Courtois's Icon valve?

[Digidog]

It has come to my attention that Courtois somewhat recently has introduced a new valve, called "Icon".

Does anybody know anything about that valve? Has anybody played an "Icon" fitted Courtois? If so, what was it like?

I am on the lookout for bigger tenor horn than my 3B+, so I'm interested in thoughts and opinions on something like a new valve. I have tried to look for more info about the "Icon" valve, but results are meagre.

Maybe I have - as was the case with carbon fiber bass trombones - chronically poor googling chops.....(?)

Maybe this "Icon" valve has been around for long, and I just have been misgoogling all the time?

[GabrielRice]

https://www.a-courtois.com/en/instrumen ... ion-paris/

[JohnL]

Not sure how long this link will be active, but here's a some pics of the valve, including a comparison with a "conventional" rotary valve:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUkY1ZpUYAIUonU.jpg

[Burgerbob]

They are relatively new. They play very, very well.

[MrHCinDE]

The ICON valve has been around on B&S instruments for quite a while now, seems sensible that they also moved it to Courtois, being in the same group.

[Posaunus]

The ICON valve has been around on B&S instruments for quite a while now, seems sensible that they also moved it to Courtois, being in the same group.

Very interesting video. (Impressive, articulate presenter!)

Buffet Crampon is a force to be reckoned with!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffet_Crampon

The musical instrument manufacturing business in Markneukirchen (a town in Eastern Germany, near the Czech border) puts Elkhart to shame!

"Markneukirchen is the main town of the small musical instrument-making region, known for four centuries for high quality brass, woodwind and string instruments. Within this small locality, 113 different enterprises are involved in making musical instruments. They rely on traditional methods but sell all over the world.

"The town's instrument-making history stems from the 17th century arrival of a group of Protestants fleeing religious persecution across the border in Bohemia. Among them were some who already practised the instrument trade.
By the 1900s, 80 percent of the world's musical instruments were made in this small town."
[Wikipedia]

[bassbone1993]

I'd be really curious to try one, whether on the Paris model or the B&S trombones. Maybe they'll have a courtois bass version with them? Would certainly give them a few more options than their hagmann, standard rotor, and New York bass (over 9k). Not sure if they're still planning on having a creation bass model other than the New York with Stefan Schulz switching over to Shires.

[MrHCinDE]

There‘s a B&S MS27 available with these valves for about 8000€

[Posaunus]

There‘s a B&S MS27 available with these valves for about 8000€

That would make a nice Christmas present! Only ~US$8,650 (+ shipping)!

[MrHCinDE]

Yes, nice little stocking filler

[Bach5G]

$11756.23 CDN.

Plus GST.

[bassbone1993]

Thomann has their sarastro bass as 7700 USD, probably a few hundred more for shipping.

[LowBrassJunkie]

The valve was designed to reduce weight while increasing efficiency. The weight was cut by about a 1/3 compared to their traditional rotor, with the valve becoming much more responsive.

[MrHCinDE]

Here‘s an interview with the B&S product manager about how and why it was developed.

https://www.ipvnews.de/fileadmin/Einze ... nzeige.pdf

For non-German-speakers, you can upload the pdf to google translate.

I have to correct myself from an earlier post, seems the ICON was first deployed on a Courtois horn, so it isn‘t a case of moving it over to Courtois at a later date.

[tbonesullivan]

Sounds interesting! It has been very enlightening watching the trombone world move to Axial Flow valves, with Hagmann valves coming in somewhat later, and then the CL2000 valve and a few rarer designs like the V-valve and Miller valve. Then at some point the "improved" rotary valve started appearing, probably with Greenhoe one of the first, and then many other valves made along the same type of idea of a light weight full bore rotor. I'm actually amazed that there have been so many different ways to implement the design, such as the CR valve from Kanstul.

I'd be curious to try one of these out, and see how they stack up against other improved rotors.

[JasonDonnelly]

The valve and the horns they are attached to are really great. I haven't tried the Sarastro with the Icon valves but the version with the standard valves is excellent. At ITF they had one tenor with the Icon and one with their standard valve - I preferred the Icon.

[timbone]

This valve was primarily designed by Ferdinand kleinschmidt who is chief engineer for B&S, Meinl Weston, and now (since 2013) Courtois. I knew it took a while for them to get the patent straightened out. The point of this was because the Hagmann valves were getting harder to get; Renee had slowed down his production and it was increasingly difficult to maintain a forecast of an instrument because of unavailability of parts. So, the Germans are able to build almost everything so they can control production, therefore the ICON valve was designed, and making it in house allowed to keep costs down. So today you have three choices- standard rotor which is quite good, the icon or Hagmann, and of course there are cost differences and playing preferences. I played an AC422 with the valve this past June. They quality and manufacturing is great as you should expect. If anyone is interested, call Buffet in Jacksonville and speak to Warren Kus about a tryout.

[Digidog]

This valve was primarily designed by Ferdinand kleinschmidt who is chief engineer for B&S, Meinl Weston, and now (since 2013) Courtois. I knew it took a while for them to get the patent straightened out. The point of this was because the Hagmann valves were getting harder to get; Renee had slowed down his production and it was increasingly difficult to maintain a forecast of an instrument because of unavailability of parts. So, the Germans are able to build almost everything so they can control production, therefore the ICON valve was designed, and making it in house allowed to keep costs down. So today you have three choices- standard rotor which is quite good, the icon or Hagmann, and of course there are cost differences and playing preferences. I played an AC422 with the valve this past June. They quality and manufacturing is great as you should expect. If anyone is interested, call Buffet in Jacksonville and speak to Warren Kus about a tryout.

This is great info; thanks! I'm about to visit a friend in Alte Stugi in January, and am elaborating plans to try as many trombones as possible - without abandoning my cellist friend - and stop by the Hölle workshop, and maybe, maybe arrange a horn-tryout at Musik Bertram - if that is even possible. (I realize there are a lot of maybes here, but I assume that January will be somewhat deviod of gigs, so I can get some consecutive time to spend on a visit, not just a stop-by.)

They are relatively new. They play very, very well.

What were your elaborated impressions? Did you play the valve on a bass or a tenor (I assume a tenor)?

Do they even exist in larger bores?

[timbone]

I played it on the tenor. It slots like a Greenhoe or rotax, more open than a standard rotor. I don't recall it for bass yet.

[Burgerbob]

I played it on the B&S Meistersinger tenor. It was noticeable better than the "normal" rotor example next to it.

They are also offered on the Meistersinger bass, which is a worrying prospect... I play the "normal" rotor version of that. They didn't have one at ITF, sadly.

The Vienna Philharmonic bass trombonist plays the Icon version of the Meistersinger, FWIW.

[Digidog]

I played it on the B&S Meistersinger tenor. It was noticeable better than the "normal" rotor example next to it.

They are also offered on the Meistersinger bass, which is a worrying prospect...

"Worrying" as in it could be a serious case of TAS (Trombone Acquiring Syndrome)?

I am intrigued by this new valve, as the manufacturer, to its claims of great flow and quick throw, also says it's light.

[Tobi74H]

I bought the B&S Sarastro with the ICON valves in June 2022. I am still happy with them. I tried all the valve manufacturers before I bought them: Rotax, Thayer, Hagmann, Shires TruBore. In the end, I wanted to buy a bass with Rotax valves because the master instrument maker I trusted warned me about possible maintenance problems with Thayer and Hagmann.

I tried the B&S Sarastro with both the "normal" rotary valve and the ICON. In my opinion, the ICON reacts much faster, especially in fast runs. And the sound with both valves pressed is amazing.

A colleague plays the same model of Sarastro with normal valves and says he finds no significant difference.

As always, everyone has to find out for themselves how they get on with the ICONS. In Germany, B&S trombones are very common, but Courtois are also becoming increasingly popular. Both brands are made by Buffet Crampon in Germany, as has been mentioned several times in the chat.