Symphony work: talk me off the ledge

[tbdana]

I am starting to get grumpy about symphony work, and I need an intervention from those of you who cherish it.

I've always considered myself more of a "jack of all trades" generalist capable of many genres, rather than strictly a legit player. I've played in minor pro symphonies, a recording symphony, and some pops orchestras like the Hollywood Bowl Orchestra, but classical work has never been my sole focus. So that might be a source of my current problem, which is this: My tolerance for being a professional rest counter is wearing thin. I'm weary of having to tacet three movements, or sit out half the concert, or not even be needed for a concert. And the trombone parts are often unsatisfying. In essence, I guess I'm starting to feel bored. Last night I played the first rehearsal for the next concert, and it was a real snooze-fest. I sat there for almost 3 hours and never even got warmed up. I left the rehearsal feeling bored and cranky, and wondering why they even hired trombones.

About the only thing I continue to like about the symphony anymore is that it's a steady gig with a defined season. That, and I love playing with my section, as we play really well together and they are wonderful people. So that's what I try to focus on and appreciate.

Have you ever gone through periods where you find the work unsatisfying? Or do you always love it and I'm just the odd one? Do you love the literature so much that you don't care that you often have little or nothing to play? What keeps you passionate about playing trombone in a symphony orchestra? I swear, the next time I have to count 182 bars rest only to have the conductor stop the orchestra the moment I pick up my horn to play, I'm gonna lose it. LOL.

[WilliamLang]

Honestly, I come from the classical tradition and work with those sound ideals in mind, and I've taken a few auditions here and there to stay connected, but I never hit the circuit hard or pursued that life in an all-in way specifically because of those very reasons.

Basically, if you take the job for the paycheck, you just gotta put those feelings aside, or let someone that really loves it take the job. It's the main reason that I make my living as a soloist and chamber musician - I like working on my horn and my art, and sitting around not contributing the majority of the time isn't interesting to me, even though the music is sometimes beautiful and the playing around me is sometimes great.

[Burgerbob]

Quality over quantity in that setting. But sometimes neither!

[harrisonreed]

Do really, truly you want an honest response to this?

[tbdana]

Do really, truly you want an honest response to this?

Sounds like you want to be mean to me again. So perhaps not. Thanks for asking.

[harrisonreed]

When have I been mean to you?

I'll keep it polite. If the orchestra job pays, there are probably a lot of young trombonists who would really like the job and wouldn't be bored. Maybe give up your seat to them.

[Mertelstein]

I went through something similar on Sunday evening. I barely got warmed up in the first half of the rehearsal before we were packed off so the bulk of the rehearsal could be given over to the strings. Deeply unsatisfactory, but what made up for it was the tuba player and I setting up for an impromptu sectional and duets session in the courtyard outside the rehearsal venue. It was 0 degrees and probably quite rough to hear but it was good fun that I wouldn’t have had if I a) hadn’t been playing with the orchestra and b) had been required for the whole rehearsal…

…but appreciate that I’m doing this for fun these days rather than for my job and it’s a very different question if this is your main income. In which case I fall back on Aidan’s comment on quality over quantity. I have much less to play in an orchestra but I probably put more thought and effort into it than 90% of the bar or jazz band gigs I do (maybe that says more about me though…bad habits…).

One last thing is the difference a good conductor makes. One who works with the sections, will joke a little with you in those situations where he stops you right after the 15 mins of rest counting when you’re about to play, and makes up for it by chucking the big passages at you after! We’re lucky with the conductor in the orchestra I’m talking about - he works with the brass to maximise our time there and allow us time to do sectionals / go to the pub.

[Doug Elliott]

Exactly why I did not go into (or stay in) the classical scene. Jazz/big band/commercial work is so much more interesting and satisfying. With the exception of wedding bands, which I also stopped doing.

[JohnL]

Would you miss it (musically or financially) if you stopped doing it?

[SamBTbrn]

I think all brass musicians with orchestra work feel like that ever now and then. When I start to feel that way sitting in those long rehearsals, I pick an instrument that plays alot but that I would normally not pay much attention to while playing and try to listen intensely to their part.
I'm listening to hear how the composer has written for that instrument in the work and how it sits against other parts. Also to how the player aproaches it musically and what are they doing physically to play it. If they are repeating sections alot, then that just gives you more chances to hear the same part again and again.

Then being a trombonist, I imagine how I would play it better than them . But in all seriousness, it helps me get back inside the music and out of the head space of "oh great another hour without playing". I also find that I learn at least one new musical or technical idea, and thats not a bad trade off for sitting and getting paid not to play.

Best
Sam

[EriKon]

I like to do orchestral work like that every now and then, but I could never do that on regular basis. I try to see it more like a challenge. You're sitting around for an hour and then while everything feels not warmed up and cold you try to play the 5 bars Chorale in Brahms 1 as beautiful as you can with the section. Totally different skillset as playing a bigband gig, but nice-to-have every now and then in my opinion.

[GabrielRice]

I love orchestra playing. If I didn't, I could make a lot more money doing something else entirely.

As for the role of the trombone, in most of the literature we're a sparingly used spice, and when it's our turn to shine it's an incredibly special moment. Every note we play in a Brahms symphony is meaningful, and taking that kind of care is deeply satisfying to me.

I don't expect everybody to find the same satisfaction I do in that role, and that's completely okay.

[AtomicClock]

I'm only guessing here... but I would not be surprised if the gigging freelancer gets a larger share of the unsatisfying pieces than the people they sub for.

[GGJazz]

Hi all .

I played as a pro in Symphony Orchestra from when I was 19 until I was almost 27.
I switched to a Jazz career not because of "satisfaction" or "fun" , but because Jazz is the Music that I loved from the beginning .

Anyway , if you are playing in a good / high level Symphony Orchestra , there are a lot of Music that make you regret counting rest....

Berlioz , Mahler , R . Strauss , Stravinsky , Bartok , Shostakovic , etc etc .

As bass trombonist , I played Stauss' Hen Heldenleben , and I can assure that is pretty challenging .
Shostakovic "Leningrad " are bit heavy too.
Petrouchka , Mahler 5th , An Alpine Symphony , Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique .
If I recall correctly , also 4th , 5th , 6th Tchaikovsky Symphonies are full of challenging stuff .

I played also The Bartok" Wunderbaren Mandarin" : you have to start , as bass trombonist , with a really rhytmic solo , 25 bars , alone over the woodwinds , with strings playing fast lines of notes . I still have a copy of the sheet . It is 10 pages , not so much rest in between , changing meters so often (7/4 , 3/2 , 5/4 , 7/8 , etc ) , some excerpts as page 8 (No 78) , where you have 20 bars of quarter notes with dynamics between F to FFF .

Most of the Music of the 1900 is very challenging for trombone players .
Anyway , in my opinion , performing Brahms , Beethoven , Bruckner , Dvorak , etc , is very very difficult , if you have to do it in a serious way .. What a wonderful Music !!

The only thing I could not stand , about playing in a Symphony Orchestra , was when we had to perform Contemporary Music ( Sciarrino , Donatoni , etc) .....

The rest are anyway part of the job . If one get bored , it is better to leave this , in my opinion .

Regards
Giancarlo

[SteveM]

It seems as though tbdana's posts receive an inordinate amount of condescending responses. Especially given what seem to be her obvious stature and accomplishments as a trombonist.

[Retrobone]

Hi.

I've been playing in orchestras since I was 13 and professionally since 18... I'm well into my 60's and still going at it! I love orchestral music and love listening to it. I love the feel of playing a great masterwork with an inspiring conductor to a full house of attentive and supportive listeners. Irrespective of how few or many notes I have. Does this happen every week for me? No way (not even close!)! Is the orchestra responsible for my happiness and job satisfaction? Also not! But I can be VERY happy in an orchestra. I just don't rely on it for my strokes!

[bitbckt]

Let the gig go to someone who doesn’t feel the “ledge” about it, for everyone’s benefit.

[mgladdish]

I only did symphony stuff through school, but this is exactly why I didn't persue it any further. My breaking point was hours upon hours of Elgar Enigma Variations were we stopped just as the trombones were due to come in. I swear I only got to play about 6 notes in a half-day rehearsal, and it's not even as though those six notes are worth waiting for. That shit gets old quickly.

[tbdana]

Let the gig go to someone who doesn’t feel the “ledge” about it, for everyone’s benefit.

That's fair, and of course that was one of my first thoughts when I found myself on the ledge. I thought, "Well, maybe I can just finish out the season and then if I still feel this way I can think about perhaps letting them hold auditions for my chair." It's always tough to decide to give up the money, though. Then again, if money is the goal, there are lots of better ways to make money than playing the trombone. And yet, giving up a gig is hard, no matter what. Someone on this forum, I forget who, observed that, "in San Francisco there are more people making a living pitching for the Giants than playing the trombone." That observation really struck me and stuck with me, and has been going around in my head as I consider my future with the symphony.

I don't want this thread to give the impression that I'm coming from some life or death level angst. I'm fortunate that I don't need this work or any particular work. In the past when I was deep in a music career, this wouldn't even be a question. But now I do it because I love it. And when I'm thinking through a problem or situation I like to "think aloud" and seek the wisdom and not-wisdom of others who may be similarly situated. So I posed the question here, among people whose opinions I respect, to kind of think my way through this. Heck, I don't even know if I'll feel the same way tomorrow. But today it's worth asking the question.

[hyperbolica]

A long time ago I was playing in a military band playing a lot of stage band type stuff, some of which was depressingly unfulfilling. It was starting to make me resent my trombone every time I pulled it out. So I started looking around and taking symphony auditions. At one of the auditions, the best player I knew who was from Curtis Institute didn't even make the 1st cut. I didn't see a way forward with it all, going either track. At one point I made the decision that becoming bitter toward the music was the wrong thing to do. I didn't want to wind up hating music if on one hand I was only playing stuff I loathed and on the other hand couldn't even get invited to the party. So I became an engineer. Best decision of my life. I still play but I only play in situations where I choose to play. I'm not depending on it for my livelihood. I don't think you can be too idealistic about things when its your everyday job. On the other hand, it's easy to be emotionally connected to a hobby. What ever you decide, don't let it make you bitter.

[bitbckt]

As a trombonist, until recently based in San Francisco, I'm intimately familiar with that expression.

Ultimately, the decision is of course yours to make, but especially in light of your not needing that work, I wouldn't be able to justify sitting in that seat to myself. It seems like a great opportunity to lift somebody at the beginning of their career up, with very little (no?) downside to you.

[GabrielRice]

I highly doubt that Giants saying is even close to true. I know there are more people making a living playing and teaching trombone in Boston than there are pitching for the Red Sox, and SF is a bigger city.

[bitbckt]

Haha, I don’t think it’s meant to be taken literally, Gabe. I do love the idea that somebody would do the census to “prove” it, though.

[GabrielRice]

I realize it's tongue in cheek...but I am constantly trying to dispel the "accepted wisdom" that only the tiny percentage of musicians with full-time orchestra or teaching jobs make a living in music.

It's just not true, and I find it disrespectful to the thousands and thousands of people like me who put together a decent living from freelancing and teaching in multiple schools.

[sf105]

I think it was Dennis Wick who wrote that orchestral trombone playing is like piloting a jumbo jet. Hours of boredom with minutes of terror when you get to land the plane.

It sounds like it depends a lot on how good the conductor is at rehearsing. In one of my orchestras, I got so bored waiting for the conductor to finish arguing with the cellos, that I started arranging sectionals (we started in the school kitchen). That made everything much better, including our section.

On a good day, even if I'm not playing, it's still a bit of a privilege to sit and listen to a bunch of players work on wonderful music. Of course, that assumes that it's not the same five popular pieces. And I'm not making a living at it.

S

[bitbckt]

I find it disrespectful to the thousands and thousands of people like me who put together a decent living from freelancing and teaching in multiple schools.

I'm not going to indulge this tangent any further than this, however:

I find that aphorism increasingly apt in describing the Bay Area's music education/performance scene, which is not nearly as strong as the market size might indicate, and I feel is declining despite the institutional support that exists there. This is not the place to go into that further. Contrary to your interpretation, I consequently feel the quip implies that those who are making careers happen there deserve more respect, not less.

Summarizing: the salient part to me is the "SF" bit, not the "trombonists vs. pitchers" bit, which you are indeed fully entitled to feeling disrespected by.

[MStarke]

This is very personal, but from today's perspective this is one of the (many) reasons why I decided against a career as professional musician.

I came to the conclusion that I did not want to be at least partially depending on playing that kind of orchestra gigs. And admittedly I for sure did not have the capability and perspective to plan on one of the top orchestral jobs (in Germany/central Europe).

I absolutely see that other people may not have the same issue. But some of the last gigs and orchestra projects I did have very much confirmed this.
E.g. a frustrating experience of playing Mendelssohn's Lobgesang on alto. This could be an okay and in a good way challenging piece. But if the conductor basically gives you no room to play and breath, at least for me this was no fun at all.
If you don't want brass, then play something without. If you want brass, but don't want to hear it, then pay them appropriately for their suffering
On the other hand I played Rhenish with a (much better) orchestra 2 weeks ago. Of course we have been asked to play a bit softer, but the conductor had an overall appreciative attitude towards brass and explicitly thanked us (and everyone else in the orchestra) multiple times.

So for me this is not just about sitting around and counting empty bars, but a lot also about attitude, bi-directional understanding.

[PhilTrombone]

There is no such thing as a job that is 100% satisfying. All jobs come with some negative aspects.

Counting rests in an orch is simply unavoidable. Perhaps applying some perspective would help. Take a step back and think about the last year or two. Was it all disappointing?

There is mention here of doing jazz / big band stuff. There are more notes and less rests to count, but there is plenty of unrewarding, dull big band music too.

Surely there must some times when you are enjoying the gig, for example the cameraderie of your section mates. I have friends in major symphonies who may not always enjoy the work, whether it's counting rest, or disliking the work being played, or not liking the conductor. Some might be staying for the paycheck, but most relish the times when it's amazing. When I was playing FT I had that jolt perhaps once every 6 months.

What is your "ledge"? Freaking out? Taking it out on your peers? Find a different gig? Leaving the field?

It is up to you to decide what to do. Being a nonstop downer to the folks around you neither helps the orchestra or you. You also won't get much other work by exhibiting a negative attitude.

Either:
Learn to deal with it. (and be satisfied the way it is)
Hate it and stay.
Find something else to do.

[timothy42b]

There is no such thing as a job that is 100% satisfying. All jobs come with some negative aspects.

That's my take too. Of course as a retiree my perspective is different.

I think jobs that are satisfying - as mine was - have elements that bring us joy, and other parts that we do out of professionalism. In my career the parts that brought joy became a smaller percentage over the years as promotions moved me away from the technical and into the management side. The trick is to still enjoy those parts while performing the rest without burning out.

Earlier in my working life I had jobs with zero joy, only misery; thsoe paid the rent. Some people don't have the choices I did - maybe most people, I'm not sure.

[VJOFan]

A regular orchestra gig, as far as “day jobs” go, is a pretty sweet deal. It is easy to be 100% prepared for the work, the work isn’t very taxing and there are few professional orchestras that don’t have a good overall feel for time and pitch so the playing is pretty pain free. The 2 hour rehearsal call leaves a lot of free time for any other projects, teaching, practicing and just goofing off.

When trying to become a pro I gravitated toward getting an orchestra seat because I saw the kinds of things even fairly good players had to do as free lancers. That kind of scrambling did not appeal.

When I got a chair, it was fantastic to have that as my base and then be able to do fun things on the side and spend time preparing recitals and audition repertoire.

However, everyone hits the retirement “ledge” at some point. I’m almost there in my second career as a high school teacher. I still find it easy to go in every day and am still reading books on different teaching methods, but I also know I wouldn’t miss it at all if I woke up tomorrow and didn’t have to go in again.

If you don’t need the job, and don’t really enjoy the job…? It’s not the job.

[Finetales]

I had a friend in undergrad who was a truly exceptional player, and won the principal trombone spot in a good, full-time salaried orchestra while still completing his degree. He went on to play with this orchestra for awhile, and their programming sounded like a brass player's dream! Plenty of brass-heavy works with lots of notes to play every concert - no dull moments of counting rests for hours on end. And the brass were asked to bring the heat! Sounds like any orchestral brass musician's dream, right?

Well, this heavy programming eventually destroyed my friend's playing and he had to quit the orchestra, come back to school, take a lot of time off the horn, and eventually try to slowly rebuild his playing from scratch. In the mean time he shifted his focus to conducting, and I'm not sure if he ever returned to playing. This wasn't just him, either...from what I was told, it was a trend in that orchestra for brass players to eventually burn their chops out and have to leave. And he was a horse of a player with a healthy approach in all registers and volumes, not someone who was ill-prepared for that job.

The point is, be careful what you wish for. While it's certainly not fun to get very boring parts in the orchestra, it's better than the opposite extreme.

Personally, I view those sorts of sparse trombone parts (of which there are many) as getting paid to listen to great music. I will happily sit for 40 minutes taceting in a Puccini opera enjoying those gorgeous melodies, and collect a check afterwards. I'm getting paid the same as the string players while doing a tiny fraction of the work...how can that be a bad day? And even if the piece isn't very good, I never get too upset because my worst days as a musician are still far better than the best days I had working retail.

[Kbiggs]

The point is, be careful what you wish for. While it's certainly not fun to get very boring parts in the orchestra, it's better than the opposite extreme.

Personally, I view those sorts of sparse trombone parts (of which there are many) as getting paid to listen to great music. I will happily sit for 40 minutes taceting in a Puccini opera enjoying those gorgeous melodies, and collect a check afterwards. I'm getting paid the same as the string players while doing a tiny fraction of the work...how can that be a bad day? And even if the piece isn't very good, I never get too upset because my worst days as a musician are still far better than the best days I had working retail.

This.

It can be unsatisfying to sit in rehearsal, count rests, have the horn warmed-up and to the lips, big breath in and… poof! The conductor stops just as you’re about to enter. When that happens, it’s so tempting to think, “Why am I doing this?” I know, and I’ve done it too often.

I’m starting to adopt a different attitude about symphonic playing: I get to do this, even when it’s a low or non-paying community group. I chose to play with this group at this time, and now I’m allowing myself to enjoy what’s going on around me, listen to some beautiful music (and sometimes not so beautiful), and challenge myself to play as best I can in the moment I play. I chose to play in the group, and while I could be doing 29 other things right now that are urgent and important, they have to wait. I’m here, right now.

It’s not a toxic positivity thing. For me, it’s a coping mechanism, a way to nudge my brain towards a more helpful attitude. I have a tendency towards negative and judgmental thinking, so I’m challenging myself to adopt a more positive and helpful attitude. Not for everyone else, although I do think my section mates and the orchestra benefit. It’s about my personal satisfaction with life.

I like Gabe’s spice analogy. It’s similar to Mendelssohn’s quip: “The trombone is too sacred for frequent use.” Martin Luther had it right: We are the voice of God.

And continue to practice your tacet horn. It’s the easiest instrument to play well.

[LeTromboniste]

I guess it might be different whether you love the music or not. When you love hearing that repertoire and getting to understand it better, it's easier to enjoy sitting around in the back. In my case since I'm also a conductor, when I play orchestral music, a lot of the time I'll be listening, trying to get a better understanding of the music, and thinking of how I would interpret the piece if I someday conduct it. I'll also watch the conductor and their rehearsing and see what they do well and why, and what they do wrong and why, and try to learn from that. I think that can be useful for anyone, whether you conduct or not, because we all need to use leadership skills sometimes, and understanding what conductors do and why also makes us better players and more able to respond to them. Then when we do play I'll go out of my way to not just go through the motions and settle for good, but really constantly challenge myself, can this next chord be more together than the last, was the balance of the section good, was it good in relationship with the music and our role at that moment, was the shaping the same in the section and the right one, did I exactly match the principal's articulation and release etc etc.

When I do get bored or don't want to spend all this mental energy for long tacet movements, I'll bring a book and be glad that I'm getting paid a decent amount of money to just sit, read and hear good music.

That being said, while I do enjoy when I play orchestral music (and when I'm doing it I somewhat miss the days I did more of it), but I can't deny that I feel A LOT more artistically and mentally stimulated by the playing I mostly do now than I did when I was focused on orchestral music.

[Bach5G]

Well it is what it is. You know the gig. If you decide to take a break, try not to burn any bridges. You might use it if you feel better when you get home.