When they won't play in tune

[tbdana]

I'm at a bit of a loss and would like your guidance on a tuning issue.

I used to play in a large music market. Now I'm in a region that has only a small pro scene. I've been hired to play in two community groups, one orchestra and one big band. These groups hire a handful of professionals to play the principal/important parts and to lead their sections. The idea is to beef up the groups and to make them sound better. These groups are paying me to make my section (and the larger group) sound good, and I'm stumped about intonation problems.

The problem is they just play out of tune. Like, all the freakin' time. Even if we manage to get a tuning note in tune (which is rare), when we start to play the intonation falls apart immediately. The thing that baffles me is that players don't even seem to recognize that they are out of tune. Or if they do, they don't seem to care or to know how to fix it.

These are community players. They're enthusiastic and they have a wonderful and inspiring love of playing, but they don't take lessons and they don't have good ears. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. These groups are for fun. But I feel a responsibility because the group is paying me to make the us sound better.

What can I do?

I'm not even sure what is appropriate from me in my role. The other pros just cash the checks and shrug their shoulders at the intonation problem. Should I just not say anything at all? But isn't it my job to address this? I'm feeling very humbled in my inability to make the kind of difference I feel they expect from me for the money they are paying me.

Thank you.

[GabrielRice]

If they're paying you enough to make it worth your time, I would try to do section work outside the regular ensemble rehearsals. Ideally it would be a trombone or low brass quartet, and you work up some music to perform outside the big group. This should help a lot in getting the ears more attuned to the section sound, blend, and intonation.

[BGuttman]

Many amateurs don't learn the fine points of tuning. I've seen cases where they don't ever pull the valve tuning slides and certainly don't understand the use of triggers or saddles on the trumpets.

Trombone players often don't understand the fact that positions can vary based on the note and even the note within the chord. Also, many can't reach far enough to play a C in 6 or B natural in 7. Not to mention "where the heck is 5th position?"

If the group wants to improve, bring some Bach Chorale or other quartet or trio pieces and spend a little time before the rehearsal doing intonation training.

If the group seems not to care, just take your stipend and shut up.

[Wilktone]

I don't know your teaching background. Do you feel that if given the chance to work with the group that you know how to fix the intonation issues effectively, considering the background and situation of these particular players? If the main thing you have are gripes, then smile, collect your check, and go home after the performance.

If you've got suggestions that can help, then communicate these ideas to the director (diplomatically, of course).

This should help a lot in getting the ears more attuned to the section sound, blend, and intonation.

I wanted to emphasize how important tone and balance is to intonation. I conduct a community wind ensemble and find that often fixing the balance corrects intonation (and vice versa). It's much harder to get an ensemble playing in tune when the balance is off.

[AtomicClock]

I'm convinced that, in order to tolerate out-of-tuneness, a bit of pitch blindness develops naturally, as a defense mechanism. How else would we have survived beginning band? And that contributes to an inability to even think in tune.

Are you able to at least play in tune with yourself, in this environment? If so, make sure your section knows to listen and tune to you, rather than the group's wandering pitch center.

[norbie2018]

Another vote for sectionals and the role balance can play on playing in tune.

[imsevimse]

This problem can be looked upon from many angles.

As a music teacher I've learned how to play my part in such situations.

First:
As a a pro-tromboneplayer you have good ears and very prepared to adjust to what is going on with others. As tromboneplayers we solve other players intonationproblems a lot without realizing it. Well, don't do it in this situation. This was a huge problem for me when I first started as a teacher and had to play with the students. My first reaction was to adjust to the students because I could not stand all the out of tune chords but I quickly realised this was a mistake. Now I'm fast to analyze situations like that and if I have to move my slide "in" and it is still out of tune and "out" and it is still out of tune then I just stop to adjust to the others. I know that under normal conditions I do not need to move my slide awkward so I just don't do it if it is pointless. The problem is with the other players and in the group and I will help the group best if I just keep my slide in place. So advice is do your normal adjustments and then don't adjust to the ones with no ears ( the "out-of-tune-players"). This isn't what you asked but was my first thought, because this is what I have to do a lot to stay alive in those situations or my playing will fall apart.

Second:
To your question: Just do what you are paid to do, and you can suggest to give lessons to the ones who are eager to learn. Some don't want to hear about problems so it's important to know when to keep your mouth shut. After all they are good guys that want to have a good time. Some have problems that can not be solved without years of practice and relearning. When I'm in those situations and some asks and is interested I try to find just one thing to say that I believe could help the situation most. Often it is I encourage one or more players to give more "sound" to find the right balance, because balance is important to play in-tune. Before balance it is very difficult to play a chord in tune, it is as fundamental as quality of sound. Without balance between players and without a good balanced sound from each player any intonation issue will be very difficult to correct.

/Tom

[Ozzlefinch]

... They're enthusiastic and they have a wonderful and inspiring love of playing, but they don't take lessons ...

...What can I do?

Seems that you've answered your own question. Any barriers to you giving them lessons? Would that solve the intonation problems if you did that?

[rizzo67]

I recently had a discussion with a bass trombone player in our trombone choir, playing low D in 4th position. He never heard about other positions when using the valve. I finally resigned, as the non compensating baritone and tuba also didn't use any trigger. Perhaps it is better if all of them play too high as they play the same notes, so when I play bass I also play D on 4th.
It depends on what you expect from an ensemble. They never thought about tuning, not even once at the beginning of a rehearsal, so I decided it is not my job to change it.
I asked some of the audience and they didn't care either, so perhaps it is only my problem.

[Kbiggs]

Intonation issues in older players can be difficult (and frustrating) to change. In my limited experience with community members, people have many different responses when intonation is mentioned.

First off, if you're tasked with raising the quality of the group, ask the leader if that means teaching intonation (like in sectionals), or if it's just to play the part. Sometimes there's little point to doing more than you are asked to do.

One difficulty is that people seem to be unaware of the issue. They honestly don't know what it is like to play in tune. Learning and teaching the difference between what's it's like when you play sharp vs. flat is challenging for many community players. And as you describe, just because people can play a tuning note in tune doesn't mean they can play in tune. Teaching intonation "on the fly" is an added difficulty when there are gigs or concerts coming up.

Another difficulty is defensiveness. When some adults are challenged about deficiencies in their playing, their egos get involved. Using your best diplomatic skills to inquire about what they hear, do they know it's out of tune, how would they like to fix it, etc, will likely work better in the long run than telling them they are flat or sharp.

For an orchestra, chorales are a great way to build intonation skills. For a big band, learning to hear the difference between a b9 that is in vs. out of tune is quite difficult. Without teaching them all the ins-and-outs of harmonics and cents and just vs equal temperament etc., perhaps allowing them to slowly hear the differences by playing with one voice, then two voices, then three voices, etc., during easy passages can help. Then move on to more difficult passages.

Sometimes, it can be as easy as balancing voices in a chord. letting them know that they can play the notes without looking at the music ALL THE TIME can help them open their ears. At other times, you have to start from square one.

[CharlieB]

Many times, the only training that the musicians in these groups have had was via a public school band program.
Ear training there sometimes takes a back seat to the basics of just playing the horn and reading the music.
Trombonists are taught the fundamental slide positions relative to the bell, which they may or not execute accurately. These trombonists are now in community bands for fun. Schooling is work, not fun, so they may or may not be willing to put in the work needed to undo their bad habits. If they are willing, I would ask the band director to spring for about $20 per player for an electronic tuner. (Korg?) Then ask each player to spend some practice time learning where to place the slide accurately for each note, and teaching his muscle memory how to reliably find that spot. That's not as good as training the player to find the slide position by ear, but it's a start.

[2bobone]

" I would ask the band director to spring for about $20 per player for an electronic tuner. (Korg?)"

A cheaper solution would be a tuning app for their cellphones and would cause less resistance from the players.

[harrisonreed]

The problem is they just play out of tune. Like, all the freakin' time.

The thing that baffles me is that players don't even seem to recognize that they are out of tune.

Or if they do, they don't seem to care or to know how to fix it.

These are community players.

...they don't have good ears.

What can I do?

I'm reminded of the scene in Derry Girls, where Sister Michael hears the Glee club sing a pop song at the assembly, and she says, "well, thank you girls, it really makes you appreciate the talent ... of the professionals who originally recorded those songs."

I think this is one of those instances where you should just quietly accept the money and play in the group. You can't teach an adult to have good ears. You might be able to teach intonation, despite someone having bad ears, but not during a rehearsal. It takes 4 years to take someone who shows they have potential for music at a college audition and possibly have them be successful in instrumental music. Can you beat that formal education system informally during a rehearsal?

I'm also reminded of a thread about people being either "IN" or "OUT" of music. You can adopt that mind set... Or accept a gray area in between.

[AndrewMeronek]

It is possible to "lead by example" when intonation is all over the place in an ensemble, but it's hard. Find a couple of other people that you can reliably hear in the ensemble who also have reasonably good intonation and only tune to them. I think the main problem with a lot of people who "can't play in tune" is that they simply haven't spent enough time playing next to players who have internalized good intonation and thus have never really had a chance themselves.

Yes, it's also helpful to promote other tools that help: sectionals, tuners, chorales, etc., but those tools are pretty limited until people see the clear application of what they're practicing, with good examples.

[Cmillar]

A good session of Bach chorales should open their ears as to playing in tune.

[ghmerrill]

I've played in community bands since I was 14. I've played in three around here over a period of over 30 years -- tuba, bass trombone, and euphonium. I'm now 76 and focused on "not being that guy" (who plays out of tune). I think that some good advice has been given here. But the people you're dealing with have played out of tune for their lifetimes. And now you're going to change that? Probably not. You're not dealing with some unfortunate feature of this community band you're in. You're dealing with deeply rooted community band culture.

You can't make people (or help people) play in tune if they can't hear that they're not playing in tune. You can't train people to play in tune if they don't want to be trained or don't feel that they need to be trained. You can't make your section play in tune if the band (perhaps even as part of its charter) explicitly permits/tolerates/encourages people to join who don't/can't play in tune.

And here's another indicator you might pay attention to: How much time, and how often, and in what ways does the conductor attempt to enforce good intonation? Does he/she actually stop at times and focus on the intonation of a particular section in a particular passage? Or intonation of the bass clarinet/bari sax/low brass? Does he/she ever single out a particular player and spend a few moments with that player getting the intonation right in a specific passage? When he/she initially tunes the band at the beginning of practice, is this taken seriously and time taken to at least start with a good result? If the conductor isn't doing things like this, what does that say about the expectations and support for your own effort? You can only do so much.

[ghmerrill]

A good session of Bach chorales should open their ears as to playing in tune.

Only if they can actually hear the difference. But realistically, in many/most community bands, there will be players who simply can't hear that difference. One reason may be lack of training, but another difference may be an actual physical inability -- from hearing loss. You can MAYBE address the training problem -- at least to some degree.

You can't address the hearing loss problem. Nor can you address the problem of inability to play the correct pitch even if you know what it should be. Why do professional players retire? Often because they simply can't -- physically -- do it any longer. They can't retain the necessary embouchure -- however much they want to. This often doesn't deter the community band player. In one band I've played in it's been fairly common for players to switch instruments as they advance in age. Has it become too rough to lug that big tuba around? Then switch to euphonium. Is that euph now more than you want to handle? Then switch to trumpet? The result of taking that path is pretty predictable.

[robcat2075]

A good session of Bach chorales should open their ears as to playing in tune.

Only if they can actually hear the difference. But realistically, in many/most community bands, there will be players who simply can't hear that difference...

Yup. I think the chorale stuff is for people who are already aware and want to practice doing it better.

To the OP: If you are moved to do sectionals and they are agreeable... start from the ground floor.

Step 1: play slow, simple tunes in unison and challenge them to match your pitch

Step 2: Teach what a properly tuned 5th sounds like. Have one play a note, then you play a 5th tuned above it. Do it with each of them. Then swap and challenge them to play a fifth above (or below) your pitch.

Step 3: Thirds. Get two players sounding a well-tuned fifth and challenge another to fit the third in for a triad.

They will not "get it" by doing this once. These are sounds one learns to recognize with repeated exposure and attempts.

But people in bands are rarely exposed to a properly tuned fifth or third. How would they ever learn what one is?

[tbdana]

There is a lot of wisdom in this thread, and it caused me to think a lot more and a lot deeper about this than I had thought necessary when I initially posted it. But in the end, I think this is probably the best practical advice:

I think this is one of those instances where you should just quietly accept the money and play in the group. You can't teach an adult to have good ears. You might be able to teach intonation, despite someone having bad ears, but not during a rehearsal. It takes 4 years to take someone who shows they have potential for music at a college audition and possibly have them be successful in instrumental music. Can you beat that formal education system informally during a rehearsal?

Obviously, the answer to the rhetorical question is "no." And I think I just have to accept the below as reality:

[T]he people you're dealing with have played out of tune for their lifetimes. And now you're going to change that? Probably not. You're not dealing with some unfortunate feature of this community band you're in. You're dealing with deeply rooted community band culture.

It feels kind of defeatist to surrender to it like that, and like I'm not doing the job they are paying me to do, but I think the people who have indicated the futility of any efforts, combined with the risk of creating bad feelings have a solid point.

Community band and orchestras are for fun, they say. I try to impart, "Well, yeah, but being good is fun! And the better you are, the more fun it is!" But I think that probably rings hollow to many community players, because if they believed that to be true they'd probably already be trying to improve themselves, and for most they are not.

It feels crappy to surrender to it. But that's my problem to deal with. I suppose I'm coming into a culture that I can't change. The thing that got me was this:

And here's another indicator you might pay attention to: How much time, and how often, and in what ways does the conductor attempt to enforce good intonation? Does he/she actually stop at times and focus on the intonation of a particular section in a particular passage?

I realized that for the orchestra the conductor does these things without much in the way of results, and for the band the conductor makes zero effort and doesn't appear to care about it. So, what could I possibly accomplish in that atmosphere except to spoil people's fun?

I probably won't re-up with these gigs when the season is over. I'll just do my best to play my part well and be a cheerleader for my section when they happen to play something well.

But there is a ton of good observations and advice in this thread that I will remember. Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful responses. Good stuff!

[officermayo]

Many amateurs don't learn the fine points of tuning. I've seen cases where they don't ever pull the valve tuning slides and certainly don't understand the use of triggers or saddles on the trumpets.

Trombone players often don't understand the fact that positions can vary based on the note and even the note within the chord. Also, many can't reach far enough to play a C in 6 or B natural in 7. Not to mention "where the heck is 5th position?"

If the group wants to improve, bring some Bach Chorale or other quartet or trio pieces and spend a little time before the rehearsal doing intonation training.

If the group seems not to care, just take your stipend and shut up.

I deal with this same situation every week with the big band in which I'm lead bone.
My 3rd and 4th bone players are deaf - I mean actually can't hear. I spend most of our rehearsal time repeating what the director just said. One time the director was sitting in on 4th bone and told the 3rd player he was flat. What did Mr. 3rd bone do? He pulled out his tuning slide.

Basically, you just have to suck it up and deal with it.

[timothy42b]

A good session of Bach chorales should open their ears as to playing in tune.

There may be a more fundamental issue. (this is based on my experiences with amateur choir)

Learning to hear out of tuneness is not very useful if you can't place your own pitch in a stable slot where you want it. Try watching one of them play a note while watching one of those tuners with the visual display. I'll bet they can't keep it in the green regardless of where the horn is tuned to.

Without the basic skill of playing a steady tone, trying to move it into tune is futile.

You may be able to duplicate the feeling. Use a tuner yourself, and free buzz a pitch. Now hold that steady enough to keep the needle in the middle, without the assistance of the horn.

Don Lucas said in a seminar that you could improve intonation by singing or humming with a drone, moving very slowly a half step away, and controlling the beats. Few amateur singers can even attempt that.

[baileyman]

Sam said in a long ago thread something like, NY players snick into tune all the time. I you watch a section, they will start a note and then a little snick to adjust. Snick, snick, snick all the time.

This is second nature to me. But for someone to learn, it seems some guidance and unison practice snicking would be the thing.

[hyperbolica]

I'm in the same situation as OP. I sit in a college band as a paid mentor, plus filling out a section. I have most interaction with the euphonium section which is frighteningly awful. Sometimes I'll lean over and suggest a fingering for a note that I know is being played incorrectly. I try to be otherwise friendly so the player knows it's not just criticism, it's friendly criticism. The situation is well beyond what I can cure, and to be honest, they play so incorrectly and so loudly (with that bell pointed right in my ear) that it's sometimes difficult to tell right from wrong. It's not even just intonation, it's notes and rhythm and especially time.

All of the usual cues are somehow poisoned in this band. The percussion is maybe the worst of all, which is hard. I'm kind of wired to listen to the drums (even ahead of the conductor) for the beat. They have less to worry about, so the focus should be clearer, right? Not with this group, and I can't imagine this group is special, really. Community groups are made of the people who survive this process.

In every other situation you have learned to follow - adjust to others for the tuning and time. And then this situation where you have to concentrate specifically to NOT follow what's going on around you. It's not like "if you lead they will follow". They will almost certainly ignore you if you try to lead by example. They are concentrating so hard on reading, fingerings, chops, rhythm - all simultaneously, that they don't have time to listen and integrate. They haven't spent enough time with the instrument for all the basics to be second nature. Being able to play on your own is one thing, but ensemble playing adds layers on top, and it takes a long time to master. Sometimes we who have been through all of that forget what it took to get where we are (and to some degree it's a natural propensity for this kind of work).

[ghmerrill]

...

All good observations/remarks. However, sometimes, the reaction is not to "regress to the mean" yourself, but (if possible) find a local band that doesn't have those problems (or at least not so severely). If I can find a community band where only a couple of sections (usually the French horns and then either trumpets or high woodwinds) are really problematic, I'm pretty much okay. You really can't expect much more in organizations that don't enforce entrance requirements and are really playing for themselves rather than any audience. And keep in mind, that many community bands are much more "social organizations" than "music organizations," and a good many of them are essentially "pay to play."

I do sometimes wonder exactly what these people (who can't play in tune and who seem unable to count to four in a uniform way) enjoy about the experience they're pursuing. But then I just have to remind myself that they're looking for the social/group experience -- and not the performance/musical/achievement one. Different strokes, I guess.

[robcat2075]

Community band and orchestras are for fun, they say.

On some level it's like a seniors' bowling league.

No matter how bad anyone is, the games will still get played each week and it doesn't matter who wins because the main object is to get out and socialize.


For the OP... we're talking about three or four other trombone players?

Just ask them, "would you like to get together to work on improving our intonation?"

There will almost certainly be some reason this can not be scheduled. You're off the hook!

If they actually WANT to do this ... that would be a promising sign, maybe it's actually worth trying?

[hyperbolica]

I do sometimes wonder exactly what these people (who can't play in tune and who seem unable to count to four in a uniform way) enjoy about the experience they're pursuing. But then I just have to remind myself that they're looking for the social/group experience -- and not the performance/musical/achievement one. Different strokes, I guess.

In the college setting, it's partially social, mostly female, and kind of by definition a non-judgmental way to earn a couple of homework free credits. Plus, I think music in general is kind of attractive to a certain personality type, like a private club of people who lack confidence in themselves. Not to say musicians in general are like that, that obviously can't be true, but taking this particular college band as a sample, there is a definite type at play here. Shy, self-conscious, tentative, imprecise, not oriented to detail, but still wanting to belong.

[ghmerrill]

Interesting. My "college band" experience was somewhat different. There were no credits involved. The band played maybe a couple of concerts per year and played at each home football and hockey game, and one away football (and hockey) game. There was pretty much no benefit to being in these organizations other than being in the organization and playing the music. Every one of the band members was very serious about his/her instrument and about playing. Similarly for the orchestra. I was playing saxophone in the band and flute in the orchestra at that time.

At least 90% of the orchestra and band members were engineering/science/mathematics majors -- that being the nature of the "college". I think that made a difference. The primary percussionist was astonishingly good. After he decided to take a terminal Masters degree in physics he went to Eastman to pick up a performance degree and then became a professional musician. He's been principal percussionist of the Albany (NY) Symphony Orchestra for many years. When I was a freshman, he was, for one semester, my physics lab instructor. But I think that wasn't a normal college environment, and even less normal relative to more recent times.

(Oh, and at that time the ratio of male to female undergraduates at the school was roughly 32:1. So the musical organizations were definitely not heavily female. )

[Cmillar]

Bach chorales. (preferably with a conductor or other musician who'll stop/start and make musical commentary during rehearsal. Get a real choir conductor to come in if necessary)

They take work. But the work pays off.

Every aspect of playing in tune is covered, especially for brass players.

And, you learn how to 'create' a musical line within your own part.

Bach chorales get musicians thinking 'vertically' while playing 'horizontally'.

The best training possible. The bonus...you get to make beautiful music with other humans.

[Ozzlefinch]

...

.....

I do sometimes wonder exactly what these people (who can't play in tune and who seem unable to count to four in a uniform way) enjoy about the experience they're pursuing. But then I just have to remind myself that they're looking for the social/group experience -- and not the performance/musical/achievement one. Different strokes, I guess.

They (we) are looking for both. Face up to the reality: community band members mostly all over 50, with many in their 70's. What other options do amateur/hobbyist players have at that age? Joining a jazz band where the rest of the members are professionals in their 20's and 30's? Join an established orchestra- without references or years of conservatory training? That would be like Taylor Swift trying to be the new lead guitarist for Van Halen.

There are literally NO OTHER OPTIONS for aging amateur players who are starting to feel the effects of age: arthritis, bad hearing, slow reflexes, etc. On top of that, trombone players where I live are a dime a dozen: there's 100 applicants for each open position at least, so a moderately competent player stands no chance at all of getting a gig either professionally or semi-professionally (least of all anything that would pay money). I have 2 gigs this year both for Christmas: one at a "sing along" for mentally disabled children, and another for parent/student performance during the Christmas concert at the High School. And I'm lucky to get those. Other than that, community band is the only way to get out and perform in any meaningful context.

So what if the music ends up being a bit wonky- "these people" are still humans and deserve to do what they love, albeit if somewhat badly. I like the analogy of the senior bowling league: it's what they love to do and the best way to socialize and who cares about the score. Clearly a professional will be frustrated in a group like that, but those groups aren't meant for a professional anyways.

It appears to me that the community band you belong to is just fine. Can it improve? Of course. Maybe having a sectional over coffee or lunch twice a month will improve things (remember the importance of social interactions). Things will improve slowly, but it will never be pro-level regardless.

[harrisonreed]

It's okay to not be good if you aren't getting paid. Remember those pictures Robcat posted of people in the 1600s practicing their music? You know those people were only doing it because there literally was nothing else to do, and it was a way to interact socially with others. I think it used to be that the only way you could interact with the opposite gender was by either playing chess or through music lessons.

[tbdana]

Quick update:

I floated the idea of sectionals in both groups. It was roundly panned. Zero interest.

But one of the guys was interested in learning, so now I'm giving this 75-year old man free trombone lessons. And guess what? He's learning! I assign him Rochut etudes, and after he plays them for me I'll play them with him in unison, and he's developing his ear and learning to listen and tune! Doing this, he just discovered that every note he plays in 3rd position is sharp and that his position is short, and he's learning to adjust. It's wonderful to know that he wants to improve and that he can (and does) improve.

Of course, he goes right back into the orchestra that plays out of tune, and because there is no consensus pitch he has nothing to listen and adjust to, so he's still just as lost in that situation.

Bonus is that his tone is improving, his air stream and usage are improving, and he's learning some music theory, too. He wants to lear to improvise, so we'll be doing a long, deep dive into theory. Though he has played since high school, he can't even tell me the names of the notes in major scales, and tell me the notes in any major triad. He can read music at a fundamental level, but he plays a lot by ear. So we have a long way to go. But he's eager, and this gives him purpose.

I'm going to turn this lovely older gentleman into a trombone player, yet! This at least makes me feel like I'm earning the money they are paying me, so I don't feel so guilty and frustrated.

Side note: I got offered the opportunity to conduct a community band. I turned it down. It would be a bad pairing. However, I was asked to conduct a college orchestra next spring, and I've accepted that gig, because even if they suck these are folks who are there to learn and get better, and I can work with that.

[ghmerrill]

Face up to the reality: community band members mostly all over 50, with many in their 70's. What other options do amateur/hobbyist players have at that age? ...

There are literally NO OTHER OPTIONS for aging amateur players who are starting to feel the effects of age: arthritis, bad hearing, slow reflexes, etc. ...

Not quite. There is New Horizons: https://newhorizonsmusic.org/. And these shouldn't be confused with community bands. Their mission statements pretty much say it all: "Every person has musical potential that can be developed to a level that will be personally rewarding. ... New Horizons Music provides entry points to music-making for adults, including those with no musical experience, and those who were active in school music programs but have been inactive for a long period." But often they are well run and with good conductors. You can think of these as a kind of community band, if you like, but the vibe and specific goals are quite different in certain respects.

And by the way, lumping 50 year olds in with 70 year olds is at least as silly as lumping 6-th graders in with college seniors.

I tried one of these bands over 10 years ago -- mostly because I knew the conductor was very good and it met at a fairly convenient time for me and was easy to get to. It wasn't to my taste for several reasons that you can probably imagine. However, among the geriatric set -- and where they're available -- they're pretty popular and sometimes attract good players. Since they also often meet during normal working hours I think they're all "pay to play," and the one I was in was in fact run as a repeatable semester "course" (with required tuition) as part of one of the large local universities' program in "continuing education."

[hyperbolica]

...There are literally NO OTHER OPTIONS for aging amateur players who are starting to feel the effects of age:

Jeezis that's depressing, I hope I never have to live in that universe. We start independent chamber ensembles for people who don't want to play in community groups or just want something more challenging in addition to the community groups. I've got a quartet and a quintet with the average age probably 60s, but we have an 80 yo, a couple 70s, 2 60s, a 50s, 30s and 20s. The older musicians tend to be better players, with a better sense of style and improv. We did have one member pass away recently and another retired from playing due to health issues.

[Mamaposaune]

This is a tough one, and a pet peeve of mine. After each of my 3 kids was born and I took several months off, I got back into shape by playing in community bands. Several years later when I began private teaching, I realized that my community band sectionmates helped me to hone into what to make a priority with my young students as much as my schooling and military band experience - but for the opposite reasons.
Thinking through what makes a good section player - traits that make one player a joy to sit along side of as opposed to those who are an aural nightmare, I put the ability to play in tune at the top of the list. My students, mostly middle and high school students but currently including one adult, have to endure my constant harping on this.
Some take-aways beyond the obvious which may be a start to addressing the problem:
1) Hand position. Hand/wrist position that is either too stiff or too floppy won't allow for accuracy or adjustment. I've seen kids who are easily able to reach 7th position, but consistently play 6th closer to 5th in a moving passage because they have no flex in their wrist.
2) Are their slides in good repair, and do they know how to properly maintain it? Self-explanatory....
3) Do they have a basic knowledge of music theory? If you can do sectionals, you could try excercises such as playing a scale, slowly, in unison, not moving to the next note until it is in tune, then moving on to major and minor chords within the scale focusing on intonation and balance.
4) I can appreciate the challenge it must be working with adults and being in a position of "teacher" - as I'm sure you realize, you have to walk a fine line, improving the sound of the section while ensuring that the reason they are there - to make music, but also have fun and socialize - stays intact.

[Kbiggs]

Quick update:

I floated the idea of sectionals in both groups. It was roundly panned. Zero interest.

But one of the guys was interested in learning, so now I'm giving this 75-year old man free trombone lessons. And guess what? He's learning! I assign him Rochut etudes, and after he plays them for me I'll play them with him in unison, and he's developing his ear and learning to listen and tune! Doing this, he just discovered that every note he plays in 3rd position is sharp and that his position is short, and he's learning to adjust. It's wonderful to know that he wants to improve and that he can (and does) improve.

Of course, he goes right back into the orchestra that plays out of tune, and because there is no consensus pitch he has nothing to listen and adjust to, so he's still just as lost in that situation.

Bonus is that his tone is improving, his air stream and usage are improving, and he's learning some music theory, too. He wants to lear to improvise, so we'll be doing a long, deep dive into theory. Though he has played since high school, he can't even tell me the names of the notes in major scales, and tell me the notes in any major triad. He can read music at a fundamental level, but he plays a lot by ear. So we have a long way to go. But he's eager, and this gives him purpose.

I'm going to turn this lovely older gentleman into a trombone player, yet! This at least makes me feel like I'm earning the money they are paying me, so I don't feel so guilty and frustrated.

Side note: I got offered the opportunity to conduct a community band. I turned it down. It would be a bad pairing. However, I was asked to conduct a college orchestra next spring, and I've accepted that gig, because even if they suck these are folks who are there to learn and get better, and I can work with that.

I also forget to ask basic questions like, “Is there any interest in sectionals?,” before I start formulating a plan. All the time, energy, and worry can be resolved with one basic question. I’m still learning that.

I’m glad it’s working out well for you and the 75-year-old student.

[ghmerrill]

... I put the ability to play in tune at the top of the list.

Spot-on. But I think I would elaborate by adding "play in tune with the section/ensemble" (rather than some "standard" of pitch). And I think that's what you mean. I'd also emphasize "And LISTEN to one another." I've played in tuba sections (fairly small: 1 to 3 of us) that were always amazingly in tune because we listened to each other, and it was a pleasure. I've also played in trombone sections that were good because of that. Euphonium sections I've played in ... er ... not so much (for several reasons).

It disturbs me to be sitting in a section with two or three other players, and they each have a tuner on their stands (sometimes with a bell mic to the horn!) and are constantly eyeballing their intonation as they play. And these are not novice players -- over time and the development of technology have come to believe that you can only know that you're "playing in tune" if the tuner says you are (which, of course, it never really does ). And some conductors encourage this.

[Doug Elliott]

Tuners can help train your ear to hear what IS correct, and to find where 5th position really is, etc. but ultimately they have to learn to hear it in context.
Maybe the idea of "sectionals" should be presented differently. Tell them you have some trios or quartets you want to play. They'd probably be more interested after they try it once.
What's not to love about trombone quartets?