Stolen Greg Black mouthpiece

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Sat May 27, 2017 8:05 am

I have contacted eBay and they are taking over. Next step is I am getting a police report. I wish it didn't have to go this far.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sat May 27, 2017 9:11 am

The Post Office Inspector General website notes that lost mail is auctioned off at a site in Atlanta.

"In fiscal year (FY) 2014, the MRC received 88 million items and processed 12 million of those valued at $25 or more. It returned 2.5 million items to customers a resolution rate of 21 percent of researched items, or 3 percent of total incoming items. For mailpieces valued at $25 or more without a valid address, the MRC retains them for 30, 60, 90, or 180 days, depending on the mail class or special services used. Customers can file an inquiry about a lost mailpiece, and then employees search to try to match an inquiry with an undelivered item."

Supposedly, with insured mail you have up to 180 days to file. However, I don't think that works if the item falls out of its packaging. In those cases, I believe the item would just be put into the auction bin. How was the mouthpiece packaged?

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Sat May 27, 2017 9:44 am

Standard priority mail box.

ttf_amichael · Post by **ttf_amichael** » Sat May 27, 2017 4:33 pm

.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Sat May 27, 2017 5:02 pm

My wife contacted him since he wouldn't answer me.
New message from: jandgdeals (83)

That is fine. We need the proof, instead of other people telling us what to do. We have no problem with returning the item, once the police and eBay has told us to, if they have the proper paperwork. We have never stolen anything, and certainly didn't steal this item. And we don't appreciate your friend's slandering us because of this, on forums. This should have been taken care of in the way you have decided to do today.

So she emailed him back with my email so I can provide him proof. Let's see if he does the right thing.
Also thanks to everyone who has contacted them... eBay told me that they saw 5 people messaging him to get this back to me.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Sat May 27, 2017 6:11 pm

eBay has its own reputation to think about here. The seller wasn't slandered at all. Is it that hard to do a name search on the mouthpiece?

ttf_gregs70 · Post by **ttf_gregs70** » Sat May 27, 2017 6:17 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on May 26, 2017, 06:13PMThen the post office owned it to do as they saw fit when it was found. You were paid. You can't say it was stolen from you.

I agree. If the vendor bought it at a post office auction, they are the legal owners and have no obligation to do anything to help you. It was not stolen, so I can't see the police making a report indicating a crime since there was none. I'm just hoping the vendor goes beyond his legal obligation to help you out, which is zero, and helps you out anyway. At minimum you should give the vendor the $50 you got from the post office plus shipping.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Sat May 27, 2017 7:19 pm

I haven't gotten anything from the post office... they said that I had to wait until June. Please read what I said. So no the buyer is not in the wrong.. the PO messed up. I wish he would let me just buy it.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat May 27, 2017 7:41 pm

Yes this is definitely on the post office. You probably could take the USPS to small claims court. You may even be able to claim damages. That would be a civil suit and separate from the criminal case. The threshold for victory In a civil suit is much lower (reasonable doubt).

The USPS might not be criminally negligent but may lose a civil suit. It would depend on. What the investigation turns up. Not sure if the police would do it over an object only worth $200 even though the personal value is much higher after all.

Even if this person has proof of purchase it still may be possible for it to be seized. Ie. Pawnshops can't buy hot goods and claim they didn't know.

It depends on how it ended up in this person's hand. Nobody as far as I know is claiming that they stole it. But that doesn't mean that the USPS handled the situation legally.

Related: https://www.quora.com/How-do-pawnbrokers-verify-that-the-item-pawned-is-not-stolen

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat May 27, 2017 7:48 pm

To clarify: since the package was a USPS box then either way USPS was the weak link in the chain. The box was either defective or an employee mishandled it in a negligent way (even if not intentionally). They might have some legalese to protect themselves. Whether or not it's worth contacting a lawyer over is perhaps another matter though.

ttf_gregs70 · Post by **ttf_gregs70** » Sat May 27, 2017 7:51 pm

Quote from: Matt K on May 27, 2017, 07:41PMYes this is definitely on the post office. You probably could take the USPS to small claims court. You may even be able to claim damages. That would be a civil suit and separate from the criminal case. The threshold for victory In a civil suit is much lower (reasonable doubt).

The USPS might not be criminally negligent but may lose a civil suit. It would depend on. What the investigation turns up. Not sure if the police would do it over an object only worth $200 even though the personal value is much higher after all.

Even if this person has proof of purchase it still may be possible for it to be seized. Ie. Pawnshops can't buy hot goods and claim they didn't know.

It depends on how it ended up in this person's hand. Nobody as far as I know is claiming that they stole it. But that doesn't mean that the USPS handled the situation legally.

Related: https://www.quora.com/How-do-pawnbrokers-verify-that-the-item-pawned-is-not-stolen

If the USPS lost it, and Priority Mail has $50 insurance for loss and they paid it, they legally did what they had to. Any suit against the USPS would be fruitless.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Sat May 27, 2017 8:28 pm

Quote from: gregs70 on May 27, 2017, 07:51PMIf the USPS lost it, and Priority Mail has $50 insurance for loss and they paid it, they legally did what they had to. Any suit against the USPS would be fruitless.

Nope. Zach hasn't been paid. WHERE did you read that he had been paid? WHERE?

ttf_amichael · Post by **ttf_amichael** » Sat May 27, 2017 9:52 pm

.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Sat May 27, 2017 10:06 pm

He is not working with me at all. He says eBay has to tell him to stop selling it. And eBay said they can only do two things... take the auction down or suspend his account. Neither of those things lead to me getting the piece back. So I just hope they don't shut the auction down and I hope that I win it.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun May 28, 2017 4:01 am

Quote from: gregs70 on May 27, 2017, 07:51PMIf the USPS lost it, and Priority Mail has $50 insurance for loss and they paid it, they legally did what they had to. Any suit against the USPS would be fruitless.

We actually dont know if the USPS lost it or if it was intentional negligence by an employee. Employees can't just walk off with a product like that and as other have said, they have to wait a certain time period to sell it off. Something is either fishy or really incompetent here.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun May 28, 2017 4:18 am

Quote from: Matt K on Yesterday at 04:01 AMWe actually dont know if the USPS lost it or if it was intentional negligence by an employee. Employees can't just walk off with a product like that and as other have said, they have to wait a certain time period to sell it off. Something is either fishy or really incompetent here.

No? A new computer made it all the way from Texas to about 5 miles away from my house before it was "lost in transit". I guess it must have just made it to the distribution hub before the shipping label fell off.

The National Association for Shoplifting Prevention estimates that product theft causes $13 billion in annual losses.

The damage done by employee theft is the cause of one-third of the business bankruptcies in the United States, according to the International Foundation for Protection Officers website.

Maybe I have watched too many "Fast And Furious" movies, but it's easy to imagine whole truckloads of merch getting heisted and fenced as large lots in the underground economy.

Anyways, I hope the OP gets it back. But apparently he will have to pay. The auction is currently listed at $158.50. But if it's a prototype and a good one at that - the money he will have to spend to buy it back should be a drop in the bucket, if it doesn't get "lost in the mail" again on it's way to him.

...Geezer, The Little Ray of Sunshine

ttf_jbeckett · Post by **ttf_jbeckett** » Sun May 28, 2017 4:27 am

Quote from: HouBassTrombone on May 27, 2017, 05:02PMMy wife contacted him since he wouldn't answer me.
New message from: jandgdeals (83)

That is fine. We need the proof, instead of other people telling us what to do. We have no problem with returning the item, once the police and eBay has told us to, if they have the proper paperwork. We have never stolen anything, and certainly didn't steal this item. And we don't appreciate your friend's slandering us because of this, on forums. This should have been taken care of in the way you have decided to do today.

So she emailed him back with my email so I can provide him proof. Let's see if he does the right thing.
Also thanks to everyone who has contacted them... eBay told me that they saw 5 people messaging him to get this back to me.

"Slandering". I guess they don't have a dictionary. It's a shame , and that's all I'll say.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun May 28, 2017 6:36 am

I see they just ended the auction, so I assume Zach is getting his mouthpiece back.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Sun May 28, 2017 6:48 am

It looks like the auction was taken down. Either by the seller or eBay.
The seller contacted me and I have offered to pay $158.50 plus shipping (that is what the auction was up to) to get the piece back. He asked for an invoice and I sent him the one from Greg.
I am just happy that it went from something lost to something that I can get back.
I will keep you guys posted as everything gets resolved.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sun May 28, 2017 8:05 am

Quote from: jbeckett on Yesterday at 04:27 AM"Slandering". I guess they don't have a dictionary. It's a shame , and that's all I'll say.

I have to agree with you. Written statements like:

Quote from: jbeckett on May 25, 2017, 12:48PMIt's amazing people sell items that aren't theirs. Morals have gone.

are not "slander."

They're "libel."

It's sounding more and more like he picked it up at an auction. He lives near the place where these auctions take place. The auctioned items are large boxes and one isn't even allowed to poke around in them before bidding. I believe he legitimately purchased the item, and I think it's unfair to say that the item isn't his. It looks like he got it through an error on the part of USPS, but that doesn't make him a thief or an immoral person. He's not being particularly nice, but that's a different story.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure he's reading this thread. Do you think the attacks are making it easier for Zach to get his mouthpiece back?

ttf_gregs70 · Post by **ttf_gregs70** » Sun May 28, 2017 11:09 am

Quote from: schlitzbeer on May 27, 2017, 08:28PMNope. Zach hasn't been paid. WHERE did you read that he had been paid? WHERE?

"I haven't even collected that yet. In fact, I was told I needed to wait until June to get that claim." OK he hasn't been paid, but the PO agreed to pay.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Sun May 28, 2017 12:12 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Yesterday at 04:18 AMThe National Association for Shoplifting Prevention estimates that product theft causes $13 billion in annual losses.
The damage done by employee theft is the cause of one-third of the business bankruptcies in the United States, according to the International Foundation for Protection Officers website.
.Quote from: Euphanasia on Yesterday at 08:05 AMIt's sounding more and more like he picked it up at an auction. He lives near the place where these auctions take place. The auctioned items are large boxes and one isn't even allowed to poke around in them before bidding. I believe he legitimately purchased the item, and I think it's unfair to say that the item isn't his. It looks like he got it through an error on the part of USPS, but that doesn't make him a thief or an immoral person. He's not being particularly nice, but that's a different story.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure he's reading this thread. Do you think the attacks are making it easier for Zach to get his mouthpiece back?

Zach made him a reasonable offer to reclaim his property. Probably more expedient too. I hope the seller is reading. It's pretty sketchy to get an item from usps at an auction, while there's a claim outstanding on that item, and it's personalized with his name on it.. So no, I don't think he purchased it legitimately.

Quote from: gregs70 on Yesterday at 11:09 AM"I haven't even collected that yet. In fact, I was told I needed to wait until June to get that claim." OK he hasn't been paid, but the PO agreed to pay.

Paying for a claim on a loss does not preclude the rightful owner from pursuing additional recovery. Does he have the money in hand? Well wish with one hand, and crap in the other....

For gags and giggles, I'd ban the seller from my auctions. But I doubt he reads anything I'd be selling. jandgdeals , ? It's tempting just to turn him into eBay for fraud and let them sort it out.

ttf_crazytrombonist505 · Sun May 28, 2017 12:19 pm

Quote from: HouBassTrombone on Yesterday at 06:48 AMIt looks like the auction was taken down. Either by the seller or eBay.
The seller contacted me and I have offered to pay $158.50 plus shipping (that is what the auction was up to) to get the piece back. He asked for an invoice and I sent him the one from Greg.
I am just happy that it went from something lost to something that I can get back.
I will keep you guys posted as everything gets resolved.

Hope you can get this resolved and get the mouthpiece back! Please do let us know how it turns out

Zach

ttf_jbeckett · Post by **ttf_jbeckett** » Sun May 28, 2017 6:45 pm

It's not libel if it's true.
The mouthpiece is Zacks. I'm glad he got it back. Here here to people doing the right thing.
And euph, I don't even know you, and none of us know the situations behind this whole ordeal, but if his had happened to you, I'd have gone to the same effort to getting your goods back if I could. You don't know what's truth, and neither do i, But, when tons of trombonist brothers (fellowship of the slide) try to help another brother out, I don't think anyone is knowingly spreading lies or defamation. The sellers tone sucked and it seemed like they had done something like this before because they knew all the words to say. They've sold less items on eBay than I have and supposedly have been doing business on eBay for years. Hence my comment.
I went to bat for Zack, and I don't even know him personally, and I think it worked in the end.
If the "seller" is reading this thread, I hope he/she realizes that we all cheered them to do what was right. I'm glad they sold it to zack for less than I thought they would.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Tue May 30, 2017 7:09 am

Quote from: jbeckett on May 28, 2017, 06:45PMIt's not libel if it's true.
The mouthpiece is Zacks. I'm glad he got it back. Here here to people doing the right thing.
And euph, I don't even know you, and none of us know the situations behind this whole ordeal, but if his had happened to you, I'd have gone to the same effort to getting your goods back if I could.

1) As far as I know, Zach didn't get his mouthpiece back. He just made an offer.
2) If I were in a situation like this, I wouldn't appreciate having other people antagonize the person who was holding my property. I don't see you going to any lengths to get Zach's goods back. I see you attacking the person who currently has the mouthpiece. Justified or not, I don't see how it's helping.

ttf_sonicsilver · Post by **ttf_sonicsilver** » Tue May 30, 2017 8:50 am

If (<- if is the important word here) an insurer pays out for a lost item, it belongs to the insurer, not the original owner. So the piece became the property of USPS who disposed of it as they wished, at a sell-off. The eBay seller looks like someone who trades in stuff bought at USPS sell-offs, so it's fair to assume he acquired it legally, in the absence of any indication to the contrary. It would not be Zach's mouthpiece any more.

However... there is an issue with timescale here. If Zach hasn't yet received his insurance payout, has USPS yet taken ownership of the item? Also on the theme of timescale, it seems odd that the piece was lost and sold off in such a short time. Usually we would expect lost items to sit in a storeroom for a while before disposal.

The two morals of the story here are 1) package your stuff very strongly and 2) insure it for the full amount.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 30, 2017 9:08 am

Quote from: sonicsilver on May 30, 2017, 08:50AMIf (<- if is the important word here) an insurer pays out for a lost item, it belongs to the insurer, not the original owner. So the piece became the property of USPS who disposed of it as they wished, at a sell-off. The eBay seller looks like someone who trades in stuff bought at USPS sell-offs, so it's fair to assume he acquired it legally, in the absence of any indication to the contrary. It would not be Zach's mouthpiece any more.

However... there is an issue with timescale here. If Zach hasn't yet received his insurance payout, has USPS yet taken ownership of the item? Also on the theme of timescale, it seems odd that the piece was lost and sold off in such a short time. Usually we would expect lost items to sit in a storeroom for a while before disposal.

Exactly.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Tue May 30, 2017 10:28 am

Quote from: sonicsilver on May 30, 2017, 08:50AMIf (<- if is the important word here) an insurer pays out for a lost item, it belongs to the insurer, not the original owner. So the piece became the property of USPS who disposed of it as they wished, at a sell-off. The eBay seller looks like someone who trades in stuff bought at USPS sell-offs, so it's fair to assume he acquired it legally, in the absence of any indication to the contrary. It would not be Zach's mouthpiece any more.

However... there is an issue with timescale here. If Zach hasn't yet received his insurance payout, has USPS yet taken ownership of the item? Also on the theme of timescale, it seems odd that the piece was lost and sold off in such a short time. Usually we would expect lost items to sit in a storeroom for a while before disposal.

The two morals of the story here are 1) package your stuff very strongly and 2) insure it for the full amount.

Nope. Please cite the public laws that make this applicable. It's his property, and one is reimbursed for a property loss. It does not preclude him from attempting to reclaim his property via law enforcement. These questions would be better answered by a police authority dealing with property recovery, and a postal inspector.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 30, 2017 11:00 am

Quote from: schlitzbeer on May 30, 2017, 10:28AM
Nope. Please cite the public laws that make this applicable. It's his property, and one is reimbursed for a property loss. It does not preclude him from attempting to reclaim his property via law enforcement. These questions would be better answered by a police authority dealing with property recovery, and a postal inspector.

Freight, at least in the US, is owned by the person shipping it until receipt has been made by person being shipped to. The USPS does not own it and they cannot legally declare an arbitrary ownership of a package on a whim. For that matter, the reason the silk road used the USPS is that they can't even legally open them (https://www.quora.com/How-did-Silk-Road-deliver-the-narcotics-it-sold). In the event that an item is lost, liability is on the company supplying the freight service and they must reimburse the declared amount. If an item is not reimbursed for then the owner is still the individual who shipped the item. And, as it relates to this case, that means they sold a product prior to owning it.

That in and of itself is not illegal... The interesting thing is this changes if you purchase an item, at least from an accounting perspective. When you purchase an item and pay for the shipping, the moment that the freight company takes control over the package, you own the package, not the seller. This more pertains to accounting than law, but you can fidn this information in most introductory accounting textbooks. (e.g. if I purchased a trombone and sold it before I received the item that is okay)

But --- as far as we are aware publicly --- they did not have that authority because Zac was still the owner of the merchandise. (Greg Black would have been the owner if he had paid for shipping and there was intent to sell the merchandise to him, but in this case since it was additional labor being added, then Zac would be the legal owner of the property from the moment it left his doorstep until the moment it arrived back barring the USPS losing it and following the proper legal channels such as waiting the period of 9 months before selling it).

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Tue May 30, 2017 11:40 am

Quote from: Matt K on May 30, 2017, 11:00AMFreight, at least in the US, is owned by the person shipping it until receipt has been made by person being shipped to. The USPS does not own it and they cannot legally declare an arbitrary ownership of a package on a whim. For that matter, the reason the silk road used the USPS is that they can't even legally open them (https://www.quora.com/How-did-Silk-Road-deliver-the-narcotics-it-sold). In the event that an item is lost, liability is on the company supplying the freight service and they must reimburse the declared amount. If an item is not reimbursed for then the owner is still the individual who shipped the item. And, as it relates to this case, that means they sold a product prior to owning it.

That in and of itself is not illegal... The interesting thing is this changes if you purchase an item, at least from an accounting perspective. When you purchase an item and pay for the shipping, the moment that the freight company takes control over the package, you own the package, not the seller. This more pertains to accounting than law, but you can fidn this information in most introductory accounting textbooks. (e.g. if I purchased a trombone and sold it before I received the item that is okay)

But --- as far as we are aware publicly --- they did not have that authority because Zac was still the owner of the merchandise. (Greg Black would have been the owner if he had paid for shipping and there was intent to sell the merchandise to him, but in this case since it was additional labor being added, then Zac would be the legal owner of the property from the moment it left his doorstep until the moment it arrived back barring the USPS losing it and following the proper legal channels such as waiting the period of 9 months before selling it).

I'm not taking the time to quote and reference a 600 page introductory accounting book. I think we had the same one. The bigger point is that usps sold off the item before paying Zach. And as it's personalized, it's easily identified. There's only one guy making that item. As the item is now found , usps needs to step in and recover and return. To argue that Zach doesn't own it, because he's been paid , is a joke. He hasn't been paid .

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 30, 2017 12:05 pm

In that case I must have understood your previous post, my mistake. Your assessment is in line with what sonicsilver and myself are saying -- that given our current knowledge Zac is the legal owner of the piece because legally speaking, he never lost possession of the mouthpiece.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue May 30, 2017 12:23 pm

Thing is, we had an item lost in the Mails with distinct identification (specifically, Zac's name on it). I think the Post Office was a little forward in passing this along with insufficient effort to restore it. Zac has offered to BUY the thing from the guy who took it in an auction -- it's that important to him. I think the guy who won it in the auction should sell it to Zac for what he paid for it, not what he thinks he can auction it for.

There is lots of shady dealings here. Just not theft.

ttf_gregs70 · Post by **ttf_gregs70** » Tue May 30, 2017 12:43 pm

https://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/609.htm#1097213 for details of the USPS insurance.

I work for an insurance company. If your car is stolen and you get paid for it, that is the end of it. Ownership transfers to the insurance company. If it is recovered, they can auction it off and keep whatever they get. You can't demand it back. All you can do is attend the auction and hope. Yes, the USDPA sold it off quick and have not yet paid off on the insurance, but large governmental organizations of all kinds are ready to take your money quick when it is owned them but slow to pay when they owe you.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Tue May 30, 2017 1:23 pm

Quote from: Matt K on May 30, 2017, 12:05PMIn that case I must have understood your previous post, my mistake. Your assessment is in line with what sonicsilver and myself are saying -- that given our current knowledge Zac is the legal owner of the piece because legally speaking, he never lost possession of the mouthpiece.

Nope, the other guy is making a lot of assumptions. An insurer reimburses for losses incurred during shipping, not the ownership rights of the item. If Zach recovers the item, usps should pay him his costs of recovery. Most people taking they payout for the loss and buy a replacement. I think this mouthpiece is a little more important to Zach. It's very interesting how what we know, , or it's sounding , overrides the actual processes of recovery. The item was lost, turn in a police report of a lost/stolen item. Forward a copy to eBay and postal inspector for investigation. The item has been found on eBay. File claim on eBay and USPS for recovery. Mail fraud is a federal level felony. Never known of a case of a car being stolen through the USPS . It's a really small box.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/20/stolen-1957-chevy-returned/5650155/

"I work for an insurance company". Yeah? I work in asset recovery. Two different approaches.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 30, 2017 3:24 pm

I see what you're saying, I suppose I'm skipping to the point that basically everyone does seem to agree with:

Quote As the item is now found , usps needs to step in and recover and return. To argue that Zach doesn't own it, because he's been paid , is a joke. He hasn't been paid .

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Tue May 30, 2017 3:32 pm

Quote from: schlitzbeer on May 30, 2017, 01:23PMIf Zach recovers the item, usps should pay him his costs of recovery.

"Should," with relation to USPS? Sorry--that isn't going to happen. They shouldn't lose packages. They shouldn't drop boxes. They shouldn't take several months to pay out on an insurance claim. Problem is, they do.

In this case, it appears that they didn't apply due diligence to the recovery of Zach's mouthpiece. That's not surprising. When they lost three tuba dent balls from a package shipped to me, I was able to tell them what was engraved on them, how much they weighed, and that these were undoubtedly the ONLY tuba dent balls in the USPS lost and found at that moment. That didn't help. I ended up having the shipper replace them at his cost. USPS doesn't take the time to search for lost items. Even if they did, having a name engraved on a mouthpiece isn't enough. I could claim that my name is Vincent Bach Mt. Vernon N.Y. 1.5G or Almont and see what turned up, but I'm pretty sure they're not going to look at every mouthpiece in their inventory to try to find mine. And yes, that's quite terrible.

That said, trashing on the seller, who paid for that mouthpiece and was unaware that it was identifiable and could be returned to its rightful owner, is not the right course of action. At this point, from his perspective, the item is bought and paid for, along with the twenty-five Manny's razors, fifteen-hundred AOL CD Roms and the Abdominizer that were in the box with it, and which he'll get no money for. He's going to try to get maximum profit out of the items he paid for. It's not what I would do, but I can't really blame him.

It's also not a good idea to try to get the USPS to do the "right thing."

Neither of the above courses of action will get that mouthpiece back into Zach's hands. Once it was sold at auction, (and no it shouldn't have been, but it was,) it became for all intents and purposes, the legal property of the person who purchased it.

Want to see what happens when you fight the Post Office on things like this? See:

https://www.inc.com/chuck-blakeman/the-post-office-can-and-will-sell-your-stuff-even-before-the-delivery-date.html

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Tue May 30, 2017 3:55 pm

Quote from: Euphanasia on May 30, 2017, 03:32PM
Want to see what happens when you fight the Post Office on things like this? See:

https://www.inc.com/chuck-blakeman/the-post-office-can-and-will-sell-your-stuff-even-before-the-delivery-date.html

Euph,

Chuck Blakeman's account is fascinating, and almost surely explains how and why the mouthpiece came to be in the hands of the (apparently innocent and law-abiding) Atlanta-area eBay reseller. Clearly the USPS does NOT follow their own procedure about hanging on to "dead parcels" for at least 30 days (Priority Mail) or 60 days (Insured and Registered parcels) before shipping them off to the Atlanta Mail Recovery Center:
http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2012/pb22352/html/updt_009.htm

So what should Zach do in this case - sue the Postal Service for not complying with their own rules? Fat chance!

Lesson learned - next time I ship via USPS I'll double-tape my package and insure for full value!

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Tue May 30, 2017 5:04 pm

Quote from: Posaunus on May 30, 2017, 03:55PMEuph,

Chuck Blakeman's account is fascinating, and almost surely explains how and why the mouthpiece came to be in the hands of the (apparently innocent and law-abiding) Atlanta-area eBay reseller. Clearly the USPS does NOT follow their own procedure about hanging on to "dead parcels" for at least 30 days (Priority Mail) or 60 days (Insured and Registered parcels) before shipping them off to the Atlanta Mail Recovery Center:
http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2012/pb22352/html/updt_009.htm

So what should Zach do in this case - sue the Postal Service for not complying with their own rules? Fat chance!

Lesson learned - next time I ship via USPS I'll double-tape my package and insure for full value!

It's 100% anecdotal. Chuck, made a claim and dialed phone numbers. Did he disclose that he filed a police report? Any action other than a barrage of phone calls, which are unverifiable? He ran out the clock. Doesn't mention at all if he used the legal system? Sure, it's slow, but that's what wè have.

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/MailFraud/fraudschemes/mailtheft/ReportMailTheft.aspx

Next, try doing a simple search on mail theft, fraud, etc. All kinds of cases, and more so when surveying federal court filings.

https://about.usps.com/doing-business/auctions/welcome.htm

Quote from: sonicsilver on May 30, 2017, 08:50AMThe eBay seller looks like someone who trades in stuff bought at USPS sell-offs, so it's fair to assume he acquired it legally, in the absence of any indication to the contrary. It would not be Zach's mouthpiece any more.

Quote from: gregs70 on May 30, 2017, 12:43PM https://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/609.htm#1097213 for details of the USPS insurance.

I work for an insurance company. If your car is stolen and you get paid for it, that is the end of it. Ownership transfers to the insurance company. If it is recovered, they can auction it off and keep whatever they get. You can't demand it back. All you can do is attend the auction and hope. Yes, the USDPA sold it off quick and have not yet paid off on the insurance, but large governmental organizations of all kinds are ready to take your money quick when it is owned them but slow to pay when they owe you.

https://about.usps.com/doing-business/auctions/welcome.htm

"All live auctions at our Atlanta Mail Recovery Center have been canceled. All auctions of undeliverable, unclaimed, damaged, and claim-paid merchandise are now conducted online. ".

What we have here is a group of bandwagon riders.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Tue May 30, 2017 10:21 pm

Quote from: schlitzbeer on May 30, 2017, 05:04PMIt's 100% anecdotal. Chuck, made a claim and dialed phone numbers. Did he disclose that he filed a police report? Any action other than a barrage of phone calls, which are unverifiable? He ran out the clock. Doesn't mention at all if he used the legal system? Sure, it's slow, but that's what wè have.
Not true. We (meaning Zach) also has the ability to work outside of the legal system and purchase his mouthpiece back directly, provided that the seller is still willing to accommodate him. I've tried fighting the USPS just like Chuck did, and failed. So have many others here. Perhaps you have anecdotal evidence that shows that one can win a lawsuit, forcing the USPS to retrieve prematurely-auctioned items from a purchaser. As I see it, my anecdote outweighs your lack of an anecdote.

Quote from: schlitzbeer on May 30, 2017, 05:04PM https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/MailFraud/fraudschemes/mailtheft/ReportMailTheft.aspx

Next, try doing a simple search on mail theft, fraud, etc. All kinds of cases, and more so when surveying federal court filings.

https://about.usps.com/doing-business/auctions/welcome.htm

https://about.usps.com/doing-business/auctions/welcome.htm

"All live auctions at our Atlanta Mail Recovery Center have been canceled. All auctions of undeliverable, unclaimed, damaged, and claim-paid merchandise are now conducted online. ".
Yep. The auctions are conducted online. But it ain't Ebay. USPS won't ship your items to your house. Somehow, you have to get to Atlanta to pick up your items. What's your point? Are you implying that the seller couldn't have purchased the auction from the Atlanta Mail Recovery Center? That's just not true.

Did you click on the link in that link you pointed us toward? If so, you'd find this:
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.AdvSearchResultsNew&agency=4703&rowCount=10&StartRow=11

That's 22 pages of items located in Atlanta that USPS won't ship.

Quote from: schlitzbeer on May 30, 2017, 05:04PMWhat we have here is a group of bandwagon riders.

And what we have here starts with the same three letters as "trombonist," but ends with a couple of "L"s.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Wed May 31, 2017 12:48 am

Quote from: Euphanasia on May 30, 2017, 10:21PM I've tried fighting the USPS just like Chuck did, and failed. So have many others here. bandwagon Perhaps you have anecdotal evidence that shows that one can win a lawsuit, forcing the USPS to retrieve prematurely-auctioned items from a purchaser. As I see it, my anecdote outweighs your lack of an anecdote.

And what we have here starts with the same three letters as "trombonist," but ends with a couple of "L"s. <---That's your best effort?

As for attending an auction, that's the language used. That's an assumption that it went through an auction. Chuck also used his column to talk about books. The mouthpiece is personalized and is unique, compared to several copies of a book. Two different things. So, did you file police reports and speak with a postal inspector? I actually enjoy a good academic discussion with a heavy dose of sarcasm. To call another X, is a moment of looking in the mirror.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Wed May 31, 2017 7:10 am

This isn't helping Zach get his mouthpiece back.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:35 am

Quote from: Matt K on May 27, 2017, 07:41PMYes this is definitely on the post office. You probably could take the USPS to small claims court. You may even be able to claim damages. That would be a civil suit and separate from the criminal case. The threshold for victory In a civil suit is much lower (reasonable doubt).

The USPS might not be criminally negligent but may lose a civil suit. It would depend on. What the investigation turns up. Not sure if the police would do it over an object only worth $200 even though the personal value is much higher after all.

Even if this person has proof of purchase it still may be possible for it to be seized. Ie. Pawnshops can't buy hot goods and claim they didn't know.

It depends on how it ended up in this person's hand. Nobody as far as I know is claiming that they stole it. But that doesn't mean that the USPS handled the situation legally.

Related: https://www.quora.com/How-do-pawnbrokers-verify-that-the-item-pawned-is-not-stolen

I like Matt's solution. Since the Postal Service lost and then sold the item at auction they are the party who is at fault here. I would buy the piece back and then take the postal service to small claims court for whatever it cost you to retrieve your property. You'll have plenty of proof to win a civil suite.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:53 am

Don't know how I didn't notice this earlier, but I should clarify the level of proof required for civil vs. criminal:

Criminal cases require proof "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Civil cases require a "preponderance of evidence" which Cornell Law defines as:

QuoteA requirement that more then 50% of the evidence points to something. This is the burden of proof in a civil trial. For example: At the end of civil case A v. B, 51% of the evidence favors A. Thus, A has a preponderance of the evidence, A has met their burden of proof, and A will win the case.
It is still a good option and seems that it would be done in addition to reporting it to the report mail theft link provided earlier and filing a police report. If my understanding of small claims court is correct, these things would be valid evidence.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:17 am

I'm pretty sure the USPS, as part of the Federal Government, is immune from civil suits and damages can only be addressed through a tort process. I've read opinions from multiple people claiming to be lawyers who hold this opinion.

There's a description of tort proceedings against the USPS here: http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2005/html/pb22170/a-c4_002.html. Most of it describes actions taken in cases of personal injury, for example, if you're hit by a mail truck or injured by falling debris inside of a post office.

Then there's this:

254.3 Unauthorized Payments

Tort payments should not be made by tort claims coordinators on any of the following types of claims:

a. Any claim arising out of the loss, miscarriage, or negligent transmission of letters or postal matter...

Sovereign immunity. It's an ugly thing, but there it is. Even in cases of injury, you would have to prove intent to defraud rather than simple error. There's a case where a package containing marijuana was accidentally delivered to a man's house, and he ended up in jail for three months. He filed a tort claim and lost--apparently because the mis-delivery was an "error" rather than a planned attempt to imprison him. It stinks, but that's how the rules work for USPS. As many have already stated, the best recourse is to insure packages for their replacement value.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:35 am

I always forget that the USPS isn't a public-private thing like Amtrack and that they're actually part of the federal govt. That is correct then, they do have immunity from that sort of thing. Insure full value or go UPS/FedEx! I've been using UPS for most of my shipments recently. They do automatic $100 and most of my packages have been around that price so its only been a few cents cheaper than the USPS alternative for the stuff I've used it for. FWIW.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:47 am

I did a quick google search and it looks like you can't sue the Federal government in small claims court as others have said, since State and local governments have no authority over federal agencies. I guess this is a good reason to not use the USPS in the future and stick with FEDEX or UPS, if I'm shipping anything of value I always ensure it for what it's worth and require a signature. Hindsight is 20/20 and I hope that somehow you can retrieve your property at a reasonable cost to you.

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:59 pm

Something definitely stinks about this situation. Dead letter mail is supposed to be held for around 90 days. Other sources say 60 to 90, and the idea is that they are waiting to see if anyone claims the items. Of course there is little to no information about how one claims items that are USPS dead letter.

Anyway, the problem is that the main reason for mail becoming "unclaimed" is that the label is removed or destroyed somehow, making it impossible to tell where it is supposed to be going. I do not know if they perform any type of investigation on the packages. With United Parcel Service, items with no label end up in "overgoods" where they will supposedly open the package to try to figure out where it is supposed to be going.

This is one reason why I often put an address label INSIDE the box, hoping that should something get lost, it may still show up.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:50 am

I got the mouthpiece back today. No damage and it is i. The original bag. I have been trying to contact the seller to pay him but he isn't answering.
All in all a crappy situation that turned out great. Now I am going to insure it and send it to Greg again!

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:52 am

Quote from: HouBassTrombone on Jun 02, 2017, 09:50AMI got the mouthpiece back today. No damage and it is i. The original bag. I have been trying to contact the seller to pay him but he isn't answering.
All in all a crappy situation that turned out great. Now I am going to insure it and send it to Greg again!

Put the address inside the box, too and tape the crap out of the whole thing

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:10 am

Quote from: Euphanasia on May 31, 2017, 07:10AMThis isn't helping Zach get his mouthpiece back.

Apparently, it hasn't hurt either! lol

Glad it was returned!

...Geezer