Shires Q Alessi running really sharp?

[TexasTBone]

Just bought a Shires Q Alessi tenor and I really like it, but it seems like the horn in general runs really sharp. I was surprised my main tuning slide is out about 1-1/4" and my F attachment tuning slide is out at least 1-1/2". I've never had to pull a tuning slide out that far on any horn I've ever played in 30 years.

Anyone had a similar experience? Is this a Shires quirk?

[harrisonreed]

Where is the Ab in relation to the bell with the slide pulled that far?

[Burgerbob]

What mouthpiece?

[TexasTBone]

What mouthpiece?

Hammond 12ML

[TexasTBone]

Where is the Ab in relation to the bell with the slide pulled that far?

It's about 2" behind the bell rim.

[Burgerbob]

Might be a bit of a different design than the horn was built for... Alessi plays a much larger rim, smaller throat, around the same depth. Could make a difference.

It would be interesting if you were pulled out farther on the Q than the 3047, though, because the Getzens are pretty short instruments.

[TexasTBone]

My only Getzen to compare is my 3062, and the slides are consistent with my prior horn experiences. Main is out 5/8"-3/4" and F is out maybe an inch (I'd measure, but it's in the shop). I'm playing a Hammond 19BL on that horn.

[Burgerbob]

My only Getzen to compare is my 3062, and the slides are consistent with my prior horn experiences. Main is out 5/8"-3/4" and F is out maybe an inch (I'd measure, but it's in the shop). I'm playing a Hammond 19BL on that horn.

Oops, misread that. The 3062s are pretty short too, the 19BL is pretty shallow for that horn.

May be worth trying a smaller throat mouthpiece with the Qalessi just for kicks, but I doubt that's the only factor.

[CalgaryTbone]

I tried one, along with an Edwards Alessi (not the new version) at a local music store this past week. I didn't bring a tuner, but the 2 horns both felt good, and the pitch was in a similar place on each. I didn't notice any pitch problem on either, and I had warmed up on my own horn at home before driving over there - I think I would have noticed if the pitch was high. I did notice the mouthpiece sits a bit further into the Shires.

I liked both horns - a lot of similarities, although I thought the Shires opened up a bit more in the mid-register, and the Edwards kept a nice center in that range. It would be a close call between the two. I'd love to try the new 396AR against the actual Shires (not Q series).

I wonder if there is an issue with the particular horn that you have. Also, maybe try the other leadpipes? It might make a difference, and is an easy thing to try.

Jim Scott

[TexasTBone]

I'm using the #2 leadpipe. I'll play around a little with the others.

[TexasTBone]

My Denis Wick 5ABL drops the pitch about 10 cents. I can drop another 5-7 cents with the #1 leadpipe.

@CalgaryTbone - Relative pitch aside, this horn is more in tune across partials than my other horns. I was kind of torn between the Getzen 3047, Shires Q30, and Q Alessi. The 3047 and Q30 felt a lot like the same horn to me. The Q Alessi felt much different, much more open, and took less effort to play.

[harrisonreed]

Where is the Ab in relation to the bell with the slide pulled that far?

It's about 2" behind the bell rim.

Like, towards G?

:O

[TexasTBone]

Like, towards G?

:O

Toward my face.

[harrisonreed]

Like, towards G?

:O

Toward my face.

That sounds like almost the exact distance that your tuning slide is pulled out, minus the half inch most people have the tuning slide pulled.

The alessi horn might be designed to have a long first position.

[TexasTBone]

I tend to cheat out first position about 1/2". I recently had a teacher who was trying to break me of that habit.

[SwissTbone]

I have my first position always out a little. How can you fine-tune your first position notes otherwise?

I never talked about that to my old teachers or to fellow trombonists. But observing them it seems to me most people do that.

[Doug Elliott]

My first position is at least an inch out, and I usually keep my tuning slide all the way in. Unless I'm outside on a hot day.

If a teacher is "trying to break you of that habit" I'd find a new teacher.

[harrisonreed]

I tend to cheat out first position about 1/2". I recently had a teacher who was trying to break me of that habit.

If it weren't for the fact that this is the only horn you have pulled that far, I'd say it was cut and dry. It's weird that it is only one horn. Otherwise this is the advice I would give:

I think the Ab being two inches in front of the bell, towards your face, and that being about the same length as how far the tuning slide is pulled, are related. Always tune your Ab to the bell, especially if that puts the tuning slide at 0 to .5" pulled -- the rest of the notes will sort themselves out. It's really arbitrary though. As long as you can play both a Bb and B natural on the Bb horn, your instrument is in tune regardless of where your main tuning slide or Ab is. The main handslide is your tuning slide, and playing long on that opens up lots of possibilities. So just push your tuning slide in all the way unless B natural falls off the end of your slide.

Bb should be off of the bumpers about the distance your tuning slide is pulled, not in a closed first position.

Conversely, on the F attachment, it will end up pulled even further out. Tune F to be in tune at the bumpers, or tune it flatter than that if you don't play low F in first.

Pushing your main tuning slide all the way in has other benefits, such as reducing the cylindrical length in the bell section. You should find that your horn plays better the shorter that length is

[TexasTBone]

My first position is at least an inch out, and I usually keep my tuning slide all the way in. Unless I'm outside on a hot day.

If a teacher is "trying to break you of that habit" I'd find a new teacher.

Already did. I also got tired of spending the first 40 minutes of a 50 minute lesson playing the same warm up every single time.

[WilliamLang]

i never understand these types of tuning slide questions - it's always felt to me that tuning slide should be moved/be different basically everyday. also the idea that a new trombone should be the same tuning slide length as a previous one? they're not tuned at the factory (though they are giant tuning slides)

[hornbuilder]

"They're not tuned at the factory".

Well, actually, they are. Or should be!

It is known that to play a certain pitch, a tube has to be a particular length. That is basic acoustics/physics. It is assumed that people that make instruments understand this fact. (There are certainly occasions where it appears as though the maker forgot that little detail in their design and manufacture, though)

But the player is also part of the system. Some people play higher on the pitch , and some play lower. "That" aspect is out of the manufacturers control!

[timothy42b]

But the player is also part of the system. Some people play higher on the pitch , and some play lower. "That" aspect is out of the manufacturers control!

Even if one plays in the center of the slot, I think maybe the mouth cavity affects pitch too. I'm not sure what the physics would be and maybe it's not even true, but some people think it matters.

[GabrielRice]

i never understand these types of tuning slide questions - it's always felt to me that tuning slide should be moved/be different basically everyday. also the idea that a new trombone should be the same tuning slide length as a previous one? they're not tuned at the factory (though they are giant tuning slides)

Interesting. My tuning slides live in the same place day to day unless I am playing with a group, or an organ or piano, tuned quite differently.



I know excellent trombone players whose tuning slides live as much as 2 inches out, and other excellent trombone players whose tuning slides live almost all the way in (as mine do). I have seen only the most general correlations between sizes of humans, and those correlations are not consistent.

[Kdanielsen]

i never understand these types of tuning slide questions - it's always felt to me that tuning slide should be moved/be different basically everyday. also the idea that a new trombone should be the same tuning slide length as a previous one? they're not tuned at the factory (though they are giant tuning slides)

Interesting. My tuning slides live in the same place day to day unless I am playing with a group, or an organ or piano, tuned quite differently.



I know excellent trombone players whose tuning slides live as much as 2 inches out, and other excellent trombone players whose tuning slides live almost all the way in (as mine do). I have seen only the most general correlations between sizes of humans, and those correlations are not consistent.

I don’t move mine much either.

I think it’s the temperature of the air in the horn, not the air in the room, that makes a difference. I saw some calculations that suggested the difference in pitch between 70 degree room air and 90 degree air from your lungs was about 30 cents.

For awhile I was going crazy trying to tune my horn. Id put it down to buzz for a few minutes, then pick it up and couldn’t figure out why I was so flat for 10 seconds or so. I saw the stuff above about air temperature and started filling my horn with warm air if it had been sitting for a few minutes and it solved the problem. Doesn’t make much difference if I’m in a cold room vs in the heat outside. As long as the air in my horn is the same temp (from my lungs), I can trust the tuning to be where I left it the last time I played.

Just my crackpot take on the situation. Im not a scientist.

Btw, before I figured this out my slide was almost all the way in. Life improved immensely when I realized what was going on. Now my tuning slide is roughly a 1/2 inch out and the horn feels much better.

[WilliamLang]

yeah, i just check my tuning after about 5 minutes of warm up. usually flutter tongue a middle Bb just a hair out of the first, then when i let the flutter go and hold the note steady, i check where that centers against a tuner. maybe my career just leads me to play in a lot of different halls and rooms on a regular basis? it's rare (until the pandemic) that I play in the same room even 3-4 days in a row.

[TexasTBone]

i never understand these types of tuning slide questions - it's always felt to me that tuning slide should be moved/be different basically everyday. also the idea that a new trombone should be the same tuning slide length as a previous one? they're not tuned at the factory (though they are giant tuning slides)

I'm not sure you understand what I'm asking here. I'm not assuming it will be the same as any other horn, but in 30 years of playing trombones, my tuning slides have always been very close to the same - Bach, Conn, Williams, Holton, Buescher, Benge, Getzen - all of them within 1/8"-1/4" of each other. This is the only trombone I've ever played that was so drastically different than every other horn, and I was curious if other people had experienced or heard of Shires horns having a significant variation in general tuning. That's all.

[WilliamLang]

Ok

[Basbasun]

There is no problem is it? You just have the tuning slide pulled a bit more. I think Shires made this to meet the problem of sometimes higher tuning standard in some orchestras. Like A 444 or higher. Many piano tuners in Sweden do tune pianos irritatingly sharp.

[Jameseuph642]

My Q series bass plays quite sharp. With the tuning slide pushed all the way in 1st position is in 2nd position. My main slide is pulled almost all the way out to get to A440. Other than that issue it plays great.

[Matt K]

Is it consistently sharp across partials or just in some? The tuning slides in Shires by default have a different taper that makes them have different tendencies in some partials. Or at least they used to on their main product line, unless you got an X tuning slide from them. I don’t remember which because at this point it’s muscle memory for me but if you’re tuning certain notes it might be sharper than you expect and an X tuning slide from them (their Bach taper) might help or solve the issue for you if you prefer that style of tuning

[TexasTBone]

Is it consistently sharp across partials or just in some? The tuning slides in Shires by default have a different taper that makes them have different tendencies in some partials. Or at least they used to on their main product line, unless you got an X tuning slide from them. I don’t remember which because at this point it’s muscle memory for me but if you’re tuning certain notes it might be sharper than you expect and an X tuning slide from them (their Bach taper) might help or solve the issue for you if you prefer that style of tuning

All the partials are dead-on with each other. In fact, it's more consistently in-tune across all partials than my other horns, which is fantastic.

[Matt K]

I may have missed it if you mentioned it but has another person played and verified the issues? If it isn’t you in some capacity I have two thoughts. The first is that you may have an obstruction somewhere… packing peanut maybe? No idea what else it could be but I’d contact shires or whoever you bought it from and see if they can troubleshoot… maybe something wonky with one of the parts. Typically that would make it flat though. I guess I can see why they’d make it default tunable to 442 or 444 (easier to make an instrument flatter than sharper!) given its a mass produced horn rather than their custom ones but it is funny to me that in the US the default wouldn’t be a touch flatter.

Actually, now that I type that I wonder if the have different tuning slides fit different regions and maybe you got a non US one or something on accident. A lot of places in the world tune sharper than 440

[harrisonreed]

One last try on my part to argue that perhaps the horn isn't running sharp, and that it might just a design choice on the part of Shires. It would be cool if someone who is good at math could run this through some number experiments, or shoot down my logic. Very nerdy stuff to follow, and I'd love to see if it can be improved or corrected. I apologize for the ridiculous length of this post. I did this more as a mental exercise for myself:

As some of the horn builders have already said here, the trombone can't really be made much longer or shorter intentionally without the instrument becoming unusable -- trombones are indeed "tuned at the factory", in two different ways, and you can pretty much guarantee that Shires has done the math and done both techniques to tune any of the instruments they offer.

The first way they do it is by giving you a minimum possible overall length first, and a maximum possible overall length that comes from that design choice. I think your problem is related to this first method of tuning at the factory. For minimum possible length, that is going to be the basic tuning of the instrument, let's say we want a Bb tuned to A-444 (at 22°C), who knows, pick one. Let's pick A-444, so that we can play in any foreseeable sharp orchestra and because we know it's easy to add extendable tubing length into the design but tough to get rid of it after the horn is built. So to play a Bb tuned at A-444 there is an exact length of tubing that physics says you need. The factory knows exactly what this length is, let's call it X, and that is your minimum target length for the horn, and you start your design there. So how do you do it? Well, what are the parts of the horn we have?

ISL - inner handslide tube length (starting from the bumpers), must be equal to or shorter than OSL. Can't be much longer than the human arm can reach.
OSL - outer slide length (must be at least as long as ISL but can be longer)
CBL - the distance from where the cork bumpers form one end of the ISL to where they hit the gooseneck or mouthpiece. This is usually somewhere inside the grip, not the total length of the cork barrel grip. Lot's of interesting things happen when you lengthen or shorten this bumper depth in the design, especially if you compensate with the ISL and OSL.
CrL - handslide crook length (you can think of this as the radius or width too)
GN - gooseneck length (we'll assume this includes the slide grip/tenon length)
TL - tuning leg length (for simplicity, we'll assume male and female lengths are the same on both gooseneck and bell ends)
TsL - Tuning slide length (you can think of this as the radius or width of the tuning crook too)
BL - bell length (here is one I'm not as sure of, since it is no longer part of the tube as it expands. We'll add it and assume the maker knows how the bell length works into the actual tube length. It might be that the bell stops having an effect on tube length around what the length of the gooseneck is, but I have no idea)

So the minimum length is:

X = 2(OSL) + 2(CBL) + CrL + GN + 2(TL) + TsL + BL

You will see that the inner tubes are ignored. If we play around with numbers using this equation, we will find that if we make OSL longer, in general the whole bell section must become shorter to compensate. You can only get so narrow in the crook length before you physically can't play the horn. Likewise the tuning slide crook width has a limited range to work with and is standardized for Shires. So as you make the handslide longer, some combination of the gooseneck, bell, and tuning legs must get shorter for your minimum length to still equal X. A design might strive for the shortest possible minimum length to allow for orchestras that tune to A-444 or to allow for slide vibrato on the Bb harmonic series.

What about maximum length? Let's call that Y. We might want the largest maximum total length to ensure that we can still play a B natural in 7th position. Here now, we don't choose anything, it's all just dictated by the design we already chose to get to our minimum length, so we have to depend on that choice:

Y = [2(ISL)+2(OSL)] +2(CBL) + CrL + GN + 4(TL) + TsL + BL

you might not want to consider pulling the tuning slide 100%, and you're not going to be moving it much while playing, so this might be better:

Y = [2(ISL)+2(OSL)] +2(CBL) + CrL + GN + 2(TL+pulled length) + TsL + BL

You can see here that the handslide tube length is cordoned off in brackets, just for clarity, and that our maximum slide length is dictated in a large way by our choice with the inner tubes. What's interesting here is that the maximum possible overall length mostly depends on how long you can get your ISL, OSL, and maybe TL in the design. The problem with trying to get that extra maximum length in the TL parameter is that you have no control over it once you've "tuned" -- it's sort of stuck there. Also, long tuning slide legs add cylindrical tubing to the bell taper, which messes with the partials on the horn. The problem with trying to get it by increasing the ISL is that if it's longer than about 30 inches, lots of people won't be able to use the full length of the slide. So you can add some of it to the OSL.

Let's try it, here is some numbers that seem pretty average to me:

105" = X = 2(26{OSL}) + 2(1{CBL}) + 8{CrL} + 7{GN} + 2(2.5{TL}) + 9{TsL} + 22{BL} = 8.75ft = a very sharp Bb

Without moving tuning slides:

157"= Y = [2(26{ISL})+2(26{OSL})] +2(1{CBL}) + 8{CrL} + 7{GN} + 2(2.5{TL}) + 9{TsL} + 22{BL} = 13.08ft = flat E

Now, we won't really ever play all the way on the end of the stocking, so minus about 2" off the end of the slide, 4" total, and we get 12.75ft, which is almost exactly what you need to play an E or B in 7th. So this example is actually perfectly in tune, because all of the notes from a sharp Bb in 1st all the way to a flat E in 7th are playable, and they are all centered around an Ab that is in a spot that makes sense (assuming the manufacturer put the end of the bell there).

If you tune exactly to the bumpers, you need 9ft of tubing (108") to play a Bb, and you add it to the tuning slide, by pulling it 1.5".

108" = X = 2(26{OSL}) + 2(1{CBL}) + 8{CrL} + 7{GN} + 2(4{TL}) + 9{TsL} + 22{BL} = 9ft = Bb

Doing this moves everything else up 1.5" on your slide, towards the bumpers. The 105" minimum length example is great because it gives you 1.5" of wiggle room off the bumpers in 1st position, and you can play and tune that harmonic series like a pro. You also get an E natural that is about 2" from the end of the stockings. The 108" tuning slide pulled example blows, because it gives you no room to tune the Bb harmonic. Pulling the tuning slide effectively increases the minimum length of the trombone, and in this case that's a bad thing.

So how does a manufacturer satisfy a customer who notices that their tuning slide is pulled way out, 1.5", and they complain that the notes in their Ab harmonic series don't slot well? They know their customer is doing it wrong, but they don't want to tell the customer that. So, there have been a few solutions to it. One solution that Conn used was to put a spring in the cork barrels, that effectively gave a variable CBL number. It adds about 1.5" to the CBL length in our first equation. You tuned your trombone to have Bb at the spring, so it looked like this:

108" = X = 2(26{OSL}) + 2(2.5{CBL}) + 8{CrL} + 7{GN} + 2(2.5{TL}) + 9{TsL} + 22{BL} = 9ft = Bb

The maximum length was the same, except the ISL now only has 24.5" to go out on:

157"= Y = [2(24.5{ISL})+2(26{OSL})] +2(2.5{CBL}) + 8{CrL} + 7{GN} + 2(2.5{TL}) + 9{TsL} + 22{BL} = 13.08ft = flat E

This caused Ab to also align with the bell, and all the troublesome unslottable notes in 3rd position suddenly slotted. But the really amazing thing was that you could push the slide into and past the springs and magically reduce the CBL number. So if you did decide to do that, you now have a 105" minimum length again. Not so great for slide vibrato, but pretty cool for tuning notes. Once you know this concept though, the springs are annoying. They make noise and add resistance to the slide. But they illustrate why horn manufacturers design sharp trombones, and how they dealt with customers.

I believe another way manufacturers throw the customer a bone is to place the bell around where Ab should be. The potential issue of doing this is that customers still tune to the bumpers, and the distance between the bell and the bumpers is irreconcilable to the distance between a Bb and an Ab. Hence the squirrelly C's and Ab's and F#'s
everyone complains about (but, tellingly, not Eb, a note that should be pulled out. Or for that matter A's or G's, which have less of a visual marker than 3rd position appears to). Here are some examples from my horns:

88H - Ab tuned in line with bell edge, G and A are exactly where you'd expect in relation to the bell, Bb is about 1.5" off bumpers, low E is playable. Tuning slide is pulled 5mm.
Edwards 396-A - Ab tuned with bell, G and A are where you'd expect in relation to the bell, Bb is about 1.5" off the bumpers, low E is playable. Tuning slide is pulled 5mm.
King 3BFSS - Ab tuned with the bell, G and A are where you would expect in relation to bell, Bb is about 2.5" off the bumpers, low E is playable. Tuning slide is pulled 1cm. As you would expect from a pro jazz horn, there is a lot more room in 1st position slide vibrato. I see many people with 3Bs that have the tuning slide pulled out 2-3", and I don't get it.
Conn 36H alto - cut tuning slide 3/8" to tune Db with the bell. D and C are where you'd expect, and F sits beautifully. Eb is 1.5" off the bumpers, low A is playable. Tuning slide is pushed in all the way. Here is an example where I believe Conn changed the design to appease customers. Pictures of really old 36Hs show that the tuning slide was shorter, and the Bb attachment was longer than production models today. I believe that too many people must've complained that they had to pull the tuning slide way out to tune Eb, and that made the Bb attachment too long, even when closed. So it seems to me that Conn lengthened the tuning slide and shortened the Bb attachment.

I suppose a manufacturer could also change where the bell ends, and move that towards the player 1.5" without changing the overall bell section length. Then, suddenly the distance from the bell to the bumpers would be the same as the distance from Bb to Ab. I have never seen this done, though, although the Vocabell looks like how I would do it.

I mentioned that manufacturers and designers also tune horns another way at the factory, and that has to do with how the partials line up in the harmonic series. I'm not even going to pretend that I know a thing about that. All I have noticed I that the farther the tuning slide is pulled out, the worse the partials and squirreliness seem to be. Try a TIS setup and you'll see just how amazing a horn with a short bell section and a continuous taper can be.

Anyways, meh. I used to have all of these kinds of issues with tuning and intonation when I was in college. I drove myself nuts with a tuner because no matter what horn I was playing, the distance between the bumpers and the bell did not equal the distance between Bb and Ab. Then someone let me use an 88H with the spring bumpers in it, and it was like, "duhhh. I am an idiot".

Now I have no issues adjusting to any horn I play. I can pick up anything that isn't broken or a knockoff design, push in the tuning slide, play a few Ab's and Bb's, and I get a really good feel for what the designer was going for. Plus everything will be in tune and will slot.

If anyone here is a math nerd or an actual brass instrument designer it would be cool to know if my equations are sound, and if there is some kind of way to chart these variables in one pork chop chart to see if there are ideal lengths for each component, and what the absolute worst numbers would be within limitations that make sense. Like, how short can you go in the tuning crook legs to still have 30¢ of play or so, and not add so much length to the slide that you can't reach the end of it? What dimensions can you use that gives you the longest useable amount of notes and tuning on both ends of the slide? What about the best slide setup for a kid or someone with short arms, that still puts Ab at the bell, and possibly Bb very close to the bumpers? Is it possible to have a "sharp" trombone with a long slide that allows for an inch or two more length for low C on the F attachment? Questions!

[PaulTdot]

I'm not too sure on these specifics of instrument design, but I can add this:

I'm fairly sure that the effective "length" of the bell depends on the pitch/frequency being played. The lower you're playing on the horn, the more of the bell is part of the standing wave (as the reflection point moves out towards the bell's edge). In the upper register, the reflection point moves back or in, towards the throat of the bell.

[BaritoneJack]

But the player is also part of the system. Some people play higher on the pitch , and some play lower. "That" aspect is out of the manufacturers control!

Even if one plays in the center of the slot, I think maybe the mouth cavity affects pitch too. I'm not sure what the physics would be and maybe it's not even true, but some people think it matters.

Re. the mouth cavity affecting the pitch - that's no myth, Timothy. Ask any blues harp player, and they'll confirm that to bend a note downwards, they open up the volume of the mouth cavity by dropping the jaw (whilst leaving their embouchure unchanged). I've tried it on my baritone, and it works the same way on that.

It's a trick also used by builders of live steam model locos and traction engines. If they just blow steam through a scale size whistle, it just makes a high-pitched squeak - but if they connect the chamber of the whistle to a much larger air-tight container, the pitch of the whistle is lowered to a far more realistic sound, even though the slot over which the air blows (equivalent to our embouchure) is unchanged.

With best regards,
Jack

[Jbeckett]

Just found this thread. This is really good info. Harrison and Aiden added some good stats. Never thought about Ab with the tuning slide all the way in.