Thoughts on .508

[dcslideman]

I think I am on the market for a .508 straight or maybe a .500/.508 dual bore straight. I currently have a king 3B-F, and it is a good horn, but just isn't wowing me. From what I have read I like the specs of the XO 1634R. I like the sound I get from gold brass bells on my bigger bore Yamahas. I don't think I've seen 891Z with gold brass, though. Any thoughts on others to consider as competition? Probably don't have funds for the Shires, Edwards, and other custom top shelfs, even in used. Thanks for the discussions!

[Burgerbob]

3B is great, but I'm biased.

Courtois AC402 Xtreme is one of the best options out there, imo, and available with a rose bell.

[Posaunus]

Getzen 3508R (red brass bell) or 3508Y (yellow brass bell) - 0.500"/0.508" dual bore.
Sometimes available used at a decent price.

[DakoJack]

Getzen 3508R (red brass bell) or 3508Y (yellow brass bell) - 0.500"/0.508" dual bore.
Sometimes available used at a decent price.

I second that, I own one of the 3508R was my main horn till a recent switch its a great playing horn.

[JLivi]

Personally I think the King 3bf is inferior to a straight 3b. I don't know if it's the weight of the valve or what, but I've always felt that 3bf's were more stuffy. But I'm a big fan of the straight 3b.

I've played both the XO Brass and Getzen 3508 and between the two I'd prefer the getzen. Getzen makes some really great horns, especially their pro line (3047 & 3062). One thing I really like about the Getzen horns is that they come with a few leadpipes to mess with. Also, I wasn't impressed with the XO Brass horn I played, but also would be willing to give it another shot.

Other horns to look out for are the small bore Yamaha like the 891Z you mentioned, but also you might like the Conn 6h (.500 bore). 6h's are easy to come by so you might be able to pick one up for $600-800 And if you don't like you should be able to sell it quickly.

I'm sure I'm missing some great .508's but I'm sure other folks with chime in.

[hyperbolica]

Courtois 402, Shires MD+, Olds Recording, Selmer Bolero, Bach 16m, xo 1643, getzen 3508, Butler JJ, king 3b. Conn never had a 508 bore, but the 32h or 30h would be the closest. Depending on what you're into, there are a lot of options.

I've never tried a 3508. Anybody want to pass me one for a month?

[dcslideman]

Personally I think the King 3bf is inferior to a straight 3b. I don't know if it's the weight of the valve or what, but I've always felt that 3bf's were more stuffy. But I'm a big fan of the straight 3b.

I've played both the XO Brass and Getzen 3508 and between the two I'd prefer the getzen. Getzen makes some really great horns, especially their pro line (3047 & 3062). One thing I really like about the Getzen horns is that they come with a few leadpipes to mess with. Also, I wasn't impressed with the XO Brass horn I played, but also would be willing to give it another shot.

Other horns to look out for are the small bore Yamaha like the 891Z you mentioned, but also you might like the Conn 6h (.500 bore). 6h's are easy to come by so you might be able to pick one up for $600-800 And if you don't like you should be able to sell it quickly.

I'm sure I'm missing some great .508's but I'm sure other folks with chime in.

I didn't think about the possibility the straight 3B would play differently than the F attachment version. I'll have to consider that.

The Getzen does sound like a good option, but I haven't seen one of those to date, (or didn't recognize what it was).

[harrisonreed]

Don't let it dissuade you from trying it out. If you only play straight horns, maybe you hate it, but if you only play horns with valves it might be just what you wanted.

[Matt K]

The copper 32H leadpipe that Brassark sells really works well with the 3B. But it isn’t cheap. I have one in my 3B and it works fantastic.

That aside you might want to figure out if you like other smaller horns or if you want something with a larger frame. Small bore horns need to be played differently than larger horns. It also isn’t unusual for people to play different sized mouthpieces for small horns, and if you aren’t used to that size, of course it won’t feel as good as something you may spend a lot more time on. I get around that by playing the same rim size for all my tenors and altos, but that is by no means the only solution.

If you like the larger Yamahas, you might also want to consider a YSL356. It’s a 500/525 but the bell section is very similar to the larger Yamahas, but with an 8” bell. Very underrated horns (particularly since they aren’t sold in the US anymore).

Again, depends on why the 3BF isn’t wowing you. I personally do t notice much - if any - difference between the 3B and 3BF I’ve played. I know a lot of people who pick up a horn with an f attachment and assume it plays heavier than one without because it is physically heavier, but what is actually coming out the bell doesn’t sound any different. (Excluding instances where there are mechanical or weird design issues).

The models mentioned above are all great. But there are almost an endless amount of models in the 500 to 509 bore size that are fantastic. Very hard to come up with a list because there are so many!

[jorymil]

I've got a Yamaha 691 slide, paired with a modded Bach 16 bell. Also plays great with a Yamaha 354 bell. And Wycliffe sounds great on his 891.

Bore size isn't everything, but it sure won't hurt you to try some different horns. If you're looking to use less air, then going .500 might be what you want instead.

It could also be that you've got a dog of a 3BF: slight slide or valve leakage, maybe leadpipe damage. If you can get your hands on a straight 3b, you might be able to swap pieces around and see where the issue is.

I used to own a 3BF Silversonic, and boy... it could do just about anything. Phenomenal horn.

[hyperbolica]

On the 3b/3bf thing, I've never noticed a difference, and I've never compared them directly, but I do know that the 78h/79h (525 bore horns without and with a trigger) play very differently. I've tried several times to love 78h's because I love my 79h so much, but I just can't do it. I much prefer my 8h with a 525 slide. It's entirely possible for an f attachment to change a horn that much.

On that note, you might include a 78h in your search. It is the one horn I've played that actually plays smaller than you'd expect from the specs. Others have said, and I agree that it plays like a large 6h instead of a small 88h. It might actually be the 508 bore that Conn never made.

[Matt K]

Yeah, the Bach lineup I definitely get the difference might be more than perception too. Given how ubiquitous they have been historically, there is definitely justification for the line of thought I was mentioning.

Ok that note, didn’t someone here have a 78 with a Rotax and an upper 508? Would have been custom but I bet that would be killer. I’m trying to figure out exactly what I want to do with my setup at the moment and I’ve given serious thought to a 525 lower on my 3BF. My favorite slide ever was a T0825GLW (508/525, gold tubes, nickel crook, No over sleeves). But I ended up selling it because it was just a little too dark to be a commercial horn. It not dark enough to do much of anything else and a larger slide beat it out. If I had the bread at the moment, I’d probably order a new one but with yellow outers.

[JLivi]

On the 3b/3bf thing, I've never noticed a difference, and I've never compared them directly, but I do know that the 78h/79h (525 bore horns without and with a trigger) play very differently. I've tried several times to love 78h's because I love my 79h so much, but I just can't do it. I much prefer my 8h with a 525 slide. It's entirely possible for an f attachment to change a horn that much.

On that note, you might include a 78h in your search. It is the one horn I've played that actually plays smaller than you'd expect from the specs. Others have said, and I agree that it plays like a large 6h instead of a small 88h. It might actually be the 508 bore that Conn never made.

Very interesting point about the 78h. I could see that being the case. The difference between .508 and .522 is closer than it is to .547. Maybe there is something to that.

Again, depends on why the 3BF isn’t wowing you. I personally do t notice much - if any - difference between the 3B and 3BF I’ve played. I know a lot of people who pick up a horn with an f attachment and assume it plays heavier than one without because it is physically heavier, but what is actually coming out the bell doesn’t sound any different. (Excluding instances where there are mechanical or weird design issues).

I’ve owned many 3bs and 3bfs over the years. I like to flip trombones when I can. I’ve probably owned at least 10 versions of a 3b over the years. I have found that the straight horn always feel more open than the 3bfs. I even pulled the trigger off of one horn because the valve was really damaged and I was amazed how much better the horn played with a straight neck pipe. It’s possible the damaged valve section played a role is how bad the horn played originally.

Also, I own both a straight 3b and 3bf and play them regularly. I’m on the 3bf more often because I like to have the valve to teach lessons and play wedding gigs (trying to play more 79h in these situations), but I will pull out the straight 3b for everything else and I absolutely love it. Maybe it’s a nostalgic thing as my straight 3b was purchased used when I was 16 and now I’m 35, but it really is a special horn. Over the years peers and even teachers would offer to buy it off of me. I’m glad I never sold it. It’s staying with me forever. I’ll be putting in my will what I want my wife (or kids) to do with it when I die (once I figure that out).

[dcslideman]

The copper 32H leadpipe that Brassark sells really works well with the 3B. But it isn’t cheap. I have one in my 3B and it works fantastic.

That aside you might want to figure out if you like other smaller horns or if you want something with a larger frame. Small bore horns need to be played differently than larger horns. It also isn’t unusual for people to play different sized mouthpieces for small horns, and if you aren’t used to that size, of course it won’t feel as good as something you may spend a lot more time on. I get around that by playing the same rim size for all my tenors and altos, but that is by no means the only solution.

If you like the larger Yamahas, you might also want to consider a YSL356. It’s a 500/525 but the bell section is very similar to the larger Yamahas, but with an 8” bell. Very underrated horns (particularly since they aren’t sold in the US anymore).

Again, depends on why the 3BF isn’t wowing you. I personally do t notice much - if any - difference between the 3B and 3BF I’ve played. I know a lot of people who pick up a horn with an f attachment and assume it plays heavier than one without because it is physically heavier, but what is actually coming out the bell doesn’t sound any different. (Excluding instances where there are mechanical or weird design issues).

The models mentioned above are all great. But there are almost an endless amount of models in the 500 to 509 bore size that are fantastic. Very hard to come up with a list because there are so many!

I do play lots of different mouthpiece sizes. I like a Bach 7 on my .525 bore. I only have a Yamaha 48L for my .547. On my alto I play a 12C or an even smaller Shilke whose number I forget at the moment.

Really enjoying all of your thoughts, everyone. Plan to do some more looking at all of these suggestions.

[Finetales]

Personally I think the King 3bf is inferior to a straight 3b. I don't know if it's the weight of the valve or what, but I've always felt that 3bf's were more stuffy. But I'm a big fan of the straight 3b.

I own a 1973 King 3B and a 1972 King 3BF. They play 99% identically...you will not notice a difference if you're not playing and critiquing them back to back.

Certain 3BFs may be worse than certain 3Bs, but "3BF = worse" is not a universally true statement. My 3BF will play rings around many straight 3Bs out there.

[Burgerbob]

Certain 3BFs may be worse than certain 3Bs, but "3BF = worse" is not a universally true statement. My 3BF will play rings around many straight 3Bs out there.

Mine as well.

[Posaunus]

I have a very nice 3BF (1976, Cleveland) in near perfect condition. I enjoy playing it, except for the somewhat awkward trigger location. It does not seem at all stuffy. Valve functions well.

For several years, I also played a borrowed straight 3B SilverSonic (1967, Cleveland) which - after some refurbishing -
played beautifully. Slightly different sound (warmer?) than the brass 3BF. Wish I still had it - I'd like to be able have both of them in my personal stable!

[jorymil]

Something else to consider: is your rotor aligned? Rotor misalignment will cause any valved horn to play poorly.
These days, they make cheap USB bore cameras (thanks for the tip @bguttman) that work really well at inspecting things. I am having altogether too much fun with mine right now: I'm halfway tempted to start my next video call with it pointed up my nose!

[dcslideman]

Something else to consider: is your rotor aligned? Rotor misalignment will cause any valved horn to play poorly.
These days, they make cheap USB bore cameras (thanks for the tip @bguttman) that work really well at inspecting things. I am having altogether too much fun with mine right now: I'm halfway tempted to start my next video call with it pointed up my nose!

I have it in a very good shop now, so I can have them look at it. Honestly, it wasn't "bad". If any thing it sounded a little "tinny" to me. But, that might be my comfort with the gold brass sound over the yellow.

[Jimkinkella]

I had a silver 3bf for a few years, the best 3b variant I had ever played. Sold it, some kid got the deal of a lifetime...
I've owned a few others, straight and valved, ended up keeping a Shires MD+.
I could never find a 3b that sat well with me, even Silversonics.
Maybe try silver for a different bell response?
Your Yamaha idea isn't a bad one. I'd say keep looking, even in different bell materials, sometimes a manufacturing year or previous owner makes more of a difference than bell material itself.
Hit up Noah Gladstone (Brassark.com) or Doug Bert (thebrass-exchange.com) for ideas
They both get some interesting things in, even in a "budget" price range , and both super nice guys.

[harrisonreed]

I'll note that my 3BF is a silversonic, too, from Noah. He said "I would use this horn on a gig". Yeah, I would too!

[Vegasbound]

Go visit DJ, spend time playing all flavours and walk away with a 3b

[PaulT]

If you try a Yamaha 891, make a point to try it with both lead pipes. The horn is plenty flexible, but with the short lead pipe (the L.A.) (and perhaps with a mouthpiece that resides on the slightly larger/more open spectrum of the usual small bore suspects), you can get a really nice fat warm sound with the .891 (amazingly so, I think). Both lead pipes are great, but they do differ, so do try both.

Anyhoo, it could be that the yellow brass 891 will suit you to a tee.

And do try the rose brass Jupiter .508, as well. Their .500 rose is a wonderful horn, and I expect the .508 is as well. Maybe that's the one.

(if try out options are limited (as they often are), if you can deal with the hassle and cost ($40?) of return shipping, there are shops that offer generous trial periods.)

[dcslideman]

If you try a Yamaha 891, make a point to try it with both lead pipes. The horn is plenty flexible, but with the short lead pipe (the L.A.) (and perhaps with a mouthpiece that resides on the slightly larger/more open spectrum of the usual small bore suspects), you can get a really nice fat warm sound with the .891 (amazingly so, I think). Both lead pipes are great, but they do differ, so do try both.

Anyhoo, it could be that the yellow brass 891 will suit you to a tee.

And do try the rose brass Jupiter .508, as well. Their .500 rose is a wonderful horn, and I expect the .508 is as well. Maybe that's the one.

(if try out options are limited (as they often are), if you can deal with the hassle and cost ($40?) of return shipping, there are shops that offer generous trial periods.)

Thanks for the info on the 891. Would you expect the same on the older 691? I see some of them used.

I am in rural central Pennsylvania, so I may need to buy and sell or do returns as you suggest.

[brtnats]

If you try a Yamaha 891, make a point to try it with both lead pipes. The horn is plenty flexible, but with the short lead pipe (the L.A.) (and perhaps with a mouthpiece that resides on the slightly larger/more open spectrum of the usual small bore suspects), you can get a really nice fat warm sound with the .891 (amazingly so, I think). Both lead pipes are great, but they do differ, so do try both.

Anyhoo, it could be that the yellow brass 891 will suit you to a tee.

And do try the rose brass Jupiter .508, as well. Their .500 rose is a wonderful horn, and I expect the .508 is as well. Maybe that's the one.

(if try out options are limited (as they often are), if you can deal with the hassle and cost ($40?) of return shipping, there are shops that offer generous trial periods.)

Just a +1 on the 891. It’s the best trombone I’ve ever played, and my main tenor. I play it for church gigs, trad-jazz band, ska, blues, jazz combo. So much fun, so easy to play. I’d bet the 691 is very similar. JJ left King for it, and Pankow too.

B

[PaulT]

I haven't played a 691, but Google tells me they came with three lead pipes.

(hmm, I wonder if the 691's lead pipes and the 891's are interchangeable?)

((that's the last thing I need. adding five lead pipes to a half-dozen mouthpieces and my head will explode))

(((if it were a case of good and not good twix all, that would be one thing, but it's good and good and good... and good)))

[PaulT]

When I got my 891 a couple years ago, I immediately gave each lead pipe a try and decided on the long one, I liked its clean, pure, focused sound with the Yamaha 47 mouthpiece I was using (think 7C). I put the short one away in the case and never gave it another thought... until a couple months ago when I pulled it out and gave it a try for some reason (not discontent, just some idle reason) and Wow!, I loved it.

I spent some time back and forthing, and while both sounded good, I clearly liked the short one better. A few spaced out re-checks revealed no change. I now like the short LA one. Not just for the sound (mainly the sound), but also, curiously, to me at least, I like the blow better as well. Don't know if its in my head, but the blow seems easier and more flexible. (Hard to beat a thick, fat sound that comes with an easy blow.)

I have been using the Yamaha Nils Landgren mouthpiece for most of the last year but I now seem to be in the process of switching to the Yamaha 51B (I love, love that mouthpiece)

(as near as I have able to determine, there is no handy comparison to either the Nils or the 51B in the Bach or Schilke lineups, (the only other mp companies I am familiar with}.

((Schilke and Yamaha mouthpieces share model numbers, but little else. A Schilke 51B feels, sounds, and plays very differently than a Yamaha 51B. And it is same with their respective 47s, very different. In both cases, the Schilkes are bigger and heavier than their numerical Yamaha counterparts (solid tone, but, by comparison, they feel slow, stiff, and clumsy to me).

[PaulT]

(if history be the judge, a year from now, I may well be back on the long pipe. But, today is today...)

[whitbey]

I play a 500/508 Edwards for a small bore. I love the sound. It is so easy to play. I can play sweet and gentle or cut though a squirrel on the back fence. The horn almost plays itself. 2 hour gig with dixieland and no problem.
For me this horn plays loud easier then soft, so I would not want bigger for a small horn. My big Edwards play like big Edwards's. Just different. For a small horn this 500/508 is as big as I would go.

[HermanGerman]

My two 70ies 3B - one with f attach - play 100% the same.
I don´t like the silversonic version altough I bought more than ten of them in the last 40 years (because of Albert Mangelsdorff).. can´t figure out why they do not work for me..
I also have a XO 1634R. Bigger sound than 3B, easier response, more lively, much better slide.
Best horn I ever played in the 500 to 525 bore. Just can´t stop playing it.. It plays easy like a 500 but the sound is kind of 525 with brighter edge...
Hail Jupiter

[asmith]

Take a trip to visit us at Chuck's or go play some horns at Dillon's. I've got just about everything but a 3B (though I have one coming some time in May). There's no better informing experience than playing multiple horns.

[dcslideman]

Take a trip to visit us at Chuck's or go play some horns at Dillon's. I've got just about everything but a 3B (though I have one coming some time in May). There's no better informing experience than playing multiple horns.

This is a possibility. I bought my second "first" horn at Chuck's about 20 years ago. (I played in high school, but then had a 20 year hiatis before jumping back into playing for the last 20 years. It was a Yamaha 445G which I still have. My experience that day was very good. It has done everything nicely for me until the last few years when I had more funds to consider branching out. I'm about 2 1/2 hours away (and about the same to Dillons). Back when I bought the horn, the internet was just getting started, so I couldn't find out about horns all over the country. I have been looking at your site(and Dillons). Would probably prefer a nice used horn rather than new from cost standpoint, but won't rule anything out.

[BGuttman]

You could possibly also head north to Hickey's, located in Ithaca NY. But call ahead, they may not have a lot of trombones in stock.

[CarlVicVogel]

Hi All

Not many comments on the Bach LT16M. Same bore, same mouthpiece as my King 3B, but there are differences. The Bach blends better in a pops orchestra and plays slightly smaller and more compact than the King. I bought one after hear Bill Watrous play his. The Bach helps with the confidence when playing a solo or in the studio.

Right now, I switched to the King as I have to project more, but do miss the sweet sound of the Bach.

I am a lucky man having 2 great .508 bones to choose from!

Thanks

CVCashmere

[Burgerbob]

Hi All

Not many comments on the Bach LT16M.

You're right. I love mine. Not sure why I left it out... But they are more quirky, more picky than the average 3B or modern horn. I just assume people don't want to deal with it! The sound is worth the "struggle" much of the time, though.

[Macbone1]

I play a 500/508 Edwards for a small bore. I love the sound. It is so easy to play. I can play sweet and gentle or cut though a squirrel on the back fence. The horn almost plays itself. 2 hour gig with dixieland and no problem.
For me this horn plays loud easier then soft, so I would not want bigger for a small horn. My big Edwards play like big Edwards's. Just different. For a small horn this 500/508 is as big as I would go.

Almost any dual bore is going to be more satisfying, more flexible and less tiring to play than a single bore, unless you're going for a strictly Chicago Symphony style of playing IMHO. Says the guy who owns no dual bores...

[harrisonreed]

Not many comments on the Bach LT16M.

My goodness, is that the one with the square seemingly 3 inch wide slide crook? I could never get that one to work -- I think the slide was just too narrow. On top of that, why the square bends in the tubing?

[Burgerbob]

Not many comments on the Bach LT16M.

My goodness, is that the one with the square seemingly 3 inch wide slide crook? I could never get that one to work -- I think the slide was just too narrow. On top of that, why the square bends in the tubing?

Bach small bore slides are actually a tiny bit wider than a 3B slide.

[harrisonreed]

My goodness, is that the one with the square seemingly 3 inch wide slide crook? I could never get that one to work -- I think the slide was just too narrow. On top of that, why the square bends in the tubing?

Bach small bore slides are actually a tiny bit wider than a 3B slide.

Crazy. My mind must've been trying to figure out why I didn't like it and was just inventing reasons.

[Burgerbob]

Bach small bore slides are actually a tiny bit wider than a 3B slide.

Crazy. My mind must've been trying to figure out why I didn't like it and was just inventing reasons.

Just looking at it, I would assume it's narrower too. A common mod for 16Ms is actually a 3B slide crook!

[ACBEric]

I really enjoy playing the XO 1634RLT. The horn has a wonderfully rich sound and blows very free and easily. I like the higher copper content in the red brass and the chocolatey tone that produces. It is a very sweet horn and plays well across all registers. I like the slide too. The horn is very comfortable to hold and well balanced. There are many great horns out there. The XO 1634RLT just happens to be one of them.

Having said that, for a situation were you felt like you needed more pop, or zing to your sound the red brass might not give you what you want. But for small group playing I think it is a beautiful choice.

[dcslideman]

Thanks Eric, I will find out soon. I hadn't come up with an easy way yet to play several side by side when I came across a deal on a 1634RLT I could not pass up. So I just jumped in. If it isn't wonderful to me, I think I can resell without losing anything significant. Was really interested in the Getzen 3508R too from the discussion here.

[ACBEric]

Cool! I think you will be pleased, at least not grossly unhappy, with that choice. It's so hard because there are so many great choices out there. We have one at Austin Custom Brass (I actually did a video on our website talking about 3 difficult XO jazz horns). I hope it's a great horn for you.

[HermanGerman]

Good choice!I stopped playing all my other horns from .500 to .525 since I got the 1634R. Such a beautiful sound..

[dcslideman]

Good choice!I stopped playing all my other horns from .500 to .525 since I got the 1634R. Such a beautiful sound..

I am pleased so far in getting aquainted with my XO 1634R. What mouthpiece is anybody who has an XO 1634R pairing with it? So far have tried the stock Jupiter 12C and a Bach 7.

[ACBEric]

I have played a 1634 a few times with an ACB 5.1s. I like the mouthpiece with it. It has a deeper cup than the ACB 5s but not as deep as say a Schille 51d (or doesn't feel that deep) and I have gotten a very nice, round, warm sound. I also tried the ACB 6.1s and liked it with that horn. I just like a 5g type size mouthpiece for jazz - unless I'm playing lead and then I'd think something like an ACB 7s or Dennis Wick 9. You might also consider looking at AR Resonance mouthpieces.

[EOlson9]

I've got a 3B with a gold brass bell. I too prefer the non-yellow brass bells on my horns.

[Shumanbean]

I'm playing an old Bach 12 bell with a slightly modified Bach light weight .508 slide, and I really like it. But I wonder if a .500/.508 bore would be a better choice with that bell. I have the .508 XO 1634R, and I like it. It's light, and well balanced with a great slide, blows easy and in tune, but I prefer a 7.5 bell. I played a 3B for a few years, and before that, a Mt Vernon 16ii. They were all good. Wish I could try a Lawler.

[dcslideman]

I agree on the 1634R weight. Since I got it, my other t-bones feel so heavy.

[dukesboneman]

If you can find one, try a Conn 32H.
Dual bore 500/522 , kind of right in the middle "feel wise" between 500 & 522.
I`ve had a couple and they play very free with easy upper range. There was a period of about 8 years where a 32H was my only horn, Lead in a Big band , R&B, small group jazz. A really versatile horn. Too bad they`re not made anymore