Trombone for a teenager

[hubcia]

Good morning.
I hope you will be able to help me.
My son is starting his journey with trombone so I am looking to buy a good quality used one. Looking on line I found “Meinl” made in Germany.


But I cannot find any information about this trombone brand on line.
Do you know it?
Is it ok for a beginner?
Has it been discontinued? Could it be very old?
Thank you very much in advance.

Anna

[harrisonreed]

Are you located in Europe? I ask because the recommendations will be different depending on if you are in North America or Europe. And the recommendations might be really different if you are located anywhere else.

[Vegasbound]

To add to Harrison’s questions, does your son have a trombone teacher? If so have the discussion with him/her, if he doesn’t then get one…a good teacher is the best investment.

[Bach5G]

Yamaha 354.

[Doug Elliott]

Have you guys noticed that there have been several new members lately, asking questions like this, that sort of make sense but not really? These are bots, practicing on our forum.

[Neo Bri]

Have you guys noticed that there have been several new members lately, asking questions like this, that sort of make sense but not really? These are bots, practicing on our forum.

Yes, I smell a bot.

[Digidog]

I'd think its both for practicing bot-posting, and bot-harvesting of data.

I suspect the purpose is to fine-tune the algorithms to both create legible and sensible posts with valid content, and then to detect, analyze and gather data from the responses.

All in preparation for data harvesting followed by mass advertising on bigger, more marked oriented, and commersially more viable, platforms.

[Burgerbob]

I'm not smelling bot, just non-native-english speaker in europe somewhere. I don't think bots care much about old Meinls.

[Neo Bri]

You might be right, but that's easy datamining. We'll see.

[BGuttman]

Getting one approved post doesn't get you very far for data mining. Getting to the three that opens the locks is going to take some doing.

[Doug Elliott]

Bots are non-native-english speakers.
I'm not talking about grammar errors. It's the pretty reasonable but still nonsensical nature of the questions, combined with very generic info, also pretty reasonable but nonsensical.

Example from.this one:
"Looking on line I found “Meinl” made in Germany.
But I cannot find any information about this trombone brand on line."

Look back at the past 4 or 5 "first posts" by new members. One of them might have been real. A couple were caught before they became public.

[harrisonreed]

Having spoken to Chat GPT, if the OP is a bot then it is a pretty terrible model. We can wait for a reply -- I'd give the benefit of the doubt and guess it's someone with a non-native level of English.

Talking to Chat GPT is like talking to a human being with a native level of English and wits. The most interesting conversation I've had recently was with a GPT derivative.

[JohnL]

I'll answer as though it's a real human; it's not like what I have to offer is going to be particularly helpful to either human no 'bot.

The Meinl name goes back several generations in the instrument making business. There are at least three companies that carry the Meinl name today (Ewald Meinl, Rudolf Meinl and Melton Meinl Weston), plus some others that have come and gone. Melton and Rudolf Meinl are both focused on tubas and closely related instruments; Ewald Meinl makes historical brass.

Which is all a roundabout way of saying that I wouldn't make any recommendation without more information.

[Digidog]

It's also weird to get "Meinl" made in Germany as the primary answer from an "on line" search. For fun, I did some searching on "trombone-" with and without various tags, in different engines, and in none of them "Meinl" made in Germany was mentioned in the first three pages I bothered to look through.

So I fully agree with Doug here: This is the first step of the GPT spamming cataclysm of the Internet.

[hubcia]

Thank you very much for your answers. Definitely I am NOT a bot.
Yes I am located in Europe (Greece to be specific). Last year my son got into music high school and he chose a trombone as his instrument. For the last year he was using the instrument provided by school - Trevor James. Since he is committed to continue with trombone, his teacher suggested to buy him his own. Unfortunately I cannot afford buying a decent new one so I am trying to find a used one. I don’t think it is a very popular instrument here (only two kids in the entire school play it) so because I couldn’t find anything interesting in Greece I started to look abroad. There is a lot good used trombones in the US, but the shipping cost….
So I am trying to find something in Poland. I found the Meinl, but I cannot find anything about it online - that’s why I am asking here.
Does anyone know the company?
Thank you again!

[BGuttman]

We have a few members in EU who are selling trombones. I'd be a bit suspicious of that one. I'm sure you can do better.

[Neo Bri]

Thank you very much for your answers. Definitely I am NOT a bot.
Yes I am located in Europe (Greece to be specific). Last year my son got into music high school and he chose a trombone as his instrument. For the last year he was using the instrument provided by school - Trevor James. Since he is committed to continue with trombone, his teacher suggested to buy him his own. Unfortunately I cannot afford buying a decent new one so I am trying to find a used one. I don’t think it is a very popular instrument here (only two kids in the entire school play it) so because I couldn’t find anything interesting in Greece I started to look abroad. There is a lot good used trombones in the US, but the shipping cost….
So I am trying to find something in Poland. I found the Meinl, but I cannot find anything about it online - that’s why I am asking here.
Does anyone know the company?
Thank you again!

Glad you are alive! Sorry for the potentially unwelcoming introduction. You are welcome here!

[JohnL]

I found a couple Meinl trombones by searching for poasune rather than trombone.
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/ ... 59-74-6278
https://www.ebay.de/itm/204339233697?ha ... Sw5axkY5ka
Based on the prices, I suspect that there are student-grade instruments

The lettering on the counterweight is very similar to what was once used by the Roland Meinl...

1951-cymbals-retro.jpg

Roland Meinl Musikinstrumente GMBH & Co. KG doesn't make wind instruments today, but I found some vague references that make me think that Roland Meinl started out making wind instruments before he got into making cymbals. He apprenticed making wind instruments in Kraslice (Graslitz) in what is now the Czech Republic, but was among the thousands of ethnic Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia after WWII.

The company is also a distributor, so it's possible that they may have sold wind instruments made by someone else under their name (aka "stencil horns").

With so little information available, I don't think it's a good candidate for a long-distance buy unless you can return it if it doesn't meet his needs.

[Doug Elliott]

Sorry I doubted you!
There many Chinese instruments sold under various German-sounding names. Meinl is a German instrument company name and it says Germany, but that doesn't guarantee it's good quality.
It's almost always better to buy a good quality used instrument.
If you can find or order a Yamaha YSL-354, that would be a great choice. It's listed as a student horn but they are excellent quality.

[Bach5G]

… Meinl is a German instrument company name and it says Germany, but that doesn't guarantee it's good quality.
…

Huttl

[MStarke]

I would suspect - as some others - that this is a rebranded instrument. Not necessarily one of these awful Chinese or Indian trombone-shaped-objects. Could also be something like a rebranded (older) Kühnl, but I really don't know.

But coming from Germany I am pretty sure that there are safer options available throughout Europe.
Ideally you get some input from your son's teacher of what he/she recommends.
Assuming it's supposed to be a typical student instrument, the usual answer is Yamaha 354 (or maybe 356 which I think is the f attachment version with a slightly larger dual bore slide?).
Also in Europe you might find other generally good quality student trombones in good condition.
E.g. Kühnl&Hoyer, King or Conn student models.

The hardest part if buying unseen online is to evaluate the condition.
Student trombones are often sold by people who have very little clue of e.g. how a good slide feels.
So there is always some risk. Some ways to mitigate a little: Buy from a shop (if you are lucky!) or plan some budget for some repair.

[musicofnote]

As someone who lives in a "German speaking" country, almost bilingual, but doesn't speak or write perfect German, I re-read the OP posting and for the life of me, I can't see where anyone not speaking natively an EU language could somehow determine that this is not good or even proficient English and therefore must be a botl This ... schmeckt mir nicht nur wie voller Arroganz, sondern auch Ignoranz darüber, was jemand braucht, sich auf intelligente Weise in einer zweiten Sprache zu verständigen. Lassen wir diejenige, welche behauptete, der sei ein "Bot", besser in derer zweiten Sprache schreiben.

An absolutely horrid example of getting so scared of "others" in the internet, that the first knee jerk reaction is to accuse someone of scamming. And then "Oh gee, well ... sorry".

[Digidog]

As someone who lives in a "German speaking" country, almost bilingual, but doesn't speak or write perfect German, I re-read the OP posting and for the life of me, I can't see where anyone not speaking natively an EU language could somehow determine that this is not good or even proficient English and therefore must be a botl This ... schmeckt mir nicht nur wie voller Arroganz, sondern auch Ignoranz darüber, was jemand braucht, sich auf intelligente Weise in einer zweiten Sprache zu verständigen. Lassen wir diejenige, welche behauptete, der sei ein "Bot", besser in derer zweiten Sprache schreiben.

An absolutely horrid example of getting so scared of "others" in the internet, that the first knee jerk reaction is to accuse someone of scamming. And then "Oh gee, well ... sorry".

It has, at its core, nothing to do with anyone not writing grammatically correct, or with a perfect english syntax: It has to do with the fact that it's increasingly prevalent with posting bots that are used to both spread and harvest data from internet foras and bulletin boards.

The development of GPT bots is opening up for single actors to produce incredible amounts of posts, with very little effort and in very short time, which can be used to gather information, create fake general opinions, and/or quickly spread false and fake information. If we human users don't watch out, the internet can quickly be rendered useless by a catastrophic overflow of GPT generated information, that makes it impossible to keep foras, discussion boards or bulletin boards due to the amount of texts produced and the enormous amount of both real and fake information mixed and intertwined. Add to that the possibility to harvest and mine data from identified real users, that is processed by neural, deep learning systems, and it is an easy task to profile and track individuals all over their internet activity - from the shady to the legal.

The suspicion is jusitified, and to me it's better to have to prove myself and others to be real and human, than to open up for a tidal wave of nonsensical postings and information from GPT:s.

[hubcia]

Oh boy,
This escalated quickly... Let's clear some air!
Yes, I am not a native English speaker. I do not mind if someone corrects my mistakes. I am Polish living in Greece and I am constantly being laughed at by my Greek kids for mistakes that I still make in Greek. I really got over it and I just do not care anymore. I am not offended and I understand that you try to protect your forum from all the bots.
Going back the subject. I am really grateful for all the answers.
JohnL - amazing knowledge. It made me dig more and find the answer. I emailed the companies that you mentioned. Indeed it was made by Ronald Meinl. It has been discontinued for 25 years. It could be very old so they really advice me to try it before buying it.
Obviously,first I spoke with my son's teacher. He said that it is better to buy a new one (even a Startone SSL-45) than buying a used one. He says that buying a used one on line could be very risky. Well, it made me confused as I read so many times to do otherwise. So I do not feel comfortable with asking him every time I find something interesting on line
I will continue searching.
If I see something like that:

Should I be discouraged right away? Bear in mind - my son is 13 year old and it will be his second year playing on the instrument. At this moment I do not think he will take a proper care for it (sad but true).

[Neo Bri]

As someone who lives in a "German speaking" country, almost bilingual, but doesn't speak or write perfect German, I re-read the OP posting and for the life of me, I can't see where anyone not speaking natively an EU language could somehow determine that this is not good or even proficient English and therefore must be a botl This ... schmeckt mir nicht nur wie voller Arroganz, sondern auch Ignoranz darüber, was jemand braucht, sich auf intelligente Weise in einer zweiten Sprache zu verständigen. Lassen wir diejenige, welche behauptete, der sei ein "Bot", besser in derer zweiten Sprache schreiben.

An absolutely horrid example of getting so scared of "others" in the internet, that the first knee jerk reaction is to accuse someone of scamming. And then "Oh gee, well ... sorry".

Absolutely horrid? Relax. We apologized and welcomed them. Yes, we are protective of the forum. People have had to build it, pay for it, maintain it, for you and all of us to use it. We essentially ask for nothing. So please chill.

[harrisonreed]

People, seriously, go talk to Chat GPT. Even for two minutes. Whatever bot thing you're talking about is beyond obsolete now. Chat GPT can write better than anyone on this forum.

https://beta.character.ai/

You guys are dating yourselves. By like 6 months!

[BGuttman]

hubcia, the picture you showed is typical lacquer loss from an instrument "rode hard and put away wet" (a horse riding term meaning used and not cared for). The dark patches are where the lacquer has flaked off the brass and the brass oxidized. In very bad cases there will be a red crusty center to the patches. A red crusty center is something called "red rot" and is a serious problem. This one does not seem to have gone that far.

The darkened spots can be lightened with a good brass cleaning cream (don't know what brands are there in Greece). Some of the brass cleaners may remove what lacquer is left. If the whole thing is dark, you can polish it up and then treat it with an auto wax (I like a good hard shell wax) which will keep it from darkening for a few weeks. Then you can polish it again.

Big thing to watch for on used Yamaha trombones is the condition of the chrome plate on the slide. At one time they had plating problems where the chrome would blister and flake off. If you find an instrument whose slide has bare patches of brass with very rough edges, the chrome plate has flaked off and you should avoid it. The chrome is very hard and the sharp edge will dig into the outer slide wearing it out prematurely. Note that a bare copper patch with smooth edges is just worn and can be worked around.

Good luck.

[Doug Elliott]

I have seen that chrome blistering on Yamaha slides, but over the years I have owned about 10 of them and never had it happen. So yes look for it, but it's not that common. They're typically good horns.

[musicofnote]

As someone who lives in a "German speaking" country, almost bilingual, but doesn't speak or write perfect German, I re-read the OP posting and for the life of me, I can't see where anyone not speaking natively an EU language could somehow determine that this is not good or even proficient English and therefore must be a botl This ... schmeckt mir nicht nur wie voller Arroganz, sondern auch Ignoranz darüber, was jemand braucht, sich auf intelligente Weise in einer zweiten Sprache zu verständigen. Lassen wir diejenige, welche behauptete, der sei ein "Bot", besser in derer zweiten Sprache schreiben.

An absolutely horrid example of getting so scared of "others" in the internet, that the first knee jerk reaction is to accuse someone of scamming. And then "Oh gee, well ... sorry".

Absolutely horrid? Relax. We apologized and welcomed them. Yes, we are protective of the forum. People have had to build it, pay for it, maintain it, for you and all of us to use it. We essentially ask for nothing. So please chill.

Hmm, reading your posting, I'm convinced YOU'RE a bot. Same amount of "evidence". Prove me wrong. You're "protective of a forum - which is itself rediculous. A "forum" doesn't need protection. People -could- need protection from someone who's scamming, not from someone who some of y'all think might want to scamm, with no proof. It's bullying. And jumping on. but hey "I'm sorry" is just the amount of glue that makes broken china completely whole again. How about
1) letting an administrator handle it WITHOUT the jumping on.
2) see point 1 above.
3) but then again - maybe YOU'RE a bot. Prove me wrong.

[musicofnote]

As someone who lives in a "German speaking" country, almost bilingual, but doesn't speak or write perfect German, I re-read the OP posting and for the life of me, I can't see where anyone not speaking natively an EU language could somehow determine that this is not good or even proficient English and therefore must be a botl This ... schmeckt mir nicht nur wie voller Arroganz, sondern auch Ignoranz darüber, was jemand braucht, sich auf intelligente Weise in einer zweiten Sprache zu verständigen. Lassen wir diejenige, welche behauptete, der sei ein "Bot", besser in derer zweiten Sprache schreiben.

An absolutely horrid example of getting so scared of "others" in the internet, that the first knee jerk reaction is to accuse someone of scamming. And then "Oh gee, well ... sorry".

The suspicion is jusitified, and to me it's better to have to prove myself and others to be real and human, than to open up for a tidal wave of nonsensical postings and information from GPT:s.

Ok, prove you're not a bot to "us". How are you going to do that. Personally, you're being pretty defensive for being innocent of being a bot. So prove it. See how easy that goes? Throwing stones is really easy. Especially with nothing more as evidence than than someone else "thinks" you're a bot. Anyway, until you can prove you're not a bot, you are one.

[BGuttman]

Well, I know for a fact that Daniel (Digidog) is real. I bought two arrangements from him (well, one was free). The first one became a standard part of one of my big band's repertoire.

Now as to our original poster, what 'bot is going to embed a picture to back a question? Have they gotten so sophisticated that they can find a particular image to add?

Most of the Russian 'bots seem to paste pictures with no relation to the content they are trying to push (and some are Ukranian -- same thing).

[Neo Bri]

Absolutely horrid? Relax. We apologized and welcomed them. Yes, we are protective of the forum. People have had to build it, pay for it, maintain it, for you and all of us to use it. We essentially ask for nothing. So please chill.

Hmm, reading your posting, I'm convinced YOU'RE a bot. Same amount of "evidence". Prove me wrong. You're "protective of a forum - which is itself rediculous. A "forum" doesn't need protection. People -could- need protection from someone who's scamming, not from someone who some of y'all think might want to scamm, with no proof. It's bullying. And jumping on. but hey "I'm sorry" is just the amount of glue that makes broken china completely whole again. How about
1) letting an administrator handle it WITHOUT the jumping on.
2) see point 1 above.
3) but then again - maybe YOU'RE a bot. Prove me wrong.

Please take the off-topic ranting somewhere else. You'd be surprised how much the admins do behind the scenes to keep things going well, and I'm thankful for it. but you seem to have endless hostility about this topic. You're welcome to show yourself out, or at the very least post your rant somewhere else. Like another forum, Reddit, etc. Because right now you seem to be the bully.

OP, sorry to derail this last time. We admins will take care to keep the topic on track from now on.

[musicofnote]

Imagine, getting slapped upside the cyber-head for ... protesting bullying and jumping on. Can't have that, can we?

Good. Off to hibernate in the penalty box...as suggested.