always an ebb and flow of fashion in the scene for different sounds and horns, but today I’m not sure having a killer valve trombone for opera would make the list for my priorities, let alone having me cite ‘evil’ bones online.

If Dvorak, Verdi or Janacek were alive and composing today….foremost, no one would be talking to them about writing for valve trombone, because the story is Verdi is alive and well and writing music at 209 years old! Second, they’d be writing for today’s instruments, halls, and Sonic expectations for the trombone. And probably writing from their chateaux and posting on YouTube and Spotify. What were we talking about?

For novelty or fun, sure it was nice to have a double bell euphonium, helicon, German style baryton, tea-chest bass, stumpfiddle, or valve trombone, having it or not was no deal dealbreaker on music, audience engagement, or fun.

[Ozzlefinch]

Thank you for your input, BrassedOn, you have given me a lot to think about. Part of my interest in the trombone and music in general is the history of the instruments, the design tech and practical application in compositions, the cultural movements and situations in which they were used/invented and so forth. I am still a newcomer to the world of valve trombone, especially the more exotic rotor valve. My circle of influence and knowledge is painfully small, what with me being just a random nobody part time hobbyist in the music world. I definitely want to learn more from experienced and skilled players who have actually used these kinds of horns and how all of that relates to the bigger picture.

I do have to make it very clear that I am interested in the fun factor at this point. I am not a professional playing in a symphony, in which case that is a completely different animal when it comes to horn selection. I do small ensemble jam sessions on Saturday at the local piano store (coffee shop open mic kind of thing), the aforementioned Christmas and Easter pageants, and occasionally help out with a student workshop or quartet at the local public school. Nothing that I would consider "influential" - after all, my playing skills are solidly average at best.

I slightly disagree that Verdi would be writing music for slide trombone if he were alive today: I think he would be writing metal songs with sick guitar shreds....

[Matt K]

I have a valve section for my 3BF bell that is really fun to play. One thing that I think would dramatically help ergonomics is if it were setup like a cimbasso. I'm tempted to see if I can have that done as, in my imagination, that would put the valves approximately where they would be in a bellfront baritone which I find to be pretty comfortable, and it would mean I wouldn't have to hold much weight. But I would have to find someone who can bend both the mouthpiece leadipe and the pipe that leads to the tenon... and I'm not sure about if that would potentially damage it. And I'm also trying to weigh the benefit of being able to swap the leadpipe out for something else... if I did that, I don't think there would be much room for a leadpipe, let alone one that is 8" long.

[timothy42b]

Plus you'd have to buy a new case.

[Reedman1]

You might check out valvetrombonesrus.com.

[Matt K]

Plus you'd have to buy a new case.

True! Although I’ve been sticking it in a protec gig bag that I have and it works surprisingly well. I think it actually might fit still but it would be oriented quite oddly.

[dukesboneman]

I`ve always had a Valve trombone. Ever since hearing Bob Brookmeyer, I was hooked.
When you hear someone that REALLY knows how to play one it`s a beautiful instrument.
I had the opportunity to hear, Brookmeyer live a couple times as well as Ashley Alexander, Rob McConnell
2 years ago, a gentleman from Brazil visited us here in Sarasota. Valve Trombonist Francois De Lima
Beautiful sound and sweet sol lines. He plays an older 3B Valve
Here he is

Mike Fahn -

In the `70`s Rock Band Lighthouse , Trombonist Larry Smith played a Cousnon valve Trombone.
he was the 1st real Valve player I`d ever seen live

During the Covid Lock down , with NO gigs, I ran across Valve Trombonist Barry Mosley out of LA


and of course Raul De Souza with the "Souzabone"

I`d say the instrument, while not widely used, it`s still there

[Elow]

Brookmeyer on gerry mulligans night lights album is all you need to convince anyone that valve trombone should be loved. He truly is amazing on that album

[BrassedOn]

I do have to make it very clear that I am interested in the fun factor at this point. I am not a professional playing in a symphony, in which case that is a completely different animal when it comes to horn selection. I do small ensemble jam sessions on Saturday at the local piano store (coffee shop open mic kind of thing), the aforementioned Christmas and Easter pageants, and occasionally help out with a student workshop or quartet at the local public school. Nothing that I would consider "influential" - after all, my playing skills are solidly average at best.

I understand, thanks. That’s why I say having double bells and helicons etc. they were right for the time, got some looks on the job, fun for the kinds when I did clinics. So yah go forth with novelty just for that. As far as the love, the Vbones have their place and players. I was using them in jazz contexts up to a year ago when I divested of the last of my low brass (tubas, Sousa, bass bone, classical bone etc…) all but my 3B slide tenor, and working mainly on electric and upright bass these days.

But my Blessing ‘flugabone’ was really the most handy for sitting in on jazz, and small enough to travel carry on. As a former Euphoniumist, the ‘flugabone’ thang, tho’ not the same sound, actually was convenient for that purpose.

I slightly disagree that Verdi would be writing music for slide trombone if he were alive today: I think he would be writing metal songs with sick guitar shreds....

Definitively shredding, I thought maybe synth and doing soundtracks for video games.