Markey on developing low range

[Bach5G]

A new YT series on developing low range on bass trombone:

[RustBeltBass]

Amazing and inspiring how much knowledge and wisdom he shares with the trombone world in his free time. Very helpful !!
His sound is unbelievable.

[JeffBone44]

I can't wait to watch this one

[Bach5G]

Wk 2 is up.

[Burgerbob]

Played along with both today. Good stuff.

[JeffBone44]

I have been doing these exercises for the past week and a half and I'm already noticing a difference in my ability to keep my embouchure more stable and make less drastic movements. I play Wave every month with a big band on bass bone and this past Tuesday was the best I've ever played it - I was able to find the center of each note much more easily than in the past and more often.

I know from my lessons with Doug Elliott that I'm supposed to minimize movements as much as possible. These exercises have shown me how much I'm still moving when changing notes, even when I think I'm not. And I still have some work to do to get to where I want to be.

[Bach5G]

#3:

[Bach5G]

#4:



I’ve been doing these for the past 3 weeks with good results I think. A brief warmup and then play along with Mr. Markey. If nothing else, a nice way to start the day. Mr. Markey’s positivity is an added bonus.

[JeffBone44]

I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure. I'm doing great with Part 1 and Part 2, so I've moved onto Part 3. That's where things start to get a bit shaky. About 50% of the time I'm not able to center the notes exactly the way that I want when I slur between 3rds and 4ths. So I will stick with the Part 3 exercise for a while until my success rate improves up to at least 75%.

[timothy42b]

I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure.

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.

[JeffBone44]

I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure.

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.

The exercises start on middle F, so I'm trying to keep that same embouchure setting and extend that down into the low range. By practicing that, I'm able to minimize the movements that I have to make and still keep a good sound. This is improving my flexibility. The more I do this, the easier it will become to switch registers quickly.

[timothy42b]

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.

The exercises start on middle F,

Yes. That's too low a starting note for me in general.

[Burgerbob]

I've been following these videos and doing the exercises. My high range has gotten better from playing these. The idea is that you stay engaged with the embouchure as you play lower (something many players don't do, which means when they ascend again they are too flabby).

[JeffBone44]

I've been following these videos and doing the exercises. My high range has gotten better from playing these. The idea is that you stay engaged with the embouchure as you play lower (something many players don't do, which means when they ascend again they are too flabby).

That's definitely something to think about, and I am working on that as well. In general when switching ranges my embouchure automatically becomes flabby.

[SimmonsTrombone]

They remind me a bit of the note matching Sam Burris taught when mouthpiece buzzing.

[musicofnote]

These four videos are great - though a departure from previous videos of his where he advocates dropping the jaw and extending it forwards - "Do as much as you need and as little as you can." - for the lowest register. He also advocates - if necessary - actually moving the mouthpiece up on the lips for the lowest notes. This also changes the direction of the air-flow to being perpendicular to the ground.

And then when going back up, bringing the jaw back up and "in", and continuing this (also changes the direction of the air flow to more downwards) until getting to the top register, where the jaw is receded and one is blowing downwards as if across the chin.

So the questions for me:
1) he didn't really get into the pedal and sub-pedal registers in these 4 videos. Does he still drop/protrude the jaw and move the mouthpiece up on the lips for the pedals and sub-pedals?
...OR ...
2) has he changed his mind and is he now advocating for no motion on the lips, no motion of the jaw. He doesn't mention either in these 4 videos.

Here's someone who does advocate dropping the jaw. Don't mind his vibrato - apparently a result of age and health issues.

[musicofnote]

starting at 6’.35”

11:17 “pull my bottom lip out of the mouthpiece”
(shows bad results, which were getting better)then
13:45“running out of room for aperture” -
13:55 “slide the mouthpiece up on the upper lip”

[musicofnote]

Matt Gilford
Title: “How YOU Can Achieve ONE Embouchure in ALL REGISTERS”
(not all -except- pedals and subpedals - the title reads ALL REGISTERS, even in all caps in the YouTube title)


4’30”
“When I was in undergraduate I had a huge shift around pedal G, where I had to shift the horn and do a lot more upper lip, almost an upstream embouchure, and I decided that it’s not a tenable situation going forward. …. stretch the emboushure in the lower range so I don’t have to shift ”

[musicofnote]

cccc

[musicofnote]

Bass Trombone Low Register
(6 years ago)

0'20" "Do as much as you need and as little as you can."
Shows again - starting at 2.25, the “shift” starts on pedal g going down without a shift - the tone fades
lowest being a soft pedal d.
With his shift “… allowing myself to make a change”
diametrically opposed to Mr. Gilford.

Which is ok.

It's up to us to take what is the best for us.

[Doug Elliott]

"the “shift” starts on pedal g going down without a shift - the tone fades
lowest being a soft pedal d.
With his shift “… allowing myself to make a change”
diametrically opposed to Mr. Gilford."

No, actually that's exactly where Matt said he was as an undergrad.
Matt's learned a lot in his 33 years in the NSO.

Charlie Vernon used to shft a lot, now he doesn't. I knew him all the way back when he was in the Baltimore Symphony.

Markey's still learning.

People who advocate shifting like the instant gratification, but haven't really learned much yet.

[musicofnote]

"the “shift” starts on pedal g going down without a shift - the tone fades
lowest being a soft pedal d.
With his shift “… allowing myself to make a change”
diametrically opposed to Mr. Gilford."

No, actually that's exactly where Matt said he was as an undergrad.
Matt's learned a lot in his 33 years in the NSO.

That's what I quoted him saying my text to Mr. Gilford's video. They BOTH started their shift there. Markey showed the shift in two videos, Mr. Gilford talked about having to do it as an undergrad and realising it "wasn't tenable going forward" - so learned how to play the pedals without shifting.

What's diametrically opposed is, that Mr. Gilford decided NOT to shift anymore, whereas 6 years ago and 11 months ago, Mr. Markey identified the point where a shift -can-. be used and showed how he did/does(?) it. Mr. Gilford doesn't user or advocate any shift

What's not answered in my mind is where Mr. Markey stand now - inasmuch as his 4 video set doesn't go into the pedal range. In that 4 video set, he want no movement or shift. Does he still do it when he gets down to th pedals? He doesn't say. Do does say, that the series is finished with these 4 videos, so unless he does a new video starting where he left off, we won't know.

So, who is right?

Yes.

Whatever works for you.

What's clear is, that both gentlemen did/do a shift at around pedal g (probably before that in real life). Mr. Gilford doesn't anymore in any register. Mr. Markey made 2 videos (6 years ago and 11 months ago) saying you -can- and showing how to do it. He does NOT say (in the current 4 videos because they don't deal with the pedal register) not to shift in the pedal register.

[Burgerbob]

Well... that said a whole lot of nothing.

[musicofnote]

Markey's still learning.

People who advocate shifting like the instant gratification, but haven't really learned much yet.

Ouch - I don't think I'd have the balls to make that statement about someone, especially not Mr. Markey.

[Doug Elliott]

Well you just pointed out how his attitude has changed in 6 years. Don't you think it would be interesting to see where he is in another 6, or 20, or 30 years?

I like to use Charlie as an example. I've been watching his playing as it's evolved for 50 years.

Playing mechanics either evolve better, or fall apart. Take your choice.

[musicofnote]

Well you just pointed out how his attitude has changed in 6 years. Don't you think it would be interesting to see where he is in another 6, or 20, or 30 years?

I like to use Charlie as an example. I've been watching his playing as it's evolved for 50 years.

Playing mechanics either evolve better, or fall apart. Take your choice.

No I did NOT "pointed out how his attitude has changed in 6 years." I asked if his attitude has changed in 6 years. It hadn't between 6 years ago and 11 months ago. And he didn't cover pedals in these 4 present videos.

But here is another gentleman who obvious has, as you put it, ""People who advocate shifting like the instant gratification, but haven't really learned much yet." But alas, he never will, because he'd dead:

Alan Raph

1:00
Raised embouchure - his description and demonstration is awfully like Markey's from 6 years ago and 11 months ago. As to if Markey still advocates this - we don't know. Markey didn't cover pedals in these recent 4 videos.


But again, I wouldn't make such a bold statement about him and his "shifting ... instant gratification".
Anywho, I don't want to argue this. We'll just say, you're right, they are all wrong and I'm the wrongest. Satisfied? See, maybe I can "learn something yet".

[Doug Elliott]

You wanna bring Phil Teele into this? He advocated no shifting but never really talked about how to accomplish that.

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.

[musicofnote]

You wanna bring Phil Teele into this? He advocated no shifting but never really talked about how to accomplish that.

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.

You obviously haven't watched either the 6 year old Markey video or the 11 month old video. He did cover this in his general discussion of how in his immature (your assessment, not mine) opinion, the embouchure works.

As to Phil Teele - that's not a lot of help, and I didn't bring him up, you did. So enlighten us, inasmuch as you DO have the answer that neither Mr. Teele nor Mr. Gilford describe nor demonstrate, that Mr. Markey has and has Mr. Raph, apparently incorrectly (with instant gratification), have.

[Bach5G]

Teele has several YT videos demonstrating his approach.

[timothy42b]

.

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.

That was the reason for my question above. The idea is to connect, but not to lose the tenor range when staying in the trigger range for so long. But how to ensure?

I've done a week each of 1 and 2. A curious thing, my ear says I'm matching his pitch and my tuner says I'm flat.

[WilliamLang]

A lot of trombonists play flat, and that's usually ok. Listening to the latest round if ITF recitals, most people were under the piano tuning. I think that as orchestral and section musicians we lower our 3rds and 7ths using just intonation to make the chords ring, so often that when we play with piano we forget to be "on top" of the pitch as much as needed.

Also tuning with a tuner can be useful to find a baseline of pitch and make sure we don't drift radically far, but by itself it doesn't do a lot else. Tuning is contextual. You can be dead on at A-440 and be slightly wrong most of the time in the industry.

[WilliamLang]

The whole shifting question is interesting, but I can't see there being one universal rule for everyone, like swinging a baseball bat or throwing a football (let alone painting! we are an art as much as a physical activity.)

I like to recommend Minimal Motion for Maximum Efficiency (I've said it enough now that it's in caps), but if the sound is reliably good, reproducible, and not causing discomfort of any sort, then I don't mess much with the production unless a certain barrier or plateau is being encountered.

Jim's exercises are solid - I personally feel they might be a touch on the loud side, but it makes sense with his job.

[Burgerbob]

.

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.

That was the reason for my question above. The idea is to connect, but not to lose the tenor range when staying in the trigger range for so long. But how to ensure?

I've done a week each of 1 and 2. A curious thing, my ear says I'm matching his pitch and my tuner says I'm flat.

Mine was doing the same. I wouldn't worry so much about matching him and having it match the tuner.