Rath R3F Opinions/Thoughts/Advice?

[mjgeorge]

I spend most of my playing time on 2nd/3rd trombone parts in a big band, but I also play in more classically oriented brass ensembles as well as wind ensembles and occasionally orchestras. I'm currently looking for a trombone that is flexible enough to be useable in all of these settings with the possible exception of the orchestra as I have a Bach 42G with a Thayer valve for that. I currently play most of the time on a Yamaha .525 trombone (YSL-645 slide and YSL-646 gold/rose bell) that I've had since high school back in the 80's. Although it's showing it's age, that horn does a lot of things I like - it's quite flexible and the sound is malleable enough to work well with various styles of music. However, the lower registers and especially the valve are a little stuffy. I'd also like something that would support both small and large shank lead pipes.

I'm very interested in a Rath R3F with a Hagmann valve but have no way to audition them as the only dealers are far away. I may have a dealer in my town that could order one, but they wouldn't really be capable of ordering lots of parts for me to audition. While I know this a highly individualistic thing, I'm looking for help in narrowing down the options to those that might best fit my playing situation - a combination that would work well in multiple styles/settings. I'm really open to any thoughts/opinions/ideas/advice anyone is willing to offer.

[BGuttman]

Have you had the valve alignment of your 646 checked with a borescope? If the alignment of the rotor is off even by just a little you can get the stuffiness you describe.

On the other hand if all you want is a new horn the R3F is a good choice.

[MrBadger]

Not being able to try out all the options on the R3F is a shame, but I can say that I love all of my Rath trombones (coming from a history with Bach trombones). I would recommend you considering a Rotax valve though - easier to maintain and, for me, no noticeable playing difference.

[Matt K]

Couple of things to think about: both the R3 and your Yamaha have essentially a large bore bell section. The big downside you mentioned to the Yamaha is that it has a stuffy low range though. There’s no reason your Yamaha shouldn’t have a good low range, I do second the recommendation to have it properly serviced (ensure it’s clean, does not have leaks, is in proper alignment, the rotor bearings are properly tight and the rotor itself is sealed).

That said, the large leadpipe is a nice option. A little redundant given you have a 42. You probably don’t want to be switching out the pipe too frequently, eg. I’d recommend not swapping it out during a gig, personally.

If might suggest trying to make sure the Yamaha is in good repair and, if that does solve some of your problems, look for a YSL356, which is a 500/525 dual bore and 8” bell. The slides and bells you’d have would be interchangeable and give you a lot of flexibility, though not a large shank leadpipe option (which you could do in theory but the cork barrels would need to be replaced). The smaller slide is really nice for commercial stuff you mentioned, as is the smaller bell.

If you go with the R3, I’d lean towards an 8” bell personally, since you already have a 42. Probably, two piece yellow brass, medium weight, soldered bell bead. That’s a pretty standard “middle of the road” / “everything” style bell in 2024. I don’t know Rath nomenclature but whoever you order from would know. I’d lean rotor over Hagmann for maintenance, but both play awesome. Probably a nickel crook and yellow liters on the slide.

Now, that all said, another consideration are the in vogue King 607 and 608. They’re “intermediate” horns but play way above their pay grade. They are very easy to play, have a great low range (at least all the ones I’ve played do) and work great for commercial stuff. Again, no large shank option, but they’re a fraction of the price of a Rath on the used market and I would take mine to most of the situations you mentioned, short of the wind band which I’d just use the Bach for, personally.

Final consideration, with the “boutique” makers (though you mostly hear this about Shires designs but I feel this way about the Rath designs myself too in particular), you’ll hear people suggest that they “sound” one bore size larger than they are specced. So a 508 may sound more like a 525. That’s not universal by any stretch, and given there are so many combos, you can certainly get something that isn’t like that. But a R2 with an F attachment and a Hagmann may be everything you’re looking for, not the R3. Hard to tell without being able to try them… but I find that bore sizes in that ball park (in particular 500/525 or 508/525) to be massively underrated for most of your use cases. The R2 is .510 bore, and the few I’ve played at shows and whatnot I’d personally take anywhere I’d take a 525.

[hyperbolica]

Justifying a new horn can be tough. If you want it and you can afford it, then get it.

I got to play Raths at the ATW convention. Maybe you could make plans to attend a convention where they will have a display. The R3 was my favorite horn from these shows. But judging from where you play, an R2 might be a better option, especially if you can get it with an F attachment. Thats a 510 bore, slightly larger than a 3B.

They tend to play a bit larger than the specs suggest, and the Brits still consider this Medium bore, I think.

[Doug Elliott]

I would also suggest the possibility that whatever mouthpiece you're using on the Yamaha is making the low range stuffy.

[bbocaner]

My R3F is the best playing trombone I have ever owned, and I've had nearly everything. I have 750Y 8" bell, rotax, gold brass tuning slide, yellow brass handslide, 31AL or 31 leadpipes. Note: the R3 parts I tried were very sensitive to changes in components and it didn't lock in for me until I used the gold brass tuning slide. I don't play it very often because I play large bore for most of the playing I do, but I adore it and would play it a ton if the types of playing I did suited it better.

[mjgeorge]

Thanks for all the thoughtful advice, everyone! I've got a lot to think about for sure. Good thing I'm not in a huge rush. I will have to look into options on a good tech in the Grand Rapids MI area to check out the Yamaha. I think I also need to have the slide checked out. The action is fine but I wonder about red rot in the outer slide.

I will definitely have to consider the R2 more. I hadn't thought of that option as I had no idea you could get one with an F-attachment. Sure enough, you can order one from Austin Custom Brass with a valve - they refer to it as a Voigt valve section. Anyone familiar with this? If I were to go this route, any opinions on 7.5" vs 8" bell size on an R2?

The other reason I hadn't really considered something like an R2F is that I actually have three horns. I've got a Bach 42 with gold brass bell and Thayer valve, the Yamaha 646, and a King 2B. Typically when I'm playing 2nd in the big band I use the 2B but I find it too small and it's not a great match for me. I use the 646 when I play 3rd part. I go back and forth between the 42 and the 646 when playing in brass ensembles or wind ensembles. I'd like to simplify down to two primary horns. Originally, I was thinking of an R3F that would work for all the 3rd bone big band and classical stuff, and some other jazz trombone. But now I'm wondering if it might be better to keep the Bach and replace the 646 and 2B with something like the R2F.

Also, as far as mouthpieces, I use a Yamaha 51B on the 646. When playing my 2B I'm using a Bach 7C (although I also have a King 11M and some SC26 made in Germany). On my Bach 42 I use a Doug Elliot 101-rim/LTG-cup/.G8-shank (I also have a Bach 5Gs and a 3G). I must confess to being a "dummy" when it comes to the world of mouthpieces. Again, open to any advice here as well.

[Matt K]

Voight makes great valves. It would be a rotary section, which I find to work really well on smaller bore sizes. Although I have played a great Hagmann on a smaller bell once.... which they at least used to offer (probably would still if you were okay waiting too fwiw). IIRC it and the Voight for that bore size are .530", which is the same as the King 3BF/607 rotor.

Both bell sizes work for that bore size, the King 3BF has an 8" bell, the Bach 16M has a 7.5" bell. I love my 7.75" bell, it splits the difference nicely. If you want something with a little bit broader sound 8", if you are thinking more towards a commercial horn the 7.5 might be better. Though if they offer 7.75" I'd give that some serious consideration. The horn I was referring to is a franken 500/525 with a Getzen 3508Y bell on it and like I said, I would take it anywhere I'd feel comfortable taking a medium bore. It's absolutely the goldilocks size for me.

If you already have an Elliott piece, you might want to consider using that rim for your commercial stuff too, but with a smaller cup. I find that I lose absolutely nothing on the high range by using a "larger" rim, but gain nearly an entire usable octave on the low end.

[OneTon]

I have an LT42AG with a Hagmann. I got it close to when they first came out. The transition between f and Bb sides is seamless. I have no service issues. It probably took me longer to master same day switches between the 42 and and a 2B than the 42 and Duo-Gravis. One day it “popped.” I then had mastered how to blow through a 2B. Doyt. I am still learning, but at least not fighting it now. I use a Mount Vernon 11C. 2B works fine on big band 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. And better than an 88H. I prefer it when my 2nd player uses his 2B. I tried Rath at an ITF. They’re okay. If the Yamaha valves are properly aligned, a mouthpiece change might solve the stuffiness, as recommended by Doug Elliott (and Renold Schilke).

What you have is covering the bases better than what you’re thinking about.