New Horn Day: Old Tuba

[bassclef]

I'd been more seriously tuba shopping for a few months now looking for a 4-valve 3/4 size BBb.

Ideally, I wanted a Yamaha YBB-621 but those rarely pop up used and when they do they go for $5k-$8k. Well above my budget for this addition. Since I have a few jobs coming up this year where I'll need one, the first being in May, I needed to get something and start learning how to play it. I had pretty much resigned myself to laying out around $2k-$3k for one of the various Chinese horns with the specs listed above.

Then, a 1960's Mahillon 390 got listed on FB Marketplace. Except for maybe having the valves on the front, this horn met all of my criteria and appeared to possibly be in better shape than any 60+ year old tuba I have ever seen. This past weekend, after getting home about 1:30am from a Friday night big band job, I hauled myself out of bed at 7:30am to make the 7 hour drive to Chicago to pick it up.

Mahillon390.JPG

MahillonBadge.JPG

Turns out it was in even better shape in person. I didn't even try to talk down the price, mostly because some of the noticeable dents in the listing photos were gone. It needs a cleaning, one stuck slide freed up and may need the valves replated at some point, but I'm really excited about it. Even if I have to put a grand into this horn, travel costs aside, I am still coming in under the cost of one of the Chinese horns I was considering.

Trying not to ramble too much, I only knew what this horn was because of one of my first musical heroes, Howard Johnson, who played this model for most of his career before he got Meinl-Weston to make him a signature model which was essentially a copy of the Mahillon. Howard and I are both from Massillon, Ohio. He came back to work with our jazz band for a week leading up to a concert feature when I was a senior in HS. He utterly melted my young mind both with what he was able to do on his horns and get us students to do in a short amount of time. 10 or so years later, I found him on Facebook and he remembered me. We spoke somewhat regularly after that and he was one of the kindest and most encouraging people I have ever met, to say nothing of his musical accolades. I miss him.

So, my lifetime sum of experience playing tuba is now up to about 90 minutes. So far, it's a lot harder than I thought it would be, to be honest. Can anyone offer some advice to someone getting started on this double? The slots are SO WIDE compared to bass trombone. I think the mouthpiece I have could be a little big for me at this point in my development (Faxx Helleberg 7B). I have some smaller ones inbound to try out, in descending order of size: Faxx 18, Faxx 24AW and a Yamaha BB-65.

Thanks for reading!

[ghmerrill]

Very nice! And I see it's one of Walter Sear's imports. If you don't know about Walter, you should research him a bit -- a very interesting guy in several ways. One thing that's great about this horn is that -- given it's birth date -- it should play nicely at A=440. So no hacking will be necessary. And it's not too big and cumbersome.

My 1924 Buescher Eb needed to be cut down (from A=435), and the valves are worn (as you might expect), but only the 3rd one leaks just a little bit. With luck you really won't need to mess with replating the valves -- which is good because practically no one does that nowadays and the expense would be significant. But I bet it will work well as-is, maybe with something like Yamaha "Vintage" valve oil (or similar).

It's a great find.

Is the receiver normal current "US tuba" size? I'm guessing it's either that or some reasonable Euro large tuba shank size so getting mouthpieces for it shouldn't be a problem. After messing around for years, I finally got out the torch and replaced the receiver ("old European small shank") on mine -- which helped.

[Kevbach33]

Welcome to "tubadom!"

This tuba should have a 16 mm (~⅝") bore size, which is TINY for a BBb. (The Meinl Weston "HoJo" models have a 17mm bore.) Once you get used to the kind of air it needs (I like to describe it as large volume and low pressure) it should be quite efficient.

Long. Tones. Use a tuner. Focus on the corners of your chops and produce the most efficient buzz you can to get the instrument to resonate (you'll know when you feel it). How is the 3rd valve by itself for low G 8ba and the D above it? 4th for low F and C above? What other notes need alternate fingerings?

The Helleberg 7B you're using now isn't all that big, I think; having played the Conn equivalent in high school, it's pretty conservative in size. The funnel shaped cup does make it free blowing for its size though.

The 24AW may be a smaller inside diameter, but it's a good bit deeper and has a huge throat. The 18 is a bigger inner diameter (I think) and should also have a huge throat. Not sure about the Yamaha, but it seems to be similar to a Bach/Faxx 25 and is likely the best fit for you at this point.

Don't be surprised if your preference goes something like this: 65, HB7B, 24AW, 18. Or, maybe not. Only you can decide after playing them all.

Good luck!

[ghmerrill]

Bach 25 (or equivalent) is my universal recommendation for starting on tuba. In fact, it's what I currently use on my 100 year old Buescher Eb (well, the Kelly version of it). The Bach 18 is a kind of "move up" from the 25, and the 7B is a good piece. The 24AW should be used only as a doorstop or fishing weight. By comparison, on my big Wessex Eb I use either a Wick 3XL or 2XL, depending mostly on how much time I need to spend in the contra range. On my BBb Czech/German horns I used several different pieces over the years -- usually Schilke or Perantucci -- but my absolute goto tuba mouthpiece is the Schilke 66. It always works on anything it fits into. As in all brass playing, you need to find what works best for you. But I wouldn't expect a particularly large mouthpiece to work best on your horn.

[bassclef]

Very nice! And I see it's one of Walter Sear's imports. If you don't know about Walter, you should research him a bit -- a very interesting guy in several ways.

Will do!

With luck you really won't need to mess with replating the valves -- which is good because practically no one does that nowadays and the expense would be significant. But I bet it will work well as-is, maybe with something like Yamaha "Vintage" valve oil (or similar).

That's good to hear. They came to me well oiled and the action is great. The only undesirable noise they make is due to the old felts. There's no grinding or metal-on-metal sounds or sensations at all. I think they still seal okay. There's just a little "pop" left when you push/pull a slide and then depress the valve. Maybe not as much as they should though, will leave that up to my tech when it goes in for a cleaning & assessment here soon. If it does come down to a full valve job including replating, I personally think this horn would be worth that investment both for what it is and what I paid for it.

I did just check out some valve oil options like what you mentioned. Looks like UltraPure Black Label or Hetman's "Classic" are comparable choices. Not sure what's on them now.

Is the receiver normal current "US tuba" size? I'm guessing it's either that or some reasonable Euro large tuba shank size so getting mouthpieces for it shouldn't be a problem. After messing around for years, I finally got out the torch and replaced the receiver ("old European small shank") on mine -- which helped.

Yep - modern tuba mouthpiece shanks seem to seat perfectly.

[ghmerrill]

The valve guides may be worn. These are easily replaceable, but I don't know what kind are on that horn. The tech will tell you. If they're the old screw-in brass ones and he wants to replace them, ask him about using plastic (nylon, whatever). That's what I replaced mine with and they're totally silent now. The trade-off is that the nylon ones wear faster -- so the choice often depends on how much you'll use the instrument.

It should be a kick to play.

[bassclef]

Welcome to "tubadom!"

Thanks, I am excited to finally be here!

This tuba should have a 16 mm (~⅝") bore size, which is TINY for a BBb. (The Meinl Weston "HoJo" models have a 17mm bore.) Once you get used to the kind of air it needs (I like to describe it as large volume and low pressure) it should be quite efficient.

That backs up what I found on the tubenet and dwerden forums - .625 bore. One or two of the Chinese 3/4 BBb horns I was considering were even a bit smaller than that.

Long. Tones. Use a tuner. Focus on the corners of your chops and produce the most efficient buzz you can to get the instrument to resonate (you'll know when you feel it).

Right on. I realized almost immediately that I was going to need to spend time on long tones even before I "progress" to scales. This might be weird, but I am having trouble consistently being able to find where Bb is ( ) on the open horn. The note my chops "naturally" want to play on the open horn is F, which actually resonates wonderfully. If I can get the rest of the notes sounding like F does now, I am going to be VERY happy with this horn. Once I can find the Bb though, the fingerings for the rest of the Bb scale are there. Struggling to play a Bb on a Bb horn is something that caught me off guard.

How is the 3rd valve by itself for low G 8ba and the D above it? 4th for low F and C above? What other notes need alternate fingerings?

I think the standard fingerings are okay...but I probably need some more time on the absolute basics of sound production before I can give correct answers to those questions. I will have more time to dig in on long tones & drone/tuner work soon, I hope.

The 24AW may be a smaller inside diameter, but it's a good bit deeper and has a huge throat. The 18 is a bigger inner diameter (I think) and should also have a huge throat. Not sure about the Yamaha, but it seems to be similar to a Bach/Faxx 25 and is likely the best fit for you at this point.

I didn't have a 25 on my list, but I do now - thanks. And also thanks for the heads up on the cup depth and throat width of the 24AW. I am having trouble finding published throat measurements for Bach (and Faxx). Bach also has a 24W which has the same cup diameter as the 24AW (31.25mm) but mention that it's good for school bands so maybe it has a shallower cup and/or tighter throat? I think I'll try one of those as well.

The Yamaha 65 has an 30.95 cup and an 8.35 throat. They also make a 64 (30.45/8.35) and a 66B (31.37/8.35) which also interest me, on paper anyway.

All of the above have smaller cup diameters than the FHB-7B (31.85). Throat size is the mouthpiece spec to which I am most sensitive on bass trombone. I like just a bit of noticeable resistance, if I can get it.

Don't be surprised if your preference goes something like this: 65, HB7B, 24AW, 18. Or, maybe not. Only you can decide after playing them all.

Good luck!

We'll see! It makes total sense that smaller is better for me at this point in the game and I am also thinking that the bore size of my tuba might lend itself to working and sounding great with a smaller mouthpiece even when I may feel "ready" for something bigger. I didn't buy this horn to anchor a large wind ensemble or symphony orchestra. The primary use is going to be pit work and some big band stuff. Some of the latter being things that Howard did back in the day!

Thanks for all of the info and advice!!

[bassclef]

The valve guides may be worn. These are easily replaceable, but I don't know what kind are on that horn. The tech will tell you. If they're the old screw-in brass ones and he wants to replace them, ask him about using plastic (nylon, whatever). That's what I replaced mine with and they're totally silent now. The trade-off is that the nylon ones wear faster -- so the choice often depends on how much you'll use the instrument.

I don't have a lot of experience with piston valves, but it's likely that guides are somewhat worn. I am also unsure if there's any option to replace them with nylon as the design seems somewhat primitive compared to say the valves on my Yamaha 321 euphonium. On the Mahillon, there is a vertical, rectangular metal tab near the top of the piston valve body itself which fits into a longer vertical channel milled into the interior of the casing. I only hear the guides make noise when I horizontally rotate the valve buttons when the valves are screwed in. I'm sure there's supposed to be a bit of play there though. The noise they make when playing is definitely the "clunk" of rock-hard, compressed old felts.

It should be a kick to play.

It's a ways off yet at this point, but I have heard and felt a couple brief glimpses of what this horn will do once I dial in a mouthpiece choice and learn how to make it happen and I am excited!

[ghmerrill]

On the Mahillon, there is a vertical, rectangular metal tab near the top of the piston valve body itself which fits into a longer vertical channel milled into the interior of the casing.

This is the standard "old way" for the valve guides. That "metal tab" is the guide that rides in the guide slot. It unscrews and a new one can be put in. Ferree's sells brass ones. But plastic ones can be made from plastic "cheese head" screws. Trimming/fitting is always required, no matter which approach is taken. When you clean the pistons and cylinders, make sure you clean that guide slot well.

Unless it's really clanky and wiggles a bunch from side to side, it should just be left alone. The tech will tell you for sure.

[bassclef]

Bach 25 (or equivalent) is my universal recommendation for starting on tuba. In fact, it's what I currently use on my 100 year old Buescher Eb (well, the Kelly version of it). The Bach 18 is a kind of "move up" from the 25, and the 7B is a good piece. The 24AW should be used only as a doorstop or fishing weight. By comparison, on my big Wessex Eb I use either a Wick 3XL or 2XL, depending mostly on how much time I need to spend in the contra range. On my BBb Czech/German horns I used several different pieces over the years -- usually Schilke or Perantucci -- but my absolute goto tuba mouthpiece is the Schilke 66. It always works on anything it fits into. As in all brass playing, you need to find what works best for you.

Thanks again for the info.

But I wouldn't expect a particularly large mouthpiece to work best on your horn.

We'll see how I develop...but with what I am dealing with so far - if that statement is true (and it probably is) I think that's more validation that I bought the right horn!

[Kevbach33]

Long. Tones. Use a tuner. Focus on the corners of your chops and produce the most efficient buzz you can to get the instrument to resonate (you'll know when you feel it).

Right on. I realized almost immediately that I was going to need to spend time on long tones even before I "progress" to scales. This might be weird, but I am having trouble consistently being able to find where Bb is ( ) on the open horn. The note my chops "naturally" want to play on the open horn is F, which actually resonates wonderfully. If I can get the rest of the notes sounding like F does now, I am going to be VERY happy with this horn. Once I can find the Bb though, the fingerings for the rest of the Bb scale are there. Struggling to play a Bb on a Bb horn is something that caught me off guard.

That's not unusual... Producing a good F ( ) is a good first step. For long tone work, you could do something like F, E, F#, Eb, G, etc. to learn how the other notes "feel" as you play them.

Also try slurring through the partials.

I didn't have a 25 on my list, but I do now - thanks. And also thanks for the heads up on the cup depth and throat width of the 24AW. I am having trouble finding published throat measurements for Bach (and Faxx). Bach also has a 24W which has the same cup diameter as the 24AW (31.25mm) but mention that it's good for school bands so maybe it has a shallower cup and/or tighter throat? I think I'll try one of those as well.

Referencing the Bach catalogue, the 24W is the same piece as a 24AW with only a shallower cup, but no more shallow than the other sizes. Throat size is the same as the 18 and 7 (Bach's biggest tuba piece) at .348"/8.84mm. The other sizes have a .328"/8.33mm throat, neither huge nor small.

Faxx pieces are copies of certain examples of each size they make, with the exception of the two Helleberg sizes using the Bach style blank.

Throat size is the mouthpiece spec to which I am most sensitive on bass trombone. I like just a bit of noticeable resistance, if I can get it.

Understandable. As I've read, 8.3mm or thereabouts is usually a pretty safe throat size for most tuba players, including myself. (But I use pieces with 33 mm inner diameters; tuba is my main instrument, and I need the room to allow my lips to crank out low F's and below for concert band work.)

I didn't buy this horn to anchor a large wind ensemble or symphony orchestra. The primary use is going to be pit work and some big band stuff. Some of the latter being things that Howard did back in the day!

Thanks for all of the info and advice!!

Just wait; someone will ask you to sub in a concert band or orchestra at some point. It's only a matter of when.

And right on with the jazz tuba!

[Doug Elliott]

The Helleberg 7B is not a large mouthpiece at all. Just stay on that, it should be fine.

[dukesboneman]

Congratulations !!!
Those are wonderful instruments. I have the exact same horn.
I bought mine after about 30 years f casually looking for it.
This is the exact same model that that famed Tubist/Bari sax player Howard Johnson played forever.
Don`t let the bore size fool you. You can get a big sound on this baby.
I have found with mine that the horn runs a bit sharp. As you progress, spend some time with a tuner
to see where it plays in tune.
It took me quite a while to find a mouthpiece that fit the horn. For years I played a Bach 24W for everything Tuba.
The Mahillon did not like the Bach at all.
I`ve settled on 3 different mouthpiece that really make the horn work for me.
An original Miraphone Rose Orchestral, A Yamaha Jim Self replica and an old Giardinelli Helleberg.
Don`t feel that you need to play a small mouthpiece when switching over to Tuba.
Word of advice from someone that`s been there, Once you start getting comfortable on the horn , get with a tuba player/teacher. It`s NOT a big trombone. Many embouchure and tonguing things are different
You`ll love the horn. (I attached a pic of mine)

[ghmerrill]

The Helleberg 7B is not a large mouthpiece at all. Just stay on that, it should be fine.

I've never tried one of these (among the countless tuba mouthpieces I've tried over the decades) -- but mostly because Schilke has that size covered -- the 7B being in some respects like the Schilke 66 and in others like the 62. The only reason I typically recommend the Bach 25 as a starter (though in general I detest the Bach tuba and trombone mouthpieces) is that it's bowl-shaped rather than the funnel-shape of the Hellebergs, and articulation is typically a bit easier for beginning players.

Just stay away from the revered Conn 120-S for a while until you know what you're doing. A huge number of people love the 120, but I've never been able to use it. It just seems to suck the air out of my lungs.

[ghmerrill]

Congratulations !!!
It`s NOT a big trombone.

And although structurally it is in fact a "big euphonium," it's not really a big euphonium either (paradoxical as that may seem).

[bassclef]

The Helleberg 7B is not a large mouthpiece at all. Just stay on that, it should be fine.

That was actually my thinking when I picked up that mouthpiece years in advance of owning a tuba.

[bassclef]

Congratulations !!!
Those are wonderful instruments. I have the exact same horn.
I bought mine after about 30 years f casually looking for it.
This is the exact same model that that famed Tubist/Bari sax player Howard Johnson played forever.
Don`t let the bore size fool you. You can get a big sound on this baby.
I have found with mine that the horn runs a bit sharp. As you progress, spend some time with a tuner
to see where it plays in tune.
It took me quite a while to find a mouthpiece that fit the horn. For years I played a Bach 24W for everything Tuba.
The Mahillon did not like the Bach at all.
I`ve settled on 3 different mouthpiece that really make the horn work for me.
An original Miraphone Rose Orchestral, A Yamaha Jim Self replica and an old Giardinelli Helleberg.
Don`t feel that you need to play a small mouthpiece when switching over to Tuba.
Word of advice from someone that`s been there, Once you start getting comfortable on the horn , get with a tuba player/teacher. It`s NOT a big trombone. Many embouchure and tonguing things are different
You`ll love the horn. (I attached a pic of mine)

Wow, that's a nice one!

I am wondering if some of my struggle with finding the center of notes thus far is due to the horn's pitch tendencies. A lot of that is me, of course, but the one slide I mentioned which is frozen in place currently is the main tuning slide. I see where yours is set and that looks similar to where that slide was on a couple others I was able to find photos of. If you look at my photo, it's much further in and I can't move it at the moment.

In regards to lessons - YES. I am going to take a couple, the first being soon.

Thanks for the info and advice!

[dukesboneman]

Bassclef,
When I 1st got the horn I couldn`t slot a pitch to save my life . I thought "Why did I buy This freakin` thing..
But I was playing in our bedroom, lots of pillows, blankets etc... I went out into the Living Room (Cathedral ceilings tile floor) relaxed and just played a long tone Bb scale at MF. The horn opened up. It liked a bigger room at 1st.
I was able to take a lesson with Aaron Tindel ( Tubist with the Naples Symphony) when he was with the Sarasota Orchestra. That made all the difference. I didn`t realize the different chop settings from Tuba to trombone. Now it`s just natural going back and forth.
I did use a Schilke 66 at first, Then a Schilke 62 , That was better. Keep relaxed and AIR, AIR AIR.......

[ghmerrill]

I went out into the Living Room (Cathedral ceilings tile floor) relaxed and just played a long tone Bb scale at MF. The horn opened up. It liked a bigger room at 1st.

My home practice room is 20'x20' with an 11' ceiling, slate floor. It makes a huge difference, especially for tuba.

I didn`t realize the different chop settings from Tuba to trombone.

Going the other way (tuba to bass trombone), it took me MONTHS to get what I thought was a decent sound on the trombone, and that's even after playing euph for several years as well. I was recording myself, and it was pretty depressing. Sounded like a tuba player trying to play trombone.

I did use a Schilke 66 at first, Then a Schilke 62 , That was better. Keep relaxed and AIR, AIR AIR.......

And rich, rich, rich resonance. It's a conical bore instrument: VERY different. Think "booming surround sound." The sound should envelop you as you cast it to the heavens. First chance you get, play it -- if only for a few minutes -- in an auditorium or concert hall. You'll be amazed.

[Digidog]

Cool horn! Congrats!

That looks in quite good condition for being some sixty years old.

May you get lots of good playing with it, and best of luck in your tuba endeavour.