What trombone is this? Really strange.

[Leanit]

For the latest installment of this game show, name that horn! There's a number stamped on the hand slide (4 or 5 digits), but not another mark.

In general:

• Small shank

• Large bell with enormous throat

• Narrow slide, with tuning in it

• Friction fit bell/slide mating. No slide lock.

• Flat wrap

• Trigger mechanism is a hinged gizmo on the bell brace (disconnected in photo)

• Age unknown, but definitely old. Predates all Chinese stuff by 50+ years.
  
  What the hell?
  
  IMG_4973.jpg
  IMG_4972.jpg
  IMG_4971.jpg
  IMG_4970.jpg

[Burgerbob]

Looks like an early Olds

[Leanit]

I think you're probably in the right area with the Olds assessment. The tuning mechanism matches this online picture of "Olds Wilbur DeParis", but that is a straight Bb horn.

OldsDeParisSlide.jpeg

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, that's an Olds, although I have to say I've never seen an F trigger rigged quite that way. Is there any engraving?

[JohnL]

Definitely looks like an Olds.

To me, it looks like something transitional between this horn:
http://itsabear.com/horns/1920_bass/c.1920_bass.html

and these two:
http://itsabear.com/horns/Std-SYM/Std-SYM.html

The valve has an Olds look to it,̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶e̶r̶t̶e̶d̶. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.

What's the story? Any chance I could get my grubby paws on it?

EDIT: Struck through comment about the valve being inverted; I was looking at it wrong.

[Leanit]

Zero engraving. I'm back at the same place for a show tonight, so I can try for a picture of the one number on it.
@JohnL - If you're anywhere near San Francisco, I'd be happy to retrieve it and lend it to you.
Best guess is that it belonged to Rogers Shoemaker, local trombone star from the 1930's to 1970's.

[JohnL]

@JohnL - If you're anywhere near San Francisco, I'd be happy to retrieve it and lend it to you.

I can be. I'm in SoCal, but I've been know to travel when something really interesting pops up.

Are you in The CIty or somewhere else in the region?

EDIT: Thanks for posting this. Interesting Olds stuff doesn't pop up very often.

[Posaunus]

This one would be a great addition to JohnL's It's A Bear collection!

[Leanit]

We can probably work something out. I'll see if I can bring it home tonight. Stay tuned.

[AtomicClock]

The valve has an Olds look to it, though it's inverted. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.

Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?

[JohnL]

The valve has an Olds look to it, though it's inverted. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.

Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?

On further examination, I don't think the valve is actually inverted. I'm just looking at it wrong.

But...

Your suggestion about it being reworked for a left-handed player? A definite possibility.

[Digidog]

The valve has an Olds look to it, though it's inverted. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.

Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?

Judging from the pictures, this is what I believe is the case here. To place the valve lever on the other side of the valve, could necessitate an extra brace like what's seen in the picture.

[Burgerbob]

I'd assume it was just to get a better thumb position to play normally. Those bell braces and levers are NOT made to be played by humans on those early horns.

[elmsandr]

Isn’t there an S bend that would make the position worse for a left hand player?

Cheers,
Andy

[JohnL]

Isn’t there an S bend that would make the position worse for a left hand player?

At this point, I'm inclined to reserve judgement until I see some better pictures. I can't really tell exactly what's going on here.

Those bell braces and levers are NOT made to be played by humans on those early horns.

I've always wondered if the intent was to normally wrap one's thumb around the brace [i[under[/i] the lever and only reach for the valve (and it is a bit of a reach) when needed.

[Leanit]

With better lighting and the hints from the guys on this thread, I think it's been nailed down.

Near the bell joint the slide clearly says SYM 5356. Bell serial number is 5095. So this appears to be a "Symphony" model Olds, and if the serial number research is correct, it dates to 1924. I can't find any pics of this model, and it doesn't say Olds or any branding on it. Just these SYM and s/n stamps. Indeed it does have the S bend Andy described and doesn't seem modded for a lefty in any way. Rotor body is stamped 95.

9" bell
Dual bore slide is .508/.533 by my measuring
Small mouthpiece shank

Stampings.

IMG_4978.jpg

IMG_4979.jpg

Offset for the thick-necked:

IMG_4980.jpg

The trigger mechanism: Long, hinged bracket hangs from the top of the bell brace. When actuated by pressing forward, it pulls a string through a guide tube that loops over the top of the rotor and rotates it forward via an attachment point. The string is broken. I'm not sure what it would take to hold this design without always having the trigger pressed. I'll play around with it.

IMG_4982.jpg

[hyperbolica]

Oh, that's a string guide. That works because the spring for the valve in in the valve itself, not in the lever. This looks like it was meant for a left hand grip with your thumb sticking up, possibly for someone with a thumb or forearm problem. The S bend was making figuring that area out kind of weird, but the additional view in the photos really helps. Very cool.

[Leanit]

Oh, that's a string guide. That works because the spring for the valve in in the valve itself, not in the lever. This looks like it was meant for a left hand grip with your thumb sticking up, possibly for someone with a thumb or forearm problem. The S bend was making figuring that area out kind of weird, but the additional view in the photos really helps. Very cool.

Correct. The rotor contains a return spring to keep it on the straight Bb side. Whether that spring can withstand my iron grip remains to be tested.

[JohnL]

I've seen Olds trombones with that sort of S curve before. I've always figured it was intended to allow a bit more room for someone with a thick neck (Olds slides from that era are pretty narrow, even on the larger bore instruments).

Here's what the original linkage may have looked like:

dogleg.jpg

from a horn in my collection:
http://itsabear.com/horns/SB_with_F/SB_with_F.html

You'll notice that it's a LONG reach to get to the valve lever. When I've played this horn, I tuck my thumb under the lever (there's plenty of room) unless I need the f-attachment.

I suspect that whole "hinge lever and guided string" linkage was someone's attempt to put a lever where it would be more comfortable to have the thumb over the lever all the time.

Whether that spring can withstand my iron grip remains to be tested.

The spring should be fine; the valve's travel is limited, so you can't overcompress the spring without breaking the stop post first (all of that stuff is underneath that silver cover on the back of the valve). I am curious as to how well the whole thing works.

[Leanit]

Update:

I found a different serial number on the bell (5096), which implies that the bell and slide weren't born together, but close to each other in 1924.
I installed a string for the rotor to test that actuator. It's not a good design. Not only is it loud when the lever hits the bell brace (could be solved with a strip of felt), the kinetics aren't good. The hinge is so far from where you impart force on the lever, and because it has just one little hinge pin, the whole thing tends to torque under your grip, making the lightweight lever twist and go a bit off line.

Cleaned up the slide a little. The instrument actually sounds and feels really, really good. Just needs a better trigger gizmo and a pro slide job. Good to go.

[JohnL]

Non-matching serials are pretty common on Olds horns of that era - to the point that matching serial numbers are pretty rare, particularly in the more common configurations (M and LM bores in the Self-Balancing and Standard models).

If the lever is hitting the bell brace, it might be doing so before the valve is fully rotated. At the very least, you should check the witness marks.

Adapting any sort of modern linkage is going to be a job for a really good tech. OTOH, I doubt if you'd be happy with a recreation of the original, even if you would find someone willing and able to do so.

Keep us posted on how it goes.

[brassmedic]

Non-matching serials are pretty common on Olds horns of that era - to the point that matching serial numbers are pretty rare, particularly in the more common configurations (M and LM bores in the Self-Balancing and Standard models).

Do you mean they came from the factory with non matching serial numbers, or that there are a lot of non original slides/bells that got swapped over time?

[JohnL]

Non-matching serials are pretty common on Olds horns of that era - to the point that matching serial numbers are pretty rare, particularly in the more common configurations (M and LM bores in the Self-Balancing and Standard models).

Do you mean they came from the factory with non matching serial numbers, or that there are a lot of non original slides/bells that got swapped over time?

I think the slides and bell sections were manufactured (and serialized) independently and then paired up at the end - possibly when they were pulled from stock for shipment.

From what I've seen, the sizes that were likely built to order (S, SM, LLM, L, and SYM) tend to have matching numbers, while the common sizes that would have been built for stock (M, LM) seldom have matching numbers. I could see a certain amount of mixing and matching happening over time, and that sort of thing would be more likely in the common sizes, but not to the degree that mismatched numbers would be the norm.

Eventually they did got rid of the issue (such as it was) by not putting a serial number on the bell sections at all.

[heldenbone]

Cleaned up the slide a little. The instrument actually sounds and feels really, really good. Just needs a better trigger gizmo and a pro slide job. Good to go.

So, how about a little more about how it plays? Some of us relics dig playing relics. My S-20 was eligible for Medicare about the same time I was.

[Leanit]

It actually has a great sound and is a nice blow. Fun to have the rich sound of the deep bell without today's modern huge handslide. I just need to get rid of it.