New York

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harrisonreed
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Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

Kbiggs wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:26 am
harrisonreed wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:27 pm Have you been on tour with a band or large ensemble before?
Yep. And I’m one of those guys that didn’t hit on anyone else, and if anyone else hit on me, I ignored it. But that’s me. My operating system is a little different.
Right, not talking about that -- that's how it is for most people on tour. Most people act relatively tame. That isn't unique.

I'm talking about how chatty people get on tour.

But to your point, there is simply no way for any of us to really know what happened or what people actually knew. I'd be surprised if the rumors weren't making the rounds, and I'll leave my point at that.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tbdana
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Re: New York

Post by tbdana »

I've been on tour a LOT (though back in the stone age), and there are no secrets on the road.
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officermayo
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Re: New York

Post by officermayo »

One a tour bus, someone in the back seat can fart, and by the time it wafts to the front everyone knows what the perpetrator had for lunch.

The adage "What happens on the road STAYS on the road" is a myth.
Last edited by officermayo on Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

Kbiggs wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:26 amSide note: It’s deplorable how humanity has, throughout history, accepted the reprehensible and criminal behavior of some people because they’re artists, or politicians, or teachers, or leaders.
It's not that they're artists, or politicians, or teachers, or leaders (or athletes, for that matter). It's that they are perceived as being exceptionally talented - the very best of the very best. Rather than settle for someone infinitesimally less talented, institutions will not only tolerate abhorrent behavior, but will actively seek to cover it up.
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Re: New York

Post by Mikebmiller »

In a similar vein, did anybody else see the news on Demondrae Thurmon yesterday?
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King2bPlus
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Re: New York

Post by King2bPlus »

See the story of Claire Pollack and Demondrae Thurman.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: New York

Post by LeTromboniste »

Another awful, awful story (and once again just the tip of the iceberg).

The two stories intersected again as Joe Alessi commented "Don't understand how ANYONE would violate the sacred bond between student and teacher" and Claire Pollock called him out on his responsibility, given his unique position of power in the brass world, to kill that culture and create change with action rather than words, instead of continuing to collaborate with known abusers. Claire Pollock is a fearless badass.

I'm curious to know where Alessi's "sacred bond" was when he let his own student get denied tenure as his associate merely for supporting a colleague victim of sexual assault. And I guess, given how he publicly endorsed him as late as last summer, that the "sacred bond" between him and his former student Massimo La Rosa trumped the same "sacred bond" between La Rosa and the students he assaulted or attempted to assault?
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elmsandr
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Re: New York

Post by elmsandr »

King2bPlus wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:09 pm See the story of Claire Pollack and Demondrae Thurman.
This hurts. I’ve known Demondrae for years… until the last 48hours or so I was looking forward to seeing my friend in a couple of days now. He is obviously no longer welcome in the venue, but it now raises the question for me…. Was any of this happening while I was around? I did not see it, but to point out the obvious, I am not a young woman. Her descriptions of his charisma and fun in public match what I would see, but that next step into the private location was never shown to me… but I’m not the target, am I?

Truly painful to think this could be happening AND be done by somebody I would have thought was out there trying to make the world better. I hope he gets everything he deserves and more for this breach.

Really at a loss here, but I hope in my circles at least we have a much more open and raw conversation about how this happens and how it can be prevented.
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Re: New York

Post by Wilco »

LeTromboniste wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 6:03 am Another awful, awful story (and once again just the tip of the iceberg).

The two stories intersected again as Joe Alessi commented "Don't understand how ANYONE would violate the sacred bond between student and teacher" and Claire Pollock called him out on his responsibility, given his unique position of power in the brass world, to kill that culture and create change with action rather than words, instead of continuing to collaborate with known abusers. Claire Pollock is a fearless badass.

I'm curious to know where Alessi's "sacred bond" was when he let his own student get denied tenure as his associate merely for supporting a colleague victim of sexual assault. And I guess, given how he publicly endorsed him as late as last summer, that the "sacred bond" between him and his former student Massimo La Rosa trumped the same "sacred bond" between La Rosa and the students he assaulted or attempted to assault?
This is disappointing…. https://www.facebook.com/share/p/iFUzA74epHgb4cdy/?
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Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

elmsandr wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 7:57 am This hurts. I’ve known Demondrae for years… until the last 48hours or so I was looking forward to seeing my friend in a couple of days now. He is obviously no longer welcome in the venue, but it now raises the question for me…. Was any of this happening while I was around? I did not see it, but to point out the obvious, I am not a young woman. Her descriptions of his charisma and fun in public match what I would see, but that next step into the private location was never shown to me… but I’m not the target, am I?
Predators are generally really good at "reading the room". They'll start small and gradually escalate until they see people around them getting uncomfortable, then back down a notch or two. Once they've learned where the line is, they'll start working on moving the line. It's a slow process, but predators are very patient. Eventually, an action that was formerly seen as crossing the line begins to be normalized. This is one of the concepts that was part of my annual "Mandated Reporter" training when I was working at a public school.
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DougHulme
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Re: New York

Post by DougHulme »

John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug
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JohnL
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Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

DougHulme wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 1:21 am John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug
I'm not talking about grooming victims (though that's certainly a big part of the equation); I'm talking about how they use similar techniques on the people around them to desensitize them to behavior that would otherwise raise warning flags.

You see a total stranger who is "handsy" and you immediately think it's a little off, but if it's someone you know well (or THINK you know well) who behaves like that with pretty much everyone, you're apt to dismiss it as "just them being them".
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Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:08 am
Kbiggs wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:26 am

Yep. And I’m one of those guys that didn’t hit on anyone else, and if anyone else hit on me, I ignored it. But that’s me. My operating system is a little different.
Right, not talking about that -- that's how it is for most people on tour. Most people act relatively tame. That isn't unique.

I'm talking about how chatty people get on tour.

But to your point, there is simply no way for any of us to really know what happened or what people actually knew. I'd be surprised if the rumors weren't making the rounds, and I'll leave my point at that.
Ah, I get it. I’m one of the people who would hear the rumour last, after everyone else (except the Director or the prof on college tours).
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elmsandr
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Re: New York

Post by elmsandr »

JohnL wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 8:08 am
DougHulme wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 1:21 am John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug
I'm not talking about grooming victims (though that's certainly a big part of the equation); I'm talking about how they use similar techniques on the people around them to desensitize them to behavior that would otherwise raise warning flags.

You see a total stranger who is "handsy" and you immediately think it's a little off, but if it's someone you know well (or THINK you know well) who behaves like that with pretty much everyone, you're apt to dismiss it as "just them being them".
Right. For example, there’s another picture of Demondrae with another woman on the various FB posts. There’s a real good chance that I’m within 25’ of that photo, depending on when it was taken. I know there’s probably a photo of him with his arm around me giving me a kiss on the cheek as well. It was not uncommon. Never saw anything like the twerking mentioned, but plenty of dancing so I don’t doubt it happened later. For myself and probably almost all the others that experienced it… we weren’t the targets, were we? That was it, the extent. We had fun with a charismatic person and then we both left. It had never occurred to me that this ended any other way for others there.

Really struggling with the amount of discussion around “everybody knew” …. The F$&#< ? I didn’t. Not even a hint.

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Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

Wilco wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 10:31 am
This is disappointing…. https://www.facebook.com/share/p/iFUzA74epHgb4cdy/?
Re: my earlier statement about complicity:

The link Wilco shared shows that Alessi was aware (could not have been unaware?) of some of these goings on. He was certainly aware that his former pupil La Rosa was accused of various assaults and affairs, continued to work with him, and make concert appearances with him. And it thus seems much more likely he was aware of Muckey’s repugnant behavior.

A related note:

Disclaimer: I’m not excusing the beavhior of any of perps mentioned. I’m certainly not excusing any of the harrassment that Daemondrae Thurman inflicted on Deni Travis (read the link), or Muckey, or Wang, or any of the “bros” who have assaulated, harrassed, badgered, or “teased” anyone who is not a “bro.”

Having previously worked as a drug and alcohol counselor (in private settings and in community health settings), I’ve heard and seen a lot of shocking, disgusting, and horrible things. One normal human reaction to watching someone harass, badger, pester, even assault someone else is disbelief: “I can’t believe this is happening right in front of my eyes.” It’s the kind of shock where your mind is trying to process that something like this can actually happen, that one human being can actually do something like that to another human being. It’s not that a person can’t believe it. It’s that it’s almost unthinkable that one person would deliberately harm another person. There are many other cognitive and emotional reactions, of course, but shock is one that can make us almost paralyzed with disbelief in these kinds of situations.

That shock, however, is only an explanation for the immediate reaction, as if to say, “I didn’t do anything at first because I couldn’t believe what was happening.” After that initial moment of shock, however, anyone—everyone—who sees it is morally obliged to do something, to intervene, to make it stop.

I get it: it takes courage to intervene in this kind of situation. Also, who wants to get between the bully who is harassing or assaulting someone, and risk personal bodily harm? But if not you, then who?

The type of assault and predatory behavior from some of these “Brass Bros” isn’t always out in public, like Thurman’s twerking. When it is, it only takes one person to call it out to allow others to get over their own shock. When it’s not, we are again morally obliged to help those who need help.

If you see something, say something or do something. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Kenneth Biggs
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
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