Bass trombone sound concept: Classical vs Jazz

[ghmerrill]

I have to wonder if it may have something to do with the average age of audience members.

[Doug Elliott]

In live situations you can almost never trust the mics/sound system/sound engineer to balance ANYTHING properly.
In a studio it's totally different... you can't be second-guessing the person running it.

[Burgerbob]

Venues in LA are also not very large. Similar to NYC, you aren't there in a tiny club trying to push the audience out with sound pressure.

[ithinknot]

When the Artie Shaw band was going (I played lead for about 17 years at the end of the era), there were certain sections of tunes where the entire band would play softer than I had ever experienced in any group, any genre.

Something that Basie really got right too... if the quiet stuff is properly quiet, the impact of loud is so much greater when it happens. Maximizing perceived dynamic range is interesting, maximizing the ceiling not so much.

[tbdana]

Big bands in LA do not play loud most of the time. I love it. Music can happen, not just decibels.

My experience was back when the earth's crust was still cooling, but the best big bands I played with in L.A. played really freakin' loud. They just didn't overblow their horns, and it didn't sound like they were playing as loud as they were, but it was very loud.

I think the loudest one was probably Les Hooper's band one night when the trumpet section was Rick Baptist, Walt Johnson, George Graham, and Dan Fornero in a small club on Ventura Blvd called Catalina's. It was nuts that night. My ears still rang the next day.

[2bobone]

Just my 2 cents : "Slamming" a note shut with your tongue is one of the most destructive brass playing practices imaginable. It tightens and stresses every physical component involved in delivering air to your instrument. I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section. Air is the fuel of sound. No air, no sound. Simple !

[Fridge]

Just don’t overthink everything you do. Play in tune, play in time with a good sound. Know the difference between Basie and Beethoven. I see overthinking CONSTANTLY on this website. Horns, mouthpieces, lead pipes, etc. Sometimes I think you should just give it a rest and go practice……..

Fridge

[harrisonreed]

Just my 2 cents : "Slamming" a note shut with your tongue is one of the most destructive brass playing practices imaginable. It tightens and stresses every physical component involved in delivering air to your instrument. I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section. Air is the fuel of sound. No air, no sound. Simple !

It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.

It should be a targeted effect, not something you do on every note.

[tbdana]

Just don’t overthink everything you do. Play in tune, play in time with a good sound. Know the difference between Basie and Beethoven. I see overthinking CONSTANTLY on this website. Horns, mouthpieces, lead pipes, etc. Sometimes I think you should just give it a rest and go practice……..

Fridge

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Overthinking is what we do on social media. That's about all there is to do on social media. But in real life, and especially in playing trombone, it is the death of excellence.

[tbdana]

It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.

thank you harry.gif

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[elmsandr]

Why would I need to expand it?

I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.

fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg

The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.

Just a note, I’d wager the last couple of inches of most leadpipes is in fact cylindrical. You’d have to trim quite a bit off to get into the taper.

Last one I measured (a longer pipe, but still) had over 3” of cylindrical at the end. And yes, this length still does matter. Why else do they sell regular and long leadpipes of the same size and taper? You can see (roughly) how long the cylindrical part is by seeing what actually contacts the inside of the inner slide. Not exact, but you get the idea.

Cheers,
Andy

[harrisonreed]

Interesting!!

I would think the longer ones would let you get a slower taper, but I believe you that some pipes have that at the end. It would help keep it stable, too.

[elmsandr]

Interesting!!

I would think the longer ones would let you get a slower taper, but I believe you that some pipes have that at the end. It would help keep it stable, too.

You can get a longer taper in a longer pipe, but noting some manufacturers out there… then it wouldn’t be a T2 and a T2L, they’d be different

And yes, that ‘stability’ is a great descriptor when it works…can also tighten and feel constraining if it doesn’t.

Somewhat back on topic, I trimmed off bass leadpipe to where the taper ended to made a completely smooth transition…. Well, I made a great buzz aid for my car. Do not recommend for use in a horn.

Cheers,
Andy

[imsevimse]

About stopping the tone with the tongue, in some bands it is an agreed style. In some other bands it is not. It is a quite audioble difference. The Baise clip above says it all. Most players can not cut of like that whout using the tonguestop. But if you can, well go for it.

not a brass instrument, but it is the same style sometimes.

That was a reallly good video about toungestops and where it is appropriate. It's not a tangent because it is one tool more for the concept of jazz and maybe not so much for classical , but I'm sure someone can think of use also in classical music, maybe in some modern music with effects. Use a tool if it sounds good. Anything that sounds good is good if you can make it work for you.

/Tom

[Kbiggs]

Why would I need to expand it?

I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.

fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg

The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.

If you cut a leadpipe in half along the length of it, you’ll see it does have an hourglass-like shape to it, whether it’s drawn or seamed and formed. Many people assume that a leadpipe is simply a tube to fit the mouthpiece: the mouthpiece fits into the tube, and that the mouthpiece is the only venturi in the first part of the instrument.

The leadpipe is not simply an extension of the mouthpiece. It has its own venturi. The venturis (venturas? venturæ?) in the first yard of the trombone are the lips, the throat of the mouthpiece, and then the throat (venturi) of the leadpipe.

I cut some off the end of an old leadpipe. I had an old Bach 50 leadpipe that was slightly corroded, so I trimmed about 1/4” from the end. I used that for many years when I was playing heavier equipment. With lighter equipment, I’m now on a standard 50 leadpipe. The trimmed 50 takes just a wee bit more air, and it tends to produce a lot core and a very dark sound—but it has an immediacy of attack. It can take some sloppiness. The stock 50 has ever-so-slightly less core, more stability, a few more upper frequencies to the sound. Less room for error.

When I bought an Edwards tenor, Christan fitted me with a leadpipe that had about 5/8” trimmed from the bottom. It was developed for an artist—trombone professor in Texas, lots of students, name escapes me… Anyhow, on tenor and with that set-up, it took the “bubble” off the initial attack. Doing an A-B comparison in the Edwards shop and at home, it was really an eye-opener.

It’s amazing how such a small bit of metal can make such a huge difference in the feel and sound.

[TomInME]

I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section.

Maybe the conductor wanted a percussive sound? There's some orchestral music (mid 20th-century?) where that would be entirely consistent with what the composer intended.
Please be clear if you're judging the conductor's musical choices as wrong for that particular context vs declaring a particular performance technique invalid everywhere.

In a performance context, I do whatever is necessary to get the correct result on the other side of the bell. (I occasionally succeed) In jazz, that generally means strongly rhythmic articulations, often in the form of very very short notes. For me, that requires fairly sharp tongue attacks and tongue stops. I will also note that this is a bass trombone thread, and it's more difficult to be as crisp as the smaller-bore instruments - tongue is often necessary for some people (definitely me).

I fully believe Doug when he says he can get very very short notes without a tongue stop (the Artie Shaw book had plenty), and I doubt any of us could hear a difference. (and if you can't hear a difference, there is no difference) However, a lot of players can't, and might benefit from tongue stopping if they can get past that pedantic "tongue stops are BAD" mentality.

That was the point I was trying to make originally: if you're not playing short enough without tongue stops, maybe you need them, and in jazz they're generally accepted. Hanging over is NOT.

[Redthunder]

It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.

It should be a targeted effect, not something you do on every note.

Nobody said it's not a legit part of commercial playing. Doug is just saying it's entirely possible to do it without tongue stops... and he's right. It takes practice like anything else, and it has made my trombone playing better all around.

[harrisonreed]

I wasn't quoting Doug, now was I? This is absurd. And it's just a tiny part of the overall discussion.

[Redthunder]

I wasn't quoting Doug, now was I? This is absurd

I still don't see where anybody said it so... Sorry?