German mouthpieces

[Ogmusicteacher]

Both of the W.C. Schmidt “Kruspe” and “Penzel” mouthpieces seem to be very popular with owners of German instruments. I haven’t had a chance to try either, but can you describe some differences when used in a large bore (Heckel) tenor? My semi-pro orchestra plays a lot of Classical (we did Mozart’s Requiem last month) and early Romantic (Beethoven #5 In the Fall).

Thanks very much.

[musicofnote]

Unless you learn the intricacies of the German articles (die, der and das and their accusative, dative and genitive forms) your German mouthpiece will not close to being original. And don't forget the Umläute.

The above is only partly tongue-in-cheek. The other part has to do with the actual tongue-in-mouth - how Germans articulate when playing those instruments with their mouthpieces. Each language produces it's sounds differently in the mouth than others, which does more than anything else to account for accents in a foreign language than anything else - not even melodic feel for the language. My poor Swiss wife has to deal with this with my questions and even then, her answers only directly have to do with her specific Swiss German dialect - which is NOT the dialect spoken where we live - not even close. I know for a fact, that while she swears she rolls her "r" in the front, in other areas of Switzerland, the "r" is rolled in the back of the tongue, like gargling. And then you have to know when you enunciate the ""r" at all and when it's glossed over. She swears it's always enunciated in her dialect, while I know from lectures, that this is not the case in many Hochdeutsch dialects. The placement of the tip of the tongue for a German-language "t" and "d" is not the same, nor with the same pressure as with American english, not to mention British English or Indian English. And softer consonants like "l" are directly effected by what immediately follows, so the "L" in Leberwurst is not the same "L" as "Lapses". Neither where the tongue hits the roof of the mouth, nor with how much pressure. So when a German learns to play his/her instrument in his/her mother tongue, the results will be different due to linguist difference, than when you learned playing in your mother tongue.

[Ogmusicteacher]

Thanks, musicofnote - guess I'll have to work on my Dresden accent, at least until I buy another horn.

[musicofnote]

My way too wordily made point is, that just using a German mouthpiece on a German horn is not a guarantee, that you will get a German sound - not even mentioning in German playing style. not the same as so-called US style.

[RustBeltBass]

My way too wordily made point is, that just using a German mouthpiece on a German horn is not a guarantee, that you will get a German sound - not even mentioning in German playing style. not the same as so-called US style.

How would you summer up what both German Sound and German Style are to you ?

[musicofnote]

My way too wordily made point is, that just using a German mouthpiece on a German horn is not a guarantee, that you will get a German sound - not even mentioning in German playing style. not the same as so-called US style.

How would you summer up what both German Sound and German Style are to you ?

I wouldn't "summer" it up. I would rather "fall" it up or "spring" it up. My favourite times of the year to visit Germany. If you want to "hear" the German style, drag out some of the older recordings of Vienna or Berlin conducted by Karajan - more available than most others of the period, because he was a media-nut. Personally, I never considered it much because living in Switzerland, my teachers oriented themselves on French playing and also on Slokar. I much preferred the Fench style since it was more similar to how I learned to play the trumpet, technically and musically, in the US. But I did get to play with some who'd learned in Germany from the old Meister, who had a very distinct manner of articulation. In any case, you can see by my instrument and mouthpieces choices and despite being pretty much bilingual, I'm not an expert in German style brass playing.

Maybe this can help you:
viewtopic.php?t=2366

[Ogmusicteacher]

Thanks for all the comments on German Style playing, but I’m still curious about these two mouthpieces.

[RustBeltBass]

How would you summer up what both German Sound and German Style are to you ?

I wouldn't "summer" it up. I would rather "fall" it up or "spring" it up. My favourite times of the year to visit Germany. If you want to "hear" the German style, drag out some of the older recordings of Vienna or Berlin conducted by Karajan - more available than most others of the period, because he was a media-nut. Personally, I never considered it much because living in Switzerland, my teachers oriented themselves on French playing and also on Slokar. I much preferred the Fench style since it was more similar to how I learned to play the trumpet, technically and musically, in the US. But I did get to play with some who'd learned in Germany from the old Meister, who had a very distinct manner of articulation. In any case, you can see by my instrument and mouthpieces choices and despite being pretty much bilingual, I'm not an expert in German style brass playing.

Maybe this can help you:
viewtopic.php?t=2366

Thank you for that, that was interesting. I do have a bit of German background and maybe a tiny bit of expertise, given that I spent the first 25 years of my life there, studied in Berlin in a rather progressive trombone studio and played two years in what by many is considered one of the most traditional German orchestras, the Staatskapelle Dresden as an academist, followed by one season as acting bass trombonist
in a smaller German orchestra.

When I moved to the USA, friends and colleagues at gigs (and in bars) would sometimes ask me about what German style is or which US orchestra in my opinion sounds most German.

I never knew what to answer to that. I could elaborate experiences in the two German orchestras I played with and just HOW different it was from the one time I played with another "very German orchestra" but only to underline my point that I do not recall ever having been asked to adjust to or play something in a "German style". I often felt that when chatting with US players about this, they were referencing to a color of sound (bright/dark). Given that it is continuosly part of orchestra recording reviews/posts in forums, Blogs etc. there must be something there, but I never felt able to break it down to a few general statements and always try to fogure out what that term means to others.


Sorry for this long odd topic post. Back to topic, lets finally compare those dang mouthpieces !!! OP, I do not know the answer to your question but if you send me a PM, I can bring
you in touch with someone who defintely can help you.

[musicofnote]

Like I wrote, the topic doesn't realy interest me much any more since I live in Switzerland and in terms of brass, we orient more towards France with an old Slokar influence. Here, his mouthpieces are still popular, especially amongst older players. And his style of playing is rather harsh, forward in his mouth. But the instruments played here in Switzerland are generally all US or French style with the exception of Kühnl & Hoyer, which I wouldn't call a pure German horn. A few trumpet players I know prefer German side-winders, but that's about it. And I'm 71 and don't perform in public any more, so can afford to ... do whatever TF I wanna. (big grin)

When I was performing, I never had complaints about my playing from the Swiss trombonists. They were a little jealous, that my legato/slurs were trumpet like. No wonder there, because trumpet was my main instrument. The old Meister at the conservatory, with whom they'd all studied, was an Austrian from Vienna, so I guess their manner of legato was still rather pointed, while mine approached an almost non-aural slur. There was one guy, who was kind of a rival, who never accepted me as a trombone player, because I'd started at the same school he taught at, as a trumpet teacher. "Cecil isn't a trmbone player, he's a trumpet player who messes with trombone" without ever having heard me or played with me. But the rest, if they had held that opinion, didn't any more once they'd played with me.

I do have to add, that I learned trombone, or was introduced to it, in Cincy, where I got my B.M.E. Old school American I guess. We were told to move the slide fluidly in fast passages, letting the tongue glide over the point on the moving slide where the note could be found, using a kind of la "stroke". We were told not to jump jerkin from position to position, the teacher remarking that there were 57 position, not 7 (if I remember that correctly(, so when speaking with my Swiss teacher and watching/listening to him play, when Sloakr was THE guy, the slide motion was very jerky, like Slokar's is. I would constantly cause him to shake his head with my slide techinque "Buzz, I have no idea how you do it because the intonation is fine, the articulations are clean, but there is no physical way that's possible the way you're moving the slide." I only took lessons from him, when I'd quit the trumpet, and after a break of almost 10 years wanted to play SOMETHING again and thoought trombone would be good. And he saw in me a challenge to use his teaching philosophy on someone with some experience. And I'm very grateful for that. I think I would have quit if with anther teacher at the time.