Soliciting Opinions on Heavy Small-bore Horns

[TromboneMonkey]

Hi everyone,

I'm interested to hear thoughts on a specific type of horn. I do mostly live work with amplified bands. I own a Williams 4, a Lawler 3, and several Olds (Super, Recording, Recording Bass), my favorite of which is an LA Studio.

I have found I gravitate to horns that are heavier, especially in the slide. I personally think most horns constructed today are way too light and suffer sonically as a result, but YMMV. I love the way my Lawler feels but almost never use it because it just lacks the depth of sound I like. I've had similar experiences with Kanstul, Smelzer, Rath, newer Yamahas, etc. They all just seem to lack depth for me.

I'm wondering if anyone has strong opinions about excellent, heavily-constructed horns. I've been around the block many times, and tend not to like 6Hs, 48Hs, 3Bs, or Bachs in general, but there are exceptions (I have liked several 36s).

I am particularly interested if anyone has opinions about 32Hs, older Yamahas (heavier construction, with oversleeves), XO 1028/1032, or other horns of similarly-robust construction. Let me know if you've stumbled on anything great, especially if there's anything new out there that is heavier (I can't think of anything off the top of my head).

[BGuttman]

Slide weight (and hence inertia) is a property that favors either sound or agility. You really can't have both. If you make the slide light enough to whip through positions it tends to have less sound.

I have a Conn 40H (0.500", TIS). It has a heavy slide because of the tuning. I found it to be a great horn for playing senior dances using "stock" arrangements of the 1930s and 1940s. It also works nicely for Symphony when I need a smaller sound than I get with the 0.547" cannon.

I've known some TIS advocates who probably like the heavier slide TIS has.

I'm not a true heavy slide advocate -- I own both kinds and play both kinds. It depends on what you want to do.

[Burgerbob]

Have you tried the Courtois Xtreme .508? Solid choice with a "heavy" slide. I talked to the designer (who may show up here) at NAMM about it, he said that most small bore slides were too light when they lose the oversleeves.

[TromboneMonkey]

Have you tried the Courtois Xtreme .508? Solid choice with a "heavy" slide. I talked to the designer (who may show up here) at NAMM about it, he said that most small bore slides were too light when they lose the oversleeves.

I have, but it's been a good minute! I'll give it another look. And I agree with that designer! I always find myself looking for oversleeves at this point.

[Posaunus]

Conn 30H (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) - the smaller brother of the 32H. Big sound, sturdily built.

[TromboneMonkey]

Conn 30H (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) - the smaller brother of the 32H. Big sound, sturdily built.

Interested in this; is the sound broad enough for live playing w/the 7" bell?

[Bach5G]

Inderbinen.

[Posaunus]

Conn 30H (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) - the smaller brother of the 32H. Big sound, sturdily built.

Interested in this; is the sound broad enough for live playing w/the 7" bell?

I think so - in my hands at least. [I also like my 1954 Los Angeles Olds Studio!]

From the ConnLoyalist Website:
What Conn said in 1950:
The Burkle models are popular in in large organizations where great power and volume are paramount.
... unique tapered bore through bell, tuning slide, bell taper, hand slides and hand slide bow.
This design produces big tone, accurate intonation and ease of response, especially in top register, making Burkles favorites of high note kings.

[Burgerbob]

Conn 30H (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) - the smaller brother of the 32H. Big sound, sturdily built.

Interested in this; is the sound broad enough for live playing w/the 7" bell?

IMO, no, having heard a couple.

[hyperbolica]

Two horns I've owned with favorite sound have been 32h and Olds Recording. Interestingly, they are similar bore. The last 32h I owned had a lightened slide - just the oversleeves removed. The work was done by BAC. I didn't have a lightened and stock slide side by side to compare, but I did like the horn with the custom work. The thing I don't like about the 32h (and the 30h) is the very narrow slide, just from an ergonomics point of view.

I've currently got a Recording, and a 48h, and I can play those side by side. I love both of those horns, but for different reasons. The Recording is about 1525 g (slide is 543 g) and the 48h is 1425 g (slide is 508g). 48h is not the light slide model. The recording has this fat, grainy sound. Great low range, but also pretty solid upper range. The 48h has a clearer sound. You could not have two more different horns. I'd play the 48h all day for lead big band, and the Recording for soloing.

The one thing they have in common is that they are both loud. I always thought the 48h was loud until I got a Recording.

I should note that I added a counterweight to the Recording. I couldn't find an original, so I took an Ambassador soldered-on weight and put it on the Recording. I could play that horn all day. The rounded gussets make it comfortable to hold, the balance makes the weight tolerable, and the slightly wider slide is nice, and that big fat sound... I might get it refinished one day because the Recording is the one horn that looks best polished. Most of the rest of my horns don't have much lacquer.

[TromboneMonkey]

Unfortunately the regular Recording I have right now is not in good shape; I'm debating whether to have it fixed up (parts would need to be replaced or fabricated), or just hold out for a better specimen. I'd also be interested in checking out a .500-.525 Super if I can lay my hands on one, but those are pretty rare beasts. I'm definitely going to search around for a 32h and the Courtois based on recommendations here.

[hyperbolica]

The Courtois that Burgerbob is talking about was mine. It was a fantastic horn, especially for someone not in such a rut. The intonation is a little bit different, and muscle memory being what it is, I just couldn't keep it. Of the 500+ bores currently being made, the Courtois 402(?) and the Shires MD+ are my favorites.

[ithinknot]

Two questions: how do you get on with your Williams? Not a heavy slide, I assume, but that sound has never struck me as lacking in depth or a certain kind of weight...

Have you considered asking Roy to put oversleeves on your Lawler (or making you another outer)? If he won't, there are plenty who could, but I'd have thought this was a legitimate point of taste and shouldn't be too contentious. Of course, it might not work out the way you hoped, but it's not that expensive an experiment, relatively.

[TromboneMonkey]

I LOVE my Williams. It's amazingly rich sounding with tons of overtones.

I use my Olds more, though, because I'm often blending with screaming trumpet and bright sax, and the Olds is just easier in that regard. They're different kinds of "thick". The Olds is thick and "solid" while the Williams is thick and "soft" if that makes sense.

I'd thought about trying tons of different options with the Lawler since plenty are available but like you said since there's no guarantee it will work out I'm hesitant. I have 4 bell flares now (I like the heavy bronze one the best), but wish I'd originally gotten the heavier gauge stem (I have the lighter one). Perhaps I will try adding sleeves to it and see if it does the trick.

[JohnL]

Have you ever tried a medium-bore Wallace? If I had to choose something from my collection to just melt stuff with, that'd be the first thing I'd reach for.

[TromboneMonkey]

Have you ever tried a medium-bore Wallace? If I had to choose something from my collection to just melt stuff with, that'd be the first thing I'd reach for.

No I've not tried one! I'll keep an eye out. The one on your site is beautiful. That art deco engraving is amazing.

How does it blow compared to your Super LLM-8?

[ithinknot]

adding sleeves

Lead golf tape, and a digital scale to keep track. It's not going to be identical, but an extra 15-20g per tube would definitely confirm whether that direction of travel was promising.

[CalgaryTbone]

Conn 6H's also have a pretty heavy slide with oversleeves - .500 bore, yellow 8" bell. I always liked them, and Rosolino sure could get around on his!

Jim Scott

[Jimkinkella]

Inderbinen.

Yup

I'm also a fan of tis horns, which may be a bit more distribution and construction than total weight, but certainly have some particular qualities that I like.

[Lastbone]

I have an old King -- pre 2B from 1927. Press fit, no slide lock, but heavily constructed, both in the bell and the slide. This little monster rocks. It has a big full sound, and barks with a CL15. BUT, these were made with soldered nickel slide shoes, so they will never have the action of a newer horn.

[Bach5G]

The Inderbinen Piccola has a 7” bell, dual bore .500-.525. Sort of Conn 32H -ish?

[JohnL]

How does it blow compared to your Super LLM-8?

The Wallace definitely plays bigger (not surprising).

[Trevorspaulding376]

Another vote for a good olds recording

[timbone]

Burgerbob is spot on! I love heavy slides that work well- they can have an inertia all their own. For you auto guys- comparing lightweight and standard weight slides is like driving a 1970 corolla versus a 1970 oldsmobile...... feel and sound. Can you get it in .508- sure. .500- maybe (older 6h’s) under .500? Good luck and welcome to the land of TIS or?

[MrHCinDE]

Maybe an old Holton (65 or 67) would be worth a go? I had a 67 for a while which despite it's small proportions could in no way be described as lacking depth, quite the opposite. It's a totally different animal to a 3B or 6H or the other usual suspects. The slide was not particularly heavily constructed but it sure felt good in the hand and played with a rich sound, I'm not sure what sort of voodoo Holton put into those old horns but I've not played anything new with the same feel.

[harrisonreed]

I know it says you don't like 3Bs, but the silversonic version of that horn weighs more than a ton of bricks, though the slide is light. That's as heavy as I've played. Also my favorite.

I've played the BAC Elliott Mason prototype as well, which is also extremely heavy. A great horn, though the handslide brace is too thin.

[Pre59]

I have two K+H's Bart van Liers 480/488", one "Basic" with a heavy slide, 7.25 bell and the "Personal" with a lighter bronze slide and larger bell.
I usually default to the Basic model with the swappable lead pipes, the Sterling silver pipe taker me closer to the sound of the Personal, and I like the dense sound of a heavier slide.

[Finetales]

BAC is your answer.

[Matt K]

Shires standard weight is actually on the heavier side. When they started in the 90s, that was in vogue. So a standard weight shires or a heavyweight may also fit the bill.

If you happen to run across them, I recall the Schilke small bores to be on the heavy side as well. I think I may have tried the ST31 a few years ago at ATW. I don’t think I’ve ever known someone to own one nor have I ever seen one come up used so I’m not sure if that is indicative of anything or not.

[Mv2541]

The XO non-Fedchock horns I remember being really heavy (bell and slide), but definitely in a dull way. I think I had the .500 one.

Also I totally agree with this ^^^ if you’re talking about ones with the brass outers and oversleeves a la T08 as opposed to the normal T08NLW.

[slidefunk]

I honestly don't think it gets better than a King 2B or 3B for that kind of work. IMO, they hold their sound the best when push comes to shove. Silver or yellow bells, both are great. There is a reason you see them out gigging so much.

[CharlieB]

TromboneMonkey

Been there. Done that.
My favorite sound.
Deep, beefy sound with just a bit of sheen to keep it from sounding tubby
Over the course of a year, I auditioned many heavy horns........some are on your list.
Most were ho hum. Just OK.
I also auditioned horns with an assortment of removable leadpipes.
I was amazed by how much a horn's sound can vary based on the leadpipe.
Ironically, the horn that best produced the deep, rich sound in my head was one with a light weight nickel silver slide, and then only with a certain leadpipe. It seems that the choice of leadpipe has more influence on the sound of the horn than the weight of the slide. That horn is now my daily player.

[Doug Elliott]

I have found in general that players who are obsessed with one particular aspect - size of horn, heavy or light this or that, size of mouthpiece - and can't ever find what they like - are barking up the wrong tree.

[harrisonreed]

I love gear, but the two posts above are right. The funny thing is that a trombone sounds like a trombone, and you will sound like you on no matter what you play on. The feedback - the tactile feedback up front - and what your hear behind the bell can be really different from horn to horn. That will change how fun it is to play, and how you approach the horn. It has a knock on effect on how you sound as a player. So... You should just find what is the best feeling, easiest to play trombone.

Maybe mouthpieces are a different story. You can get some dopey sounds just by using dopey mouthpieces in a way that switching a bell or bore size won't do.

Like using a 12c vs a small shank 5G will change more than any horn switch, short of switching to a straight up broke horn.