Am I a bass trombone fraud?

[Mertelstein]

Greetings all. Bit of a “fun” question for the bass trombonists out there…

I moved to mainly playing bass trombone in my early teens. Due to a quirk of fate I have only ever played dependent trigger basses, and I have never played a “thumb and forefinger” arrangement - my basses have been a Duo Gravis and a Conn 73H with stacked or side-by-side triggers.

Can those people who are considerably more experienced than me tell me what I’m missing with independent triggers? Do you use the G flat much? Have I missed out on a world of experiences? And should I disown my membership of the bass trombone society?

Would love to hear all your views.

[GabrielRice]

There's nothing wrong with a dependent bass trombone. I played one professionally for several years, and many other professionals prefer it.

The side-by-side lever assembly is limiting though. If you get your triggers split and get used to it, many passages will be easier on your hands to play.

[Kingfan]

I switched from a dependent (Holton TR-180) to independent (King 7B) a few years back. I do find the King a bit easier to play fast and low, but IMHO a single valve bass is still a bass. One of the best bass bone players locally plays a Conn 72H with one lonely valve and nails it. He ain't no fraud no way no how!

[Kevbach33]

A few of us find an independent second valve as another tool to use, and it can be handy for a given piece of music. For instance, the last bit of "Cry Me a River" (arranged by Sean Evans) is in the key of Eb minor, and doing that part on first valve is a lot of work to me. I've found it much easier to use the second valve there, only using first valve together for the low Cb's. I'm sure there are other examples, but that one sticks out the most to me.

Not everyone sees the second valve this way; however, most of us would agree that it's nice having Db and Gb (D and G if a G valve) in 1st instead of no man's land 5th (4th).

For trigger arrangement, there's nothing wrong with side-by-side or stacked triggers on a dependent bass if they work for you.

There's nothing RIGHT with side-by-side or stacked triggers on an independent bass; they are the reason split triggers exist. It also just so happens that split triggers help a lot of dependent players.

Ymmv.

[Burgerbob]

I played dependent throughout undergrad, including difficult solo and ensemble rep. I didn't have any troubles.

I learned independent shortly after and haven't looked back. I use the 2nd valve all the time.

If I had stayed on dependent? I'd still be fine. But it sure is nice to have the options.

[ghmerrill]

I'm kind of a bass trombone fraud as well -- having been trained as a woodwind player for 15 years in my youth and then (after a long hiatus) moving to low brass in my late mid-40s. Totally self-taught in brass, So with that caveat/intro ...

I use my Gb (and combo Gb/D) valves a LOT. Part of that is because I don't view an independent bass as basically a big straight trombone with a couple of valves tacked on. Part of it is just for the technical facility it provides in various passages. And part of it is so I can almost totally avoid 6th and 7th positions. I don't think that indy basses are morally superior to dependent basses, or that double-valve basses are superior to single-valve basses. But I really just enjoy playing the indy bass by taking advantage of the capabilities and options it presents.

[OneTon]

I am not hearing anyone say they have run into a lick or phrase dependent valves won’t handle. I have not. My Duo-Gravis blows good: King got it right. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

[Matt K]

Ironically, Gb valve is really comfortable for F. I have a G attachment and use it all the time for notes people would typically use the F attachment for, middle of bass clef C and G, F#, and F because it keeps me close to the middle of the slide. Also my ring finger is a little more easy to actuate than the thumb.

If I went dependent I would almost prefer a Bb/G/D or Bb/Gb/D rather than Bb/F/D. Dependent setups do have that extra taper in the neckpipe which definitely isn't nothing. Same deal with single plug ones too. I have a single valve section that I really like.

[hyperbolica]

I'm a definite bass bone fraud, and I've got everything you want. Having that stuff doesn't make you a genuine bass trombonist. Don't confuse popular or unpopular equipment with your dedication level.

Any valve tuning has its advantages. Young people are too swayed by popularity and don't seem to understand individualism. The trigger setups, though, are a matter of ergonomics. I've tried some of them, and found them hard to work with. I think I could make the Holton Glantz bar work, but the Olds over and under, the Conn saxophone rollers and the Duo Gravis arrangement are things I'd have trouble dealing with. But I could easily work with E, Eb or D tuning. I wound up with D/Gb because that was the way my horn came, and the mfgr wouldn't change it to Eb/G.

In the words of Yoda, Do or do not, there is no try.

[EZSlider]

Ironically, Gb valve is really comfortable for F. I have a G attachment and use it all the time for notes people would typically use the F attachment for, middle of bass clef C and G, F#, and F because it keeps me close to the middle of the slide. Also my ring finger is a little more easy to actuate than the thumb.

If I went dependent I would almost prefer a Bb/G/D or Bb/Gb/D rather than Bb/F/D. Dependent setups do have that extra taper in the neckpipe which definitely isn't nothing. Same deal with single plug ones too. I have a single valve section that I really like.

Right there with Matt.. pretty sure I use my G valve more than my F.. But then I wasn't raised on a Bb F setup
As far as what makes a "real" bass player. I think it's about being able to produce a believable sound and the ability to play the rep you need to.. Having all the gear to do what's fun and interesting(to you) ways might just makes you a gear geek. Which I most definitely am
EZ

[JohnL]

...most of us would agree that it's nice having Db and Gb (D and G if a G valve) in 1st instead of no man's land 5th (4th).

I'm a dyed in the wool indy player and I would have to disagree. Even back when my second valve was tuned to G, I didn't use it for playing D's and G's in first position (I've long since transition to flat G, so nothing lines up in first position anyway). Then again, I don't often play C's and F's in first position with the first valve, either - I play 'em in flat third with the second valve.

[Cmillar]

Nothing wrong with bass trombones of either kind of setup, right? Depends on your musical priorities and sound concept, etc. etc. etc.

....and compared to a bass trombone player like Dave Taylor, we're all frauds!

[TomInME]

Low B separates the frauds from the members, regardless of your equipment.

That said, for tricky stuff independent often provides some options/advantages that dependent doesn't. Outside of that, I think the differences are very small.

[Mertelstein]

I've really loved reading this thread. Thanks to everyone who posted and engaged in it. Two comments in particular chimed:

- EZ's comment that: "I think it's about being able to produce a believable sound and the ability to play the rep you need to."
- Aidan's comment that: "It sure is nice to have the option."

You've all definitely reassured me there's nothing wrong with being a dependent-only player (although I might be missing out on some serious "GAS" as I am a gear geek).

Going off on a tangent, but I found the comments on the trigger set-up really interesting. I know a lot of people really don't like the DG stacked triggers, but I think because it was the horn I played on since 14 (many many years ago) I got used to it and find it really easy to move rapidly around (helped by the free-flowing valves). There is really nothing to compare to this in commercial / big band work in my mind.

My 73H took a lot of getting used to, and I really still don't like the "saxophone roller" type thing - as others have said, it's definitely more cumbersome to move around. Two things put me off having it split: firstly, I love the string linkages and can't work out how you'd maintain it if you split them; and secondly the "bar spaghetti" you'd need to thread through from the valve to a finger trigger. The latter is just my limited imagination; but re: the former I've not seen a 73H which has been split and which maintained the string linkages.

[Bach5G]

A teacher told me he only used his Gb lever alone to play low F in tune.

[hyperbolica]

Low B separates the frauds from the members, regardless of your equipment.

I can play low B, but I'm still a fraud.

A teacher told me he only used his Gb lever alone to play low F in tune.

I use mine for Db and Gb in flat 1st position. That's the only thing I couldn't do on a dependent. I tune the F side to play F in tune right up to the bumpers, C is about half an inch out.

[ithinknot]

Two things put me off having it split: firstly, I love the string linkages and can't work out how you'd maintain it if you split them

You absolutely can. People generally don't, because they mistakenly believe miniballs to be an upgrade, but it's not mandatory.

and secondly the "bar spaghetti" you'd need to thread through from the valve to a finger trigger.

That's true of all second triggers to some extent... the 73H wouldn't be unusual.

Anyway, for a good tech none of this is particularly complicated.

[Mertelstein]

Anyway, for a good tech none of this is particularly complicated.

Ah yes, the quest for a good tech…the one recommended in the Brussels area has just retired, so looks like it’s a hike up to the Netherlands and Atelier Pfeiffer is in order…

[Kbiggs]

Dependent trombones often have one difference that, for some, is key. They usually have a longer and more tapered neckpipe after the F-valve, which makes a difference in response and feel. For some, extra inch or so is worth the trade-off in options.

[DougHulme]

Many amazing Bass Trombonists still only use one valve and clearly they are not frauds - its how you play that counts. The most famous one valve player was Mr Bass Trombone himself, George Roberts and he once said "Sound is everything". Fraud... no.

[Mertelstein]

Many amazing Bass Trombonists still only use one valve and clearly they are not frauds - its how you play that counts. The most famous one valve player was Mr Bass Trombone himself, George Roberts and he once said "Sound is everything". Fraud... no.

You aren’t kidding. There are some truly wonderful recordings of him on YouTube still. The sound is just absolutely gorgeous all the way through the career no matter what horn he played on. “Sound is everything” - so right.

[GGJazz]

Hello all .

I sarted to play bass trbn on a Olds George Roberts model , single valve .
Reaĺly good horn . In my opinion , playing a single valve horn could be very challenging ; not because the low B , but because if you have to play a fast line in which you have to connect low C with pedal Bb ( or something like that) , good luck!
Anyway , if you do not have to play thing like these , it is also a good choice.

Then , i moved to an independent horn , a King 8B . With the independents valves , of course you have a lot of great choices , that allow you to develop a fast and clean technical skill in the low range , and in the staff notes ( C , Db , Gb , etc ).

From 15 years on I am playing a dependent horn , a King Duo Gravis ( F / bE tuning , and I have also the D crook for the second valve) . I think this is the perfect one . Allow me all the technical stuff I need , and the horn is more responsive and open , to me .

Anyway , I think that could be a good experience for a bass trbn player to have the chance to play on each of this options we have ( single valve , dependent valves , independents valves) , staying with one horn at the time for a while , and then choose the one that fits better our ability and needs .

Regards
Giancarlo

[musicofnote]

I started bass on a Bach 50OG, independent, that I HATED. I finally sold it and my Bach 42OG and bought my present Yamaha Xeno 822g, a dependent. I love it. I haven't played everything there is for bass trombone, but have not run into anything that was "impossible" on my dependent system, not in the orchestral literature I've played (with quite a bit of contemporary music), not in the solo literature I've learned, not in the trombone quartet I played in for 20 years, not in the Big Bands I've subbed in. Hasn't been an issue. The issue could have been sound, but as opposed to what "people" said back in the day, my 822g has fit in with all sorts of instruments and no one has complained. That I got asked to come back, I understand as an agreeable adjudication of the noise I was making.