Instrument Innovations rotary valve question

[dhession2231]

Hello all,

I am considering buying a Bach 42BO and am aware of the shortcomings of the rotor valve on these instruments. I have looked on the instrument innovations site for their valves and have come to two questions:

1) the 90/90 and 90/180 are for closed and open wrap respectivly right?

2) When buying one of these rotors, does the factory bach lever work with it, or will I need to also buy a lever? on top of that, does the rotor come with the lever?

Its also worth noting that I'm not 100% sold on a Bach 42BO specifically. If there are other reccomendations, I'm open to hearing them.

Thanks

[Finetales]

1) the 90/90 and 90/180 are for closed and open wrap respectivly right?

Open wraps can have either 90/90 or 90/180 ports - modern open wraps are usually 90/90. But 90/180 would be the correct configuration for a 42BO.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Bach factory levers can be modified to work with aftermarket valves.

I am not a fan of the Bach open wrap for a couple of reasons:

1. The “S” section is oversized by .031 inch. It is from the Bach 50 open wrap.

2. The Bach open wrap sticks out too far behind the player. This makes it vulnerable to dents, bending etc…

[WGWTR180]

Considering your last statement should you spend the time and money on this conversion?

[GabrielRice]

By "aware of the shortcomings," do you mean you've played one and didn't like it? Played many of them and didn't like them?

With a Bach especially, what's important is to play the instrument you're going to buy. They vary a lot, and sometimes the problems are not in the valve at all. A stock Bach can be a wonderful instrument.

I recently bought a 42B for my occasional tenor gigs. It started as a closed wrap and somebody did a custom open wrap, keeping the factory valve. It plays great - no need to sub in a different valve at all. There were a couple of other customized 42s on the wall of that shop at the same time, one with a Thayer valve and the other with a modern rotary valve from a highly reputable shop; I did not like either of them.

If you have the cash to speculate you can learn a lot...just yesterday I received a single valve Bach 50B from the mid 70s. Very clean, looks like it actually hasn't been played a whole lot. The bell is beautiful - resonant and colorful - and the factory rotary valve and original closed wrap play absolutely great...as long as I use a different slide. There is something desperately wrong with the slide; it sounds and feel stuffy and plays about 30 cents flat. The spit valve cork is intact and seals, and there's nothing obviously wrong to the eye. My guess is that there's a solder blob down in the crook.

My point is this: if I had bought this instrument and played it as it came, I probably would have assumed the valve was leaky and needed to be replaced, and I would have spent a couple of thousand dollars to do that and still had a terrible instrument. If you're not in the position to speculate and experiment, it's that much more important to try before you buy.

[Kbiggs]

I have Instrument Innovations rotors on my 42B and 50B3. They are in the 90-90 configuration. I like them best of all the different valves and horns I’ve had… so far!

The valve tubing wrap isn’t dependent on the valve configuration. If you are thinking of “transplanting” a valve and keeping the valve tubing intact, then you’d still need a tech to disassemble and re-assemble the tubing to fit the new valve, adjust the braces, and do whatever magic it is that techs do.

Custom makers can bend tubing in all sorts of ways. If you’re replacing the valve and the tubing, you can make the wrap open, closed, semi-open, whatever you want. It depends on how much you want to spend.

You can probably adapt Bach levers to use with an Instrument Innovations valve. Instrument Innovations have lever kits.

[Posaunus]

viewtopic.php?t=33825

[dhession2231]

By "aware of the shortcomings," do you mean you've played one and didn't like it? Played many of them and didn't like them?

By this I meant I have tried about four Bach 42B's and have also spend some time on this webiste reading about models of trombones and their common shortcomings. I have yet to find one that is a snug fit for me, which is why my original post says I am not 100% sold on the 42 yet.

I dont have a ton of money to do what you outlined, but have taken my time to make sure I play test instrumens throughly when I get a chance. The opprotunities are a bit sparse up in Maine so I understand to do more in depth testing, I likely have to travel to Mass or NJ. This is not a big deal, I have just yet to do it due to work


In regards to WGWTR180's statement, it is debatable whether or not the question is worth spending time on considering my lack of dedication to a specific model of trombone, but I have a more informed understanding of the innovations rotarty valve now that can be applied to whatever instrument I choose to buy.

Thank you all for the contrubition, it the whole system of rotors/triggers makes a lot more sense.

[vetsurginc]

I have a 1973 42BO that I have been playing for years. Love the sound and it fits all the symphonic playing I do. The valve became so leaky it was a problem, and per the tech,, so corroded only a new core would cure it. Since I knew it was a good horn sound wise I put an Instrument Innovations valve on it. This is a much more open playing valve than the original.

A good 42 is worth the expenditure to save. It's now my favorite large tenor. My Getzen IB 4147 is now my backup horn.

[BoNeLife]

I just did this conversion for a SF Bay Area pro. The Bach’s have some quirks, but the innovations rotor is significantly better than the 42 rotor. Neck pipe is around .530”
The threads are more fine than the Bach linkage threads. I’d strongly consider the innovations lever kit. Very solid

[hornbuilder]

I (M&W Custom Trombones) offer conversions using my own valve design (which I make and fit myself) here are 2 examples of what can be done. Note that I also draw my own goosenecks, to suit the appropriate dimensions of the new valve, which are included in the conversion process.

[Elow]

Yes, get the neck pipe changed, my MV has a Rotax and has kept the original neck pipe… I wish it got changed in the process. I’m not sure if that’s the only contributor but it is still on the “compact” side.

[Matt K]

I just did this conversion for a SF Bay Area pro. The Bach’s have some quirks, but the innovations rotor is significantly better than the 42 rotor. Neck pipe is around .530”
The threads are more fine than the Bach linkage threads. I’d strongly consider the innovations lever kit. Very solid

I love that solution to the closed wrap wrap.

[BoNeLife]

Thanks, It ended up being extremely solid.