Tales of The BoreScope ------ The Continuing Saga

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Sun May 28, 2017 6:20 pm

I am excited ! A few days ago I picked up a "minty" Conn 62H off Craigslist. A great deal and a beautiful sounding ax. However, as I became accustomed to its quite different traits compared to my trusty King 8B and Duo Gravis, I realized that there was more than one note that I simply could not "center". I had an "Ah-ha" moment when I recalled the results I had previously achieved using a $10 borescope to peer down the tubing of both of my Kings and discovered grossly mis-aligned valves that were keeping them from blowing to their full potential. [See the other discussion about borescoping in "Repairs, Modifications and Maintenance"] I located the wondrous little device, plugged it into my ancient SONY laptop [which seems to love my borescoping habit] and DAMN !! Both valves [its an independent set-up] were clearly a good 1/8" closed when at point of rest !! With 1/8" equaling 125 thousandths, we have effectively closed the bore of the horn at that point to .455. Seeing that C.G. Conn specifications for the 62H are : Primary bore - .562 ---- Bore through valve section .580, it is easy to see that we end up with a smaller bore through the valve section than that of the primary bore. So much for the "selling point" of relieving the impedance of the valve section. Yeah --- I know that the rest of the valve section bore is actually .580, but it's a lot like driving down a velvet-smooth highway and suddenly hitting a pothole --- in this case, TWO of them ! Anyway, I got out the X-Acto knives, pulled out the rubber bumpers and shaved off a "Guess-Ta-Mation" of how much to remove, replaced the bumpers in their seats, and ---Voila ! --- I lucked out on the first try and both valves nestled sweetly aligned to the .580 tubing in which they were intended to function. Did it make a difference in how the horn blows ? Let me put it this way : It is the first time I've actually considered retirement as an option for my beloved King 8B. When the valves are activated, the "activated point of rest" is affected by the amount of force that the individual player exerts on the levers. Also, if the rubber bumpers are of a softer material, it can considerably affect that measurement. In other words --- mileage can vary !
Buy one of these $10 gems ! You can't hurt yourself, electrocute yourself nor damage your favorite trombone or computer by following my observations. If you are faint of heart about doing the "slicing and dicing" usually required, once you have the facts you can take it to your favorite repair shop and pay them to do the deed, but believe me, the results in every instance have been from great to "unbelievable" !!! So ----- next time you start thinking about buying a new horn in hopes of bypassing certain annoying characteristics of your present trombone of choice, remember this bit of advice ---- DON'T ! I hope it's not necessary to remind those of our brothers and sisters who play "straight" horns that following my advice will not only be frustrating and counter-productive, but may cause your "significant other" to consider medical intervention ! Cheers to all !! Bob

ttf_Tbonedude · Post by **ttf_Tbonedude** » Mon May 29, 2017 5:12 am

Wow, that borescope really seems to come in handy. I'm tempted to buy one, because my Conn euph has quite a few places in the range where the "center" is really loose. Could be because it's leaking somewhere. I guess the borescope could be used for finding leaks, too.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Mon May 29, 2017 6:08 am

Well, I can't believe I haven't already bought one of these; that's quite unlike me. I've got one on order now

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Mon May 29, 2017 7:33 am

Quote from: Tbonedude on May 29, 2017, 05:12AMWow, that borescope really seems to come in handy. I'm tempted to buy one, because my Conn euph has quite a few places in the range where the "center" is really loose. Could be because it's leaking somewhere. I guess the borescope could be used for finding leaks, too.

I don't think so. For leaks, you need to plug the bore, put it in a bathtub, and blow air through it. It's not likely that air would make it through the kind of leak you'd have in a trombone.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Mon May 29, 2017 7:54 am

Quote from: Tbonedude on May 29, 2017, 05:12AMWow, that borescope really seems to come in handy. I'm tempted to buy one, because my Conn euph has quite a few places in the range where the "center" is really loose. Could be because it's leaking somewhere. I guess the borescope could be used for finding leaks, too.

If you DO order one, be sure it comes with the little accessory kit that has a mirror for looking at 90" to the end of the scope. And remember to CAREFULLY remove the protective shipping plastic from the tiny mirror.

You need the 90 degree attachment to be able to look at the line-up of the euph valves, IF you can see them at all, because tubing tends to go around corners just before getting to the valves.

The good news is, if you can find just one port on each valve to look at you should have all pretty much handled. There could be OTHER obstruction in the port, but you can remove the valves and use the side attachment to look down the tubes for those.

If you find the ports(s) are misaligning, think of the re-padding of the valve travel washers as an adventure. It will make you appreciate the relative ease of adjusting rotarty valves

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Mon May 29, 2017 8:15 am

so with one of these could I give myself a colonoscopy next time and save the 8 grand?

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Mon May 29, 2017 8:26 am

I'm glad that the message is getting out there ! I noticed that there was a turn to discussing euphonium valve alignment and I'd like to add a discovery I made yesterday. I was preparing a Conn 50-I that I acquired many years ago for sale. I was cleaning up the valves and noticed that the previous owner had inserted several paper discs resembling those "gummed reinforcements" that were sold to strengthen the point in loose leaf notebooks where the paper meets the binder ring. He'd placed them under the damper felts atop the valves. Doggone !! Here was an early "tweaker" who was shimming his valves to achieve a better alignment ! I dated the Conn serial number to 1934, so this guy must have been an avant garde individual. Some paperwork in the case tipped me off to the fact that the original owner worked in Washington, D.C. at ------ get this ---- The National Bureau of Standards & Measurements ! I guess he came by his habits honestly. He maintained the euphonium religiously and it is amazingly well preserved for an over 80 year old instrument. There was even the original key to the case --- and --- a Conn #10 "Simone Mantia" Signature model mouthpiece ! Anyone interested ? Cheers !! Bob

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Mon May 29, 2017 12:02 pm

Bob,

I could not locate the previous thread on borescoping. Could you please provide us with the information on the borescope that you find useful, and where to buy it? I'd like to purchase one.

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Mon May 29, 2017 3:04 pm

Posaunous : The original borescope thread was on "Trombone Chat". I started it and then Boneagain followed up with some terrific photos to explain the process. I just checked and , unfortunately, the pictures have been removed even though the links are there. It's a real shame because the photos were very informative. It should be part of a "Knowledge Base" here on TTF. I hope you have success in finding it now. Cheers !! Bob

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon May 29, 2017 5:15 pm

I hope Bubbachet is working on it, but Trombone Chat has been having some severe problems with images. When they first "opened for business" it was everything we wanted TTF to be. But suddenly my avatar disappeared and I couldn't upload one. Wound up linking to the one I have here.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Mon May 29, 2017 5:35 pm

Quote from: Terraplane8Bob on May 29, 2017, 03:04PMPosaunous : The original borescope thread was on "Trombone Chat". I started it and then Boneagain followed up with some terrific photos to explain the process. I just checked and , unfortunately, the pictures have been removed even though the links are there. It's a real shame because the photos were very informative. It should be part of a "Knowledge Base" here on TTF. I hope you have success in finding it now. Cheers !! Bob

Just tried putting those images back. It was SO easy the first time... as it used to be here... no luck.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon May 29, 2017 5:53 pm

I know this is tangential to the actual topic but I'm working on a solution that is independent of these platforms. With the free cloud services that exist there's not much of a reason to host them on a forum... stay tuned.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon May 29, 2017 8:09 pm

After quickly searching for cheap borescopes... is 7mm a typical useful diameter?

And what software do you use to view the video in real time?

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Mon May 29, 2017 9:47 pm

Robcat : My borescope is 5mm, but I'm sure that 7mm would work equally well. It came with a mini CD with a software program, but I simply plugged it into my USB port and it was "plug & play" using Windows XP. My recollection was that it cost something like $8.76 including postage! There is a model that terminates with a mini USB that you can plug into your cellphone instead of a computer. I bought one with a 3' length so I could look to the bottom of the handslide. Be sure to get one with a rheostat on the LEDs because sometimes they are too bright to see things clearly. Have fun ! Cheers !! Bob

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Tue May 30, 2017 4:56 am

Expanding a tiny bit on what Bob said: 7mm may be too large to make it into the bend in the slide.

For my aging Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 I had to try several apps before I found one that worked with the OTG adapter for my tablet.

On my even older Asus Netbook the camera software seems selective about when it will recognize the external camera, and sometimes takes a reboot to get there, but it's running Linux, so it's a bit of a miracle that it works at all.

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Wed May 31, 2017 5:20 am

Tech note for gear heads trying this. The borescope I bought wouldn't work with USB 3. It does fine with USB 2, or when I have it passed through a USB 2 hub into my USB 3 devices.

(Yes, I know... USB 3 is backwards compatible...

lol.)

Works great. Just not in a USB 3 port.

Passing this along for others.

--Andy in OKC

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed May 31, 2017 6:07 am

It sounds like it may be a power issue not necessarily a USB3 issue. If your hub is powered that may have been why it worked in one but not the other.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed May 31, 2017 10:01 am

Quote from: Matt K on May 31, 2017, 06:07AMIt sounds like it may be a power issue not necessarily a USB3 issue. If your hub is powered that may have been why it worked in one but not the other.

I can confirm that when plugged directly into a USB3 plug on the computer, it does not function. Nor did I get any power warnings.

When plugged directly into my Mac - it sees it but I get no video and QuickTime doesn't recognize. When I plug it in to the USB hub (which is 2.0) I then it works as expected. The hub in my case did have to have power; when it wasn't powered, I got an error saying the device required more power.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed May 31, 2017 10:09 am

USB can be wonky like that. Sometimes you don't get a power message even though it needs more power... I think its because of peripheral things such as lights that technically will still "work" without enough power but won't report they need more power to the machine running it.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:17 am

To confirm that USB3 is the problem, you should try a powered USB3 hub. I'm betting you'll find it works.

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:25 am

Power could certainly be the issue. In my case, the USB 2 hub was unpowered. YMMV. (Your mileage may vary.

)

--Andy in OKC

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:05 am

Quote from: afugate on Jun 05, 2017, 06:25AMPower could certainly be the issue. In my case, the USB 2 hub was unpowered. YMMV. (Your mileage may vary.

)

--Andy in OKC

Well, there you go! Technology for you lol

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:05 am

Quote from: afugate on Jun 05, 2017, 06:25AMPower could certainly be the issue. In my case, the USB 2 hub was unpowered. YMMV. (Your mileage may vary.

)

--Andy in OKC

Well, there you go! Technology for you lol