Rim Shape

Post Reply
Mitchwolberg5
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm

Rim Shape

Post by Mitchwolberg5 »

I've got a Gene Watts mouthpiece that came with my Yamaha 356R that sounds great and is really comfortable. The rim is wide and slightly curved. The problem is that its also very deep which tires me out and limits my high range. Does anybody know of other mouthpieces with a similar rim?

Mitch
User avatar
Doug Elliott
Posts: 2950
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Maryand

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

Mitchwolberg5 wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 1:37 pm I've got a Gene Watts mouthpiece that came with my Yamaha 356R that sounds great and is really comfortable. The rim is wide and slightly curved. The problem is that its also very deep which tires me out and limits my high range. Does anybody know of other mouthpieces with a similar rim?

Mitch
Found this, my reply to a similar post in 2018:
Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:50 am In the very beginning I made just 2 or 3 for them, and I don't know what happened to them or how they were labeled. Your description sounds like it could be one of those.
So there's at least some chance that it's the shape of my standard rims.
Probably my LT 101, which works on any of my LT cups and their appropriate shanks.

A 356R is small shank .500/.525, right?
I haven't paid much attention to those mouthpieces, but I didn't know they were made in small shank.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
Mitchwolberg5
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Mitchwolberg5 »

Strangely enough it's a large shank but I'd like to find something similar in a small shank as well for my 6H. Sounds like I should be looking at your mp's.
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Posaunus »

Mitchwolberg5 wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 3:11 pm Strangely enough it's a large shank but I'd like to find something similar in a small shank as well for my 6H. Sounds like I should be looking at your mp's.
Yes, you should be looking at Doug Elliott's mouthpiece lineup. Get his advice before you purchase.

I don't understand the combination of a (large-shank) Gene Watts mouthpiece and the (small-shank) Yamaha 356R (as Doug noted, 0.500"/0.525" dual bore). They don't mate. How did you try out the mouthpiece? :idk:

The Gene Watts mouthpiece I obtained from Jim Scott a few years ago was (I believe) made by Getzen, and does indeed have a deep funnel-shaped cup and a "Remington" shank - for a Conn 8H/88H. Compared to a Bach 5G, the Gene Watts cup is a bit smaller I.D., but deeper. The rim is wide and quite flat, with a fairly sharp bite. The overall mouthpiece shape (blank) is similar to the Denis Wick "Heritage" profile.
User avatar
Doug Elliott
Posts: 2950
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Maryand

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

If your horn has a large shank, it's not a 356R.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
User avatar
Matt K
Verified
Posts: 3945
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Matt K »

Could be a 356R bell with a different slide. Or a 356R w/o a leadpipe. I sold a 356R that I had the leadpipe pulled sometime last year. A large shank would fit in it but it would play a LOT better w/ one. That might be your endurance problem if that is the case.
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 4491
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
Contact:

Re: Rim Shape

Post by harrisonreed »

Maybe the 648R?
Mitchwolberg5
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Mitchwolberg5 »

Interesting responses, the bell is 8" and the slide is .5/.525 so I'm pretty sure its a 356. I've got a press in lead pipe on my 6H so I'll see if that fits and changes how the horn plays.
User avatar
Doug Elliott
Posts: 2950
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Maryand

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

It can't take a large shank mouthpiece. Maybe the terminology is not right.

A large shank mouthpiece is very close to .500 at the end. It can't go into a slide that's .500
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Posaunus »

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 11:27 am It can't take a large shank mouthpiece. Maybe the terminology is not right.

A large shank mouthpiece is very close to .500 at the end. It can't go into a slide that's .500
My speculation:
I expect that the [large "Remington" shank] Gene Watts mouthpiece was just coincidentally shipped to the OP with the [small shank] Yamaha 356R trombone. Since these components are not compatible, I expect the OP tried the mouthpiece with another large shank trombone, and the 356R reference is merely a "red herring!"
Mitchwolberg5
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Mitchwolberg5 »

This has gotten away from the original question but its definitely 500/525 and a small shank mp doesn't fit at all. The press in leadpipe from my 6H won't come out easily and I don't want to force it. I bought the horn used so I don't know what customizations were made to it.

So other than Doug Elliot's mp's are there other mp's with a wide slightly rounded rim?
User avatar
Doug Elliott
Posts: 2950
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Maryand

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

Pictures, please.
I don't see how any .500 bore upper tube can be fitted with a large shank receiver.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4530
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Burgerbob »

Definitely a large shank horn. I'd expect it's a 448G
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
tbonesullivan
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Rim Shape

Post by tbonesullivan »

Yeah, either that's been really modified, or it's not a YSL-356R. I guess it's possible that someone decided to ream out the end of the leadpipe for a larger mouthpiece, but that seems unlikely.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
User avatar
Doug Elliott
Posts: 2950
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Maryand

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

How are you sure it's .500 bore on the upper slide tube?
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
Mitchwolberg5
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Mitchwolberg5 »

Measured with calipers and the slide only goes on 1 way.

It plays great up to the F above staff and then gets stuffy above that.
Kdanielsen
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:35 pm
Location: New England

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Kdanielsen »

Perhaps the leadpipe is missing
Kris Danielsen D.M.A.

Westfield State University and Keene State College
Lecturer of Low Brass

Principal Trombone, New England Repertory Orchestra
2nd Trombone, Glens Falls Symphony
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 1564
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: Rim Shape

Post by JohnL »

Mitchwolberg5 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:44 pm Measured with calipers and the slide only goes on 1 way.
You have calipers?
Can you measure the Gene Watts mouthpiece shank right at the end of the mouthpiece receiver?
Also, does the mouthpiece seat solidly or does it wobble?
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Posaunus »

Mitchwolberg5 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:14 am Here's some pic's:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofxaztjrw55fi ... 9.jpg?dl=0
That's the Gene Watts mouthpiece, all right.
Here are the measurements of the one that I have (thanks to Gene Watts and Jim Scott):
• Rim I.D. ~ 25.45mm / 1.002"
• Flat, Wide Rim; fairly sharp bite
• V-shaped Cup, fairly deep
• Throat: ~7.16mm / 0.282"
• Backbore: fairly broad
• "Remington" shank (should wobble a bit in a standard large-bore receiver; e.g., for a 0.547" bore trombone)
• Gold-plated

This mouthpiece is indeed compatible with an Elkhart Conn 88H.
dcslideman
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:57 pm
Location: Central Pennsylvania

Re: Rim Shape

Post by dcslideman »

Regarding the bell section, it should have a model engraved on the neckpipe just above the connection ring. The case looks older than 448 era, but that could have been swapped out.
CalgaryTbone
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: Rim Shape

Post by CalgaryTbone »

Posaunus wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 6:04 pm
Mitchwolberg5 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:14 am Here's some pic's:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofxaztjrw55fi ... 9.jpg?dl=0
That's the Gene Watts mouthpiece, all right.
Here are the measurements of the one that I have (thanks to Gene Watts and Jim Scott):
• Rim I.D. ~ 25.45mm / 1.002"
• Flat, Wide Rim; fairly sharp bite
• V-shaped Cup, fairly deep
• Throat: ~7.16mm / 0.282"
• Backbore: fairly broad
• "Remington" shank (should wobble a bit in a standard large-bore receiver; e.g., for a 0.547" bore trombone)
• Gold-plated

This mouthpiece is indeed compatible with an Elkhart Conn 88H.
Those mouthpieces were made while the Canadian Brass were playing Getzen horns (early days of the Edwards, and I think a bit before most of the more professional Getzens were produced). The standard trombone mouthpiece had a Bach-style shank, but they made the Conn-style version as well. Maybe a small shank too, because the "student model" Gene Watts horn was a .525/.547 bore, while Gene's regular (pro-model) horn was a .547. I forget who was making the mouthpieces (Warburton?). I never really played mine except play-testing, but Gene gave it to me when the quintet was playing a concert with my orchestra, and he saw me playing my 1950's Conn 8H. I think the Tuba mouthpieces are still sought after, because Chuck had at least one model that was a copy of Arnold Jacob's maim mouthpiece.

Jim Scott
Mitchwolberg5
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Mitchwolberg5 »

dcslideman wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:45 pm Regarding the bell section, it should have a model engraved on the neckpipe just above the connection ring. The case looks older than 448 era, but that could have been swapped out.
It was hard to read but it confirms it: 365R.
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Posaunus »

Mitchwolberg5 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:42 am
dcslideman wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:45 pm Regarding the bell section, it should have a model engraved on the neckpipe just above the connection ring. The case looks older than 448 era, but that could have been swapped out.
It was hard to read but it confirms it: 365R.
365R is different than the originally posted 356R.
User avatar
Doug Elliott
Posts: 2950
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Maryand

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

I don't know what a 365 is.
Does the slide section have a model number on it?
Sounds like it may be a very modified frankenyamaha
...trombone shaped object.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
Mitchwolberg5
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:01 pm

Re: Rim Shape

Post by Mitchwolberg5 »

Sorry for the typo...356R
Post Reply

Return to “Mouthpieces”