Extra "swishy" noise when articulating

[Jbortz]

Hi everyone, new to the forum but not trombone. I'm working on fixing some issues on trombone that I've neglected throughout my undergrad and am running into an issue neither I nor my teacher seem to know exactly how to fix. I'm currently in the process of changing the way I articulate from the way I initially learned (hopefully correct this time). The issue is: when articulating a note I'm getting extra sounds from the tongue moving in the mouth. It happens primarily when moving from the "ah" to the "t" when the air is kept moving. So if I'm playing legato or articulated without space, the end of every note (or just before I start the next note) has some "swishy" sounds. I've experimented a ton over the past few weeks but I can't seem to find anything that works.
I hope this makes sense, it's a bit hard to explain. let me know if you have any ideas, thanks!

[AtomicClock]

I'm noticing the same thing in my legato tonguing. (I probably have done it my whole life, but never paid attention.) I did a test recording. It is not noticeable there, just in my ears. I think it is being conducted through the body rather than the air.

I hear a change in tone (extra high harmonics) as the tongue rises, and then, after the tongue contacts, some squishy sounds as the tongue deforms to match the roof of the mouth.

It's got me trying out different articulation syllables. Dah-dah-dah is very different from ada-ada-ada (from Adam or madam).

[harrisonreed]

I hear this a lot in players who are going for that "covered, legato" tonguing. I think it eventually becomes a debilitating habit that is present in all their articulations. I've never understood the quest to sound pretty, at the expense of sounding like mush. A lot of these cases might improve if they just used a harder articulation.

This might not exactly be the case with your issue, and there is a whole spectrum of articulation issues that we all deal with at some point. It would help if you could do a recording.

[Doug Elliott]

Quite common.
There a lot of different ways to articulate and it will take a bit of experimenting to find something that sounds clean.
Part of the solution may be to keep continuous air flow while articulating... never use air to articulate.

[AtomicClock]

never use air to articulate.

I don't stop the air, but I unintentionally lower the amount of air during the articulation. Something else I just discovered I need to work on. The new note gets proper air support, but not right away.

[Jbortz]

The issue only happens when the air is kept moving through the whole process, if I play staccato or put any space between notes it goes away. Similar to what AtomicClock described, the main sound occurs when the tongue contacts the roof of the mouth. If the tongue starts at the roof of the mouth, before the air, I consistently get a clean articulation. Tonguing harder tends to make it more pronounced. I'll try to record a video sometime tomorrow.

[baileyman]

Try accentuating the sound and maybe its cause will show up. And try earplugs that will make it louder in your ears, perhaps leading to solution.

[Doug Elliott]

There are different styles of tongue motion, and that can affect the articulation sound.
Some people do a forward and backward motion to articulate.
Some people do a more up and down motion.
Try paying more attention to where the tip is when you're holding a note, and find where you get the best sound.
Try articulating farther back on the top of your mouth.
Try articulating slightly to the right or left and see if that cleans it up.

[Kbiggs]

This is a long shot, but:

Do you feel like you have a build up of air behind the tongue when you articulate? As in, do you ever get explosive attacks?

Does your tongue get tired or feel stiff, even after a brief exercise or etude?

[JeffBone44]

There are different styles of tongue motion, and that can affect the articulation sound.
Some people do a forward and backward motion to articulate.
Some people do a more up and down motion.
Try paying more attention to where the tip is when you're holding a note, and find where you get the best sound.
Try articulating farther back on the top of your mouth.
Try articulating slightly to the right or left and see if that cleans it up.

I tried articulating farther back on the top of my mouth. It seemed to help the high register. My articulations have always been a bit harsh up there. It's cleaner than before with the tongue in the different spot, and seemed easier to play up there too. I've always felt like my tongue has gotten in the way of my upper register, and this gets it out of the way. However, this technique did not work in the low range, so I feel like for lower register my tongue is already where it needs to be.

[Jbortz]

This is a long shot, but:

Do you feel like you have a build up of air behind the tongue when you articulate? As in, do you ever get explosive attacks?

Does your tongue get tired or feel stiff, even after a brief exercise or etude?

Maybe yes to the buildup of air? I don't think I would describe any explosive attacks but it does feel like the air catches a bit behind the tongue. I haven't experienced my tongue getting tired though.

[Kbiggs]

This is a long shot, but:

Do you feel like you have a build up of air behind the tongue when you articulate? As in, do you ever get explosive attacks?

Does your tongue get tired or feel stiff, even after a brief exercise or etude?

Maybe yes to the buildup of air? I don't think I would describe any explosive attacks but it does feel like the air catches a bit behind the tongue. I haven't experienced my tongue getting tired though.

Then it’s likely you aren’t developing a dysfunction like a valsalva maneuver. That’s good news!