Not a dead horse

[bassclefbestclef]

A bit of background; I’m a low brass ’tripler’ - tenor, bass, and tuba. My primaries are bass and tuba. For several years, my bass was a Getzen 1062FDR. I started on a Bach 1 1/2G, shifted a Bach 1 1/4GM, and finally to a Wick 00AL Heritage. The Wick offered the projection and depth without sacrificing volume.

Moving forward, I sold the Getzen and picked up a Bach 50B3O. Unfortunately, I’ve struggled to find the right mouthpiece for the Bach. Here’s a list of failures:
Bach 1 1/4GM - too small and restricted, not enough depth
Wick 00AL Standard/Heritage - too muffled, stuffy
Kelly Bass Bone - too small, no depth of tone
Doug Yeo Replica - I like the sound but hard to maintain control of pitch, especially moving between instruments so frequently

I like the width, rim, and depth of the Wick but not the tone quality on the Bach. Can you help?

[ghmerrill]

Your experience and impressions are much the same as mine. You can see where I ended up. Along the way, other mouthpieces I've liked have been the Rath and the Ferguson. But one other I really like is the Stork. They have (the usual?) three different sizes of bass trombone mouthpiece, and a couple of backbores. Might be worth a look for you. And remember that you can get pieces on trial from a several places, and pay only shipping when you return them. Often worth the experimentation.

[Kingfan]

Check with Doug Elliott, a member of this group. He can put together a rim/cup/shank combo to fit you.

[SteveM]

Since the Bach has not worked for you with any mouthpiece you've tried, have you considered that it just might not be the right bass trombone for you?

[JohnL]

Gotta ask...

It sounds like you had the Getzen pretty well dialed in; why did you move to the Bach?

[ghmerrill]

Move from dependent to independent? Could affect mouthpiece performance?

[bassclefbestclef]

In regards to the switch; I wasn't playing the Getzen frequently and decided to sell it for start up cash towards a tuba purchase. Fast forward a couple years - I got a handful of bass bone gig calls and grew tired of borrowing horns. The 50B3O was available and in my price range at the time.

After reading your responses last night - I looked back at a pandemic video of an Aldcroft Jazz Duet I produced with a friend. The Bach sounds great with the Yeo - dark, full, clear articulation.

Perhaps something of similar specs but smaller throat - less taxing? Thanks for your feedback!

[Matt K]

Definitely worth taking to a tech and seeing if everything is in alignment. That can make a night and day difference

[harrisonreed]

If you are looking for a mouthpiece change, check out the Brian Hecht Audition series. Very deep but the backbore gives it clarity. It's great!

If you want to try a (nearly) free solution, try wrapping some Teflon tape on the end of the "woofy" Wick piece and let it sit 1/8" further out of the leadpipe. That might bring some focus into it, but likely will affect the upper register above F4. I always try this because it basically is free and if it doesn't work, no harm done.

[Kbiggs]

If you haven’t already, I’d start by having a tech look over the horn—check for leaks, unsoldered patches, etc. Bach QC is notoriously suspect. A valve alignment can make a big difference.

Recordings don’t lie. If you like the sound of the Yeo, then maybe that’s the mpc to use. OTOH, if the feedback isn’t “true,” it’s difficult to adjust your playing to the other musicians and the room.

Doug Elliott is as good a bet as any. Perhaps one of his 113 or 114 rims with a K, L, or M cup.

I’ve been using a Griego-Markey 87 lately. It’s about the same rim size as a Yeo, maybe slightly smaller. It has a smaller funnel and throat, the throat isn’t as long, and with a narrower backbore. Perhaps the G-M 90?

[GabrielRice]

Seems like you like the wider rim surface? One to try in the size range of the Wick is a Ferguson L - sort of a heavier 1-1/4G with a wider rim.

Doug Elliott can also take care of you, of course.

[bassclefbestclef]

I'm gonna give the Ferguson L a try. Size and rim seem to check out. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

[chouston3]

My favorite bass trombone mouthpiece was a Giddings and Webster Mark 1. Stainless steel made a big difference for me.

I tried out different bass trombone mouthpieces in front of a wall where I could get some good feedback. I could hear different things whith each piece I played but got the most colorful sound with the gw.

Then I took it home and did a comparison between pieces with a good microphone and picked my favorite two.

Finally I went to a big space with some friends and had them give opinions on what sounded best.

I have often found that what feels best does not always sound best to other people.

[Slidehamilton]

I would highly recommend trying warburton. Great 'pieces!

[GGJazz]

Hi all.
Hi Bassclefbestclef.

The Denis Wick 00AL is indicated (by the Wick mpcs label) as a contrabass trbn mpc , so , being designed for this instrument ( that is pitched in F and have a larger bore than bass trbn) , could not work in a bass trombone. I guess that the 00AL shank is conceived to fit the contrabass .

Maybe for same reasons it was working in the Getzen 1062FDR , but it is not much suitable on a Bach 50 .

So , if you like the Denis Wick line , I would suggest you to try the 0AL , that is a bass trbn mpc.

If you want to try to others brands , I personally suggest to you the Wedge Mouthpieces . Maybe a 114D or a S59 could be fine .

Regards
Giancarlo

[Bach5G]

I have a Wick 0AL for sale.

[dukesboneman]

I fully understand what you are going thru.
I play Tenor (Large and small), Bass , Euphonium and Tuba
Finding the right mouthpieces is a problem
For my Bass I played a Schilke 58, 59, Bach 1 1/2GM and a Ferguson.
I always felt like everything was a compromise .
A while ago at a Convention I got talk with and try Greg Black`s Mouthpieces
I ended up buying his 1 3/8G medium weight and LOVE it
I have a ton of core in my sound now, Control from High C down to pedal F
and the rim is just a hair wider and much more comfortable when switching back and forth
I`d give Greg a call. He`s extremely knowledgeable

[musicofnote]

A while ago at a Convention I got talk with and try Greg Black`s Mouthpieces
I ended up buying his 1 3/8G medium weight and LOVE it
I have a ton of core in my sound now, Control from High C down to pedal F
and the rim is just a hair wider and much more comfortable when switching back and forth

Similar experience for me with the same Greg Black 1 3/8 medium mouthpiece. I'd been playing for almost 7 years on Wedge mouthpieces. A while back I bought a GB 1 7/16 medium and it was ok, but went back to the slightly larger Wedge 110G - which I still like, BTW. And then, out of boredom, I ordered the GB 1 3/8 the beginning of December. It has comparable dimensions as the Wedge 110G.

Compared with the 1 7/16, it seems that my lips have more room to move around inside the cup and find the sweet spots of extreme high and low registers, even better than the Wedge 110 which is not bad in this respect. But the 1 7/16 seemed more limiting especially up high -. something I really didn't expect. Going into my 3rd week with the GB and I've not had an inclination to quick switch back to the Wedge to "just check out this passage".

To be fair, combining the GB 1 3/8 with the ToneHalo from CalderPips seems to be for me an ideal combination leading to great slotting, dark projecting sound with no fuzziness and just the right amount of core without seeming too "hard". And yet can get a great warm soft sound when needed.

[musicofnote]

If you are looking for a mouthpiece change, check out the Brian Hecht Audition series. Very deep but the backbore gives it clarity. It's great!

If you want to try a (nearly) free solution, try wrapping some Teflon tape on the end of the "woofy" Wick piece and let it sit 1/8" further out of the leadpipe. That might bring some focus into it, but likely will affect the upper register above F4. I always try this because it basically is free and if it doesn't work, no harm done.

On my Yamaha 822g, I have used scotch tape to do this, but it's too thin. Doubling it makes it wobbly. I switched to electrical tape, but it doesn't hold well and starts moving as I switch mouthpieces. then it doesn't seem to seal. I ordered some "teflon tape", and what I got has no adhesive on it. Is that correct? How does it stay in place and not slide around? So now I've ordered some self-adhesive teflon tape, hoping it's not too thick like the electric tape. Do you have any suggestions as to the type/brand of teflon tape and how to apply it to the mouthpiece?

Thanks is advance.

[harrisonreed]

On my Yamaha 822g, I have used scotch tape to do this, but it's too thin. Doubling it makes it wobbly. I switched to electrical tape, but it doesn't hold well and starts moving as I switch mouthpieces. then it doesn't seem to seal. I ordered some "teflon tape", and what I got has no adhesive on it. Is that correct? How does it stay in place and not slide around? So now I've ordered some self-adhesive teflon tape, hoping it's not too thick like the electric tape. Do you have any suggestions as to the type/brand of teflon tape and how to apply it to the mouthpiece?

Thanks is advance.

Scotch tape is pretty thick, and it has adhesive on it. You want the very thin white Teflon tape that has no adhesive. Starting from the bottom of the shank, you spiral the tape up the shank wrapping it over itself tightly. So each turn up should cover half of the previous width of tape. At the top, make sure the final turn is really tight. The first time you over the mouthpiece gently twist it into the leadpipe the same way the spiral goes, so you're not untwisting the tape. This will compress the tape and it will stay on the shank. You'll probably get about 1/8" using this method. If you go thicker, you'll get more "gap".

I used William H Harvey CO. PFTE Thread Seal Tape, 1/2"x260"

The thickness of the tape is probably .1mm

[musicofnote]

Hmmm - being in Switzerland perhaps the Scotch tape is thinner. In any case with Scotch tape, the mouthpiece is about .5cm further out than without it. With electrical tape, it's a good 1.25cm further out than without it, meaning it's fairly thick, thicker than the Scotch.

Now the funny thing is, today I took off all tape and played my new Griego Markey 85, my Greg Black 1 7/16, my Greg Black 1 3/8th and they actually slot better than I thought they would, although not comfortable to hold. The high B-flat pops out very nicely on all mouthpieces, where before with electric tape it was fairly hard to get to reliably speak - g upwards same. So perhaps the electric tape, although giving me the same spacing as my Wedge Remington style shaft 109, which always had a decent high b-flat, is now not inserting enough, causing the slots upstairs to disappear. So I assume the Wedge's insertion point into the receiver is not as deep as the Scotch or electric tape, yet still slots better upstairs. Confused.

What, generally speaking are the "symptoms" of a mouthpiece that:
1) inserts to far into the receiver
2) doesn't insert far enough into the receiver

Thanks for your response - waiting now for this...

[harrisonreed]

Hmmm - being in Switzerland perhaps the Scotch tape is thinner. In any case with Scotch tape, the mouthpiece is about .5cm further out than without it. With electrical tape, it's a good 1.25cm further out than without it, meaning it's fairly thick, thicker than the Scotch.

Now the funny thing is, today I took off all tape and played my new Griego Markey 85, my Greg Black 1 7/16, my Greg Black 1 3/8th and they actually slot better than I thought they would, although not comfortable to hold. The high B-flat pops out very nicely on all mouthpieces, where before with electric tape it was fairly hard to get to reliably speak - g upwards same. So perhaps the electric tape, although giving me the same spacing as my Wedge Remington style shaft 109, which always had a decent high b-flat, is now not inserting enough, causing the slots upstairs to disappear. So I assume the Wedge's insertion point into the receiver is not as deep as the Scotch or electric tape, yet still slots better upstairs. Confused.

What, generally speaking are the "symptoms" of a mouthpiece that:
1) inserts to far into the receiver
2) doesn't insert far enough into the receiver

Thanks for your response - waiting now for this...

I would say 5mm is way too much but for the Xeno bass that's close to what I was doing.

Electrical tape? Like the black sticky kind? No way! You need the white PFTE tape that comes in the little plastic spool. I suspect that no adjustment is necessary for you if you think it's better without the tape. That's the case most of the time, after all. I only put out the suggestion in regards to the Wick mouthpiece, since that seemed like it already wasn't working for the OP.

So, as for the "symptoms" that I've noticed, if a mouthpiece goes in too far there will be no feeling of resistance in the horn. It will feel too open and you will need to force the sound with your face.

If it is too far out, there will be quite a lot of resistance and the lower register may seem extremely easy, but as you noticed the upper register will not slot. The intonation will be wonky.

Like Matt Walker has pointed out, this has to do with changing the existing distance between the mouthpiece throat and leadpipe venturi, which is different from simply noticing that a mouthpiece goes further into, say, the Yamaha Xeno than other brands and assuming that it's wrong.

[musicofnote]

Yes, especially with the Markey, the horn "opened" up. Threw me for a loop the first time I played it without tape. But I got used to it and that doesn't bother me, which is comforting. The lower register is extremely good with both Greg Blacks and Markey. I do need to concentrate more on it with the Remington Style shaft, but those low Cs dow to pedal F still bark, when required, but my endurance down there is not as good as with the GB and Markey.

Well, I played my Wedges with tape (except the Remington style, of course) for several years and got used to their "difficult high register" except always wanted something better, which is why I'm trying the Gb and Markey. I think I just need some time with one consistent "system" and see how it ends up.

Thanks so much for your help!!

[GGJazz]

Hello all.
Hello Musicofnote.

Did you have ever tried the Wedge BT large shank on your mpcs ?
It is conceived for the horns in which the mpc is going too far into the receiver.
I have this kind of shank for my King Duo Gravis bass trbn , and it works perfectly .

Regards
Giancarlo

[musicofnote]

Hello all.
Hello Musicofnote.

Did you have ever tried the Wedge BT large shank on your mpcs ?
It is conceived for the horns in which the mpc is going too far into the receiver.
I have this kind of shank for my King Duo Gravis bass trbn , and it works perfectly .

Regards
Giancarlo

Hi!

LOL - I've played Wedges since around 2016. The last one I ordered was a special 109 Hybrid, which works very well. I played a brass 110G Gen 2 (.300" throat) and I always felt is was a tad too large, but the .280" throat closed up on me upstairs. The 108G Gen 2 (.300) was my go-to for when I feel I need a Bach 1.5G feel/sound. But the 109G (.300) Hybrid with Remington style BT shaft was great. I also have a Wedge 110G Gen 2 Hybrid BT.

Just a couple of years ago I bought a Hecht Audition 1.0 (I think - the 28.0 model) but the shaft wobbled in my Yamaha 822G, so I sent it Back to Thomann as one can, if it doesn't work. Now, again out of curiosity, I bought a Greg Black 1 7/16G medium and a 1 3/8 medium and ... love them. I bought a B-stock Griego Markey 85 from Thomann and compared it to the Greg Blacks and my Wedges. in terms of sound and response, the Wedges are still excellent, but the Greg Blacks are even better - for me. The Markey, as much as I wanted to like it, responds almost too quickly for me, which makes - for me - legato playing rough, and the Greg Black 1 3/8 gives me the same type of articulation as the Wedges, with a silkier sound or more broad/dark sound when loading up for bear (Bruckner/Mahler). Now the GB 1 7/16 is taking over the Bach 1.5G role - nice, nimble, but lacks the weight for the big literature.

I'm familiar with your custom Wedge model, and even if it seems I'm getting able to come to grips with "larger" diameters, a 114 is still waaaay outta my weight class, so to speak. What I'm not going to do is get rid of the remaining Wedges I still have. They're good enough that ... ya never know. Like I still hang onto my Yamaha 58, which for while was my go-to for light chamber music that didn't go into the paddle register. Kinda like a 4th tenor part.

[Jimkinkella]

As someone who only gets called to play bass as a band’s last resort, (99% small bore) the Doug Elliott stuff is pretty great, and fairly easy to dial in.
I do have a Greg Black 1-3/16 and a funky custom thing, but Doug’s inventory makes it pretty easy to figure stuff out.